Typical of the OWB industry..........

[heaterman]

I see that CB has found a way to circumvent the EPA requesting that test efficiencies be removed from websites.
Notice how they have this worded in the description of the E-Classic.


The E-Classic uses a three-stage combustion process with temperatures exceeding 2000°F to burn wood so completely that combustion efficiencies approach 100%.

 

[hobbyheater]

The old Jetstream is capable of burning smoke and is odor free. I have always assumed that the EPA ratings posted were overall heat exchange efficiencies not just combustion efficiency. Which efficiency was represented by the EPA rating ?

 

[ewdudley]

to burn wood so completely that combustion efficiencies approach 100%.

Great stuff. Of course any efficiency between 0% and 100% 'approaches 100%', so they're telling the truth by golly. And it also approaches 0%.

 

[stee6043]

Wood Gun's will "spotaneously reignite" hours after the fire goes out too. We should be outraged.

Marketing exists to find ways to compel people to buy stuff. I have yet to buy a car that meets the "EPA estimated gas mileage" under normal male driving conditions. I don't find myself losing sleep over the commercials...

 

[heaterman]

Agreed Mike. Commercials don't bother me, but the fact that people believe them does.

Was talking with a dealer for another OWB gasifier the other day who sounded a little disillusioned about the EPA PhaseII units.
He was speaking about CB's 3 stage gasification and said something to the effect, "Their 3 stage gasification works like this. Thaw off the ice and snow, get it smoldering, pray for gasification."
He was just as bummed about the performance of the unit he sold.

 

[stee6043]

I wish people as passionate and informed as Heaterman would focus their energy on bigger travesties. There are 200-300 employees of Central Boiler in Greenbush, MN that have jobs actually building something here in the United States. There are far worse and more damaging things being shipped in every single day from China and elsewhere. Let's wage a war an a Chinese manufacturer with all this energy, can we?

I have no stake in CB. I've never owned one. I hate seeing them smoke like crazy just like the rest of us. Isn't it more shameful that not a single one of us is using a USA Made PC right now? You want to see some environmental damage head on over to China and visit a few Samsung plants.

 

[heaterman]

Agreed on all the above Stee...... I have to say though that the typical American consumer does not consider these hidden but huge underlying issues when buying a product. 90%+ consider just one thing and that is initial outlay $$.$$
Until they start to make purchases based on all life cycle costs, environmental concerns, product quality and the welfare of their own country, we will not see anything change.
In the industry I am involved with (heating) I think it's a crying shame that nearly all the "good stuff" is coming from offshore. If I could source something even remotely approaching the performance and quality of a Windhager pellet boiler for example, that was built in the USA I would buy it in a heartbeat. As it stands right now there is nothing that I am aware of.

I give a lot of cred to companies like Garn and Econoburn that are trying to make a go of it building high quality products with excellent performance right here in the USA but we see examples of how people vote with their wallet right here on Hearth. Some of the Eastern European downdrafters are made in countries that are no better than China when it comes to environmental harm. Yet, because they are a couple thousand less than a US made product, guess which one gets purchased in most cases. Attitudes have to change. People have to educate themselves about the product and the company they are dealing with and then act accordingly if we have any hope of changing things. I think that if people demanded it, companies like CB would switch gears and start building products that actually perform as they should and as most people anticipate when they buy one rather than something that succeeds based on marketing and propaganda alone.

I'll never forget the keynote speech given by Dr David Suzuki at Viessmann's 25th anniversary celebration. He talked at length about this very topic and it made an indelible impression on me. When we purchase or consume something shouldn't we consider how that product was made? Shouldn't we consider the long term results of using that product? Shouldn't we adopt a best product/best life cycle decision making process when we as consumers buy something? Shouldn't we consider the environmental impact? Shouldn't we demand the best from manufacturers? One of the points he made was to ask, what real good are jobs that create environmental catastrophes? A good current illustration would be extracting oil from the tar sands in Canada. Sure, it provides thousands of jobs. Sure it provides crude oil we need. But also just as surely, it will ruin hundreds of thousands of acres of land and create a mess that someone, someday will have to clean up if it's even possible. What is the cost of that and who pays the price? We all have to start thinking about "tomorrow" and the world we leave behind for the coming generations.

We need to learn to consider all the costs, not just the one we see on the bottom line of the bill of sale.

 

[Frozen Canuck]

Germany is a decent example of a nation that is working at what HM talks about. It comes with plenty of legislation though & that likely would be a major screaming point in north america, not a discusssion point like it should be.

 

[BoilerMan]

Germany is a decent example of a nation that is working at what HM talks about. It comes with plenty of legislation though & that likely would be a major screaming point in north america, not a discusssion point like it should be.

Considereing that we the USA rebuilt Germeny after WWII and it is a semi-socialist European nation devoid of most of it's protestant history. I love German-made things look at two of the many VW/Audi's I own in my profile.

It's a tough call, we are now saving gasoline since it's almost $4/gal. $$$$ is the incentive.

If I lived in Germany, I'd not be able to install my own gasser, or own a house like I do (owner built) as I could not afford it nor would it be legal for me to do my own work..........................

TS

 

[henfruit]

I love my TDI!

 

[TheMightyMoe]

If I lived in Germany, I'd not be able to install my own gasser, or own a house like I do (owner built) as I could not afford it nor would it be legal for me to do my own work..........................

TS

Don't worry we're getting there! -_-

 

[StihlHead]

Yes yes, point and scream at all the ugly OWBs out there, and completely ignore the far far far more numerous smoke dragons and masonry fireplaces in existence. Hypocrisy prevails, as always. As do all the anti-CB posts on the web. Pile on and try to verbally **** it to death...

Here is a photo of our CB classic, in full operation, "smoking" like crazy... I was amazed at the low amount of smoke this thing produces, and I have wondered what all the hysteria was/is about these things after installing and heating with them. People obviously have nothing better to do with themselves. Sad that.

 

[Lou Okonski]

Agreed on all the above Stee...... I have to say though that the typical American consumer does not consider these hidden but huge underlying issues when buying a product. 90%+ consider just one thing and that is initial outlay $$.$$
Until they start to make purchases based on all life cycle costs, environmental concerns, product quality and the welfare of their own country, we will not see anything change.
In the industry I am involved with (heating) I think it's a crying shame that nearly all the "good stuff" is coming from offshore. If I could source something even remotely approaching the performance and quality of a Windhager pellet boiler for example, that was built in the USA I would buy it in a heartbeat. As it stands right now there is nothing that I am aware of.

I give a lot of cred to companies like Garn and Econoburn that are trying to make a go of it building high quality products with excellent performance right here in the USA but we see examples of how people vote with their wallet right here on Hearth. Some of the Eastern European downdrafters are made in countries that are no better than China when it comes to environmental harm. Yet, because they are a couple thousand less than a US made product, guess which one gets purchased in most cases. Attitudes have to change. People have to educate themselves about the product and the company they are dealing with and then act accordingly if we have any hope of changing things. I think that if people demanded it, companies like CB would switch gears and start building products that actually perform as they should and as most people anticipate when they buy one rather than something that succeeds based on marketing and propaganda alone.

I'll never forget the keynote speech given by Dr David Suzuki at Viessmann's 25th anniversary celebration. He talked at length about this very topic and it made an indelible impression on me. When we purchase or consume something shouldn't we consider how that product was made? Shouldn't we consider the long term results of using that product? Shouldn't we adopt a best product/best life cycle decision making process when we as consumers buy something? Shouldn't we consider the environmental impact? Shouldn't we demand the best from manufacturers? One of the points he made was to ask, what real good are jobs that create environmental catastrophes? A good current illustration would be extracting oil from the tar sands in Canada. Sure, it provides thousands of jobs. Sure it provides crude oil we need. But also just as surely, it will ruin hundreds of thousands of acres of land and create a mess that someone, someday will have to clean up if it's even possible. What is the cost of that and who pays the price? We all have to start thinking about "tomorrow" and the world we leave behind for the coming generations.

We need to learn to consider all the costs, not just the one we see on the bottom line of the bill of sale.

Hello Heaterman. This posting was brought to my attention by a colleague. We are starting to produce the EVOWorld boiler right here in Troy, NY. The boiler range we are producing here is 25KW-500KW in both chip and pellet, thats 80Mbtu-1700Mbtu. We currently have units in production. There is so much to say about how we fell in love with the idea of building the boilers as well as becoming partners with a couple of Austrians. Time is just a little short for me at the moment. I wanted to give you some good news fro your moral. Please take a look at our website and facebook. We are building for both the US and export market!
(broken link removed to http://www.evo-world.com/us-home.html)
https://www.facebook.com/pages/EVOWORLD/167388893320741
I am sure that we will be corresponding with you as well as others on the Hearth forum

Lou

 

[Frozen Canuck]

Considereing that we the USA rebuilt Germeny after WWII and it is a semi-socialist European nation devoid of most of it's protestant history. I love German-made things look at two of the many VW/Audi's I own in my profile.

It's a tough call, we are now saving gasoline since it's almost $4/gal. $$$$ is the incentive.

If I lived in Germany, I'd not be able to install my own gasser, or own a house like I do (owner built) as I could not afford it nor would it be legal for me to do my own work..........................

TS

Actually BoilerMan some Scandic nations (Finland IIRC + 1 other) have a system whereby journeymen are required to get around to all the DIY builds/installs & provide the DIYers with all the info on how to do a given trade properly (pretty easy with internet access) & then return at given points in the build to inspect performance of the DIYers & instruct on correction of any errors, journeymen are also required to be there on inspection dates.

From the DIYers perspective still a huge cost saving, as your still doing the work but you get the trades experience for pennies on the dollar. Journeymen earn a few bucks, generally in the evening & weekends for the extra work/time. Govt gets one or many tradepeoples tickets on the DIYers build & in general they will have far fewer bad builds. IIRC they moved this to the tax base to remove any incentive to try & bypass. If you as a DIYer have already paid for this service well no reason not to use it. Property owners who hire it all out were in favor as well when they saw a decline in the bad builds in their neighborhoods that of course brought their property values down. Sounded like a win win win to me. Better quality, little increase in costs, positive effect on property values.

No need to have somone good at putting lipstick on a pig & selling it to some poor unsuspecting soul, if you can work out a system for eliminating the pigs in the first place.

I wont hold my breath waiting for something that sensible to be adopted here. Way too many folks making good money putting lipstick on pigs & destroying someone else's lives in doing so. Aint free enterprise great!

 

[BoilerMan]

Actually BoilerMan some Scandic nations (Finland IIRC + 1 other) have a system whereby journeymen are required to get around to all the DIY builds/installs & provide the DIYers with all the info on how to do a given trade properly (pretty easy with internet access) & then return at given points in the build to inspect performance of the DIYers & instruct on correction of any errors, journeymen are also required to be there on inspection dates.

From the DIYers perspective still a huge cost saving, as your still doing the work but you get the trades experience for pennies on the dollar. Journeymen earn a few bucks, generally in the evening & weekends for the extra work/time. Govt gets one or many tradepeoples tickets on the DIYers build & in general they will have far fewer bad builds. IIRC they moved this to the tax base to remove any incentive to try & bypass. If you as a DIYer have already paid for this service well no reason not to use it. Property owners who hire it all out were in favor as well when they saw a decline in the bad builds in their neighborhoods that of course brought their property values down. Sounded like a win win win to me. Better quality, little increase in costs, positive effect on property values.

No need to have somone good at putting lipstick on a pig & selling it to some poor unsuspecting soul, if you can work out a system for eliminating the pigs in the first place.

I wont hold my breath waiting for something that sensible to be adopted here. Way too many folks making good money putting lipstick on pigs & destroying someone else's lives in doing so. Aint free enterprise great!

I'm still in the "it all sounds good" but I don't think its right. As a tradesman myself, I can say that my own home is not built "to code". It is built to my specification, and trust me its right. Now, I would not be able to do things as I wish in a Socialist or semi-socialist nation like Germany.

Codes are great, but quite flawed. As an electrician / refrigeration tradesman, I need to do many things which have no real bearing on safety or quality of install, but am legally obligated to do them by code, and I do.
In my own home, I'm not going to install electrical boxes which penetrate my air-tight building envelope, but for my conductor counts code says I need to. It's semantics to a point, but there are many things which I know I can do better than code, but if some idiot comes along and puts a screw in my drywall they will find live wire there. Long story, but it's my home, and I built it right, and I'm no idiot, but the code tries to make things "idiot proof".

Also, codes are dictated by labor unions, which write things into them which have no bearing on safety, but use more material and that comes with more labor. For instance, PVC, well the labor unions don't like it, it's too fast to install. Why must we back vent ALL fixtures and connect them in the attic? I didn't back vent everything, just the 3" trunk and everything dumps into that. No gurgles, no lost trap seals, less wasted material and labor.......oh and no frozen vents due to little flow through multiple pipes in sub-zero temps (long story). Why are mechanical vents illegal for this purpose?

I'm for things that make sense, not some conglomerate set of rules that are wasteful of material, energy, and labor from people who are more concerned about $$$$ in their own pocket than whats actually right and safe.

Bottom line:
Safety is not an absolute. And there are hacks out there, fire is one way to catch them, more rules and regs is not.

TS

 

[Frozen Canuck]

Perhaps BoilerMan one of us could start a thread on the code as this could get very lengthy & I have already strayed quite far from the OP.

For now suffice it to say that I whole heartedly disagree with the post above.

I have waited most of my adult life for the construction industry to conduct itself in a professional manner....still waiting.

More rules & regs (lots of them) is exactly what is needed, in all areas (not just the code) along with minimum educational requirements, minimum continuing educational requirements, licensing requirements that lead to professional standing in an organization that has a standard of conduct for members, E&O Ins that most professionals require (plenty of it too 3 mil minimum), liab ins again regulated minimums based on $$$$ volume of work, placement of a bond with the governing agency, the ability to lose your status based on your actions in your profession as well as your license from the governing authority & your bond $$$$....in other words screw up bad enough & you are toast, you cannot work in the same field again, not just able to file bankruptcy, avoid your creditors & start up next week under a new name & continue to screw some poor unsuspecting person with the unsatisfactory (often far below code) product one provides. Just to name a few (I have thousands more).

Please understand this is not aimed at you, just the industry in general.

Bottom line if we ever want the public to have trust in the industry we are going to have to prove ourselves worthy of that trust, right now that is not happening on this side of the pond. We in most jurisictions are not even trying.

Like you said there are hacks out there, problem is some poor soul winds up buying the trash they build then someone like me gets to give them the bad news. I am really getting tired of giving (usually a 20's - 30's first time home buyer) the bad news. Not to mention the fact that it usually financially crushes them. You see they trusted someone & thought they were buying a good structure.

Now if you are saying that we should work out a system whereby you are liable for what you do for a very long period of time, so that hacks wind up eating everything bad that they do rather that screwing someone else over....well then I am listening.

 

[BoilerMan]

Now if you are saying that we should work out a system whereby you are liable for what you do for a very long period of time, so that hacks wind up eating everything bad that they do rather that screwing someone else over....well then I am listening.

YES!! You are correct and I agree totally! I'm sorry if it seemed like a rant, but I am against hacks altogether and keeping them accountable is a GOOD THING. I just don't see much good come from rules and regs in most of the trades. Licensed people hack all the time, I see it on a daily basis as well.

I certainly agree with the construction industry and the total lack of knowledge about how to actually build something correctly, structurally sound, as well as efficient. I have seen so little correct application of vapor barrios and proper venting, and the resulting condensation and mold.

In my current trade and previously as a Master Mechanic, I go by the same mindset: Learn all you can about the process and equipment that you are working on or diagnosing then you will be able to do it again in the future. I'm a reader, and I believe through research one (even a DIY) can do excellent work. If they actually understand what they are trying to do first, many "professionals" do not even do this.

TS

 

[heaterman]

Taylor.......you ever see this website. Hilarious and sad all at the same time. The pictures vividly illustrate why a lot of the HVAC trade has a bad name.

http://hvac-hacks.com/