Upgrade advice

[edwardkelly]

Howdy folks,

I'm currently contemplating upgrading my existing fireplace insert with a stove insert. My house is heated with propane fueled forced hot air, but I'm interesting in burning more wood to reduce the amount of propane I go through. The current insert I have is similar to this one:

(broken link removed)

But is model HC 3820A, it has an external air intake but no blower attachment.

My research tells me what I have is about 40% efficient, whereas a stove could get me up to about 75% efficient.

My house is about 2000sq ft, very open plan, with the fireplace on an external wall smack in the middle. I'm not planning on the fireplace/stove being the sole source for heat, but want to be using it as my main heat source with the propane heat as supplemental heat.

I've chatted with a few people about it and estimates for a decent stove insert (installed) seem to be in the $4-6k range.

I'm perfectly fine with the 'work' associated with burning wood, I'm fairly convinced that a wood stove is what I want, so I'm not currently debating pellets vs corn vs wood etc.

Do people have any suggestions for the type of stove I should be looking for? Or whether or not they think it's worth the 'upgrade'? The efficiency improvement wouldn't be all I'd look for, things like slow burn capability are a plus (burn overnight etc).

Another option would be just to get the blower attachment for my existing fireplace insert (it's already wired up etc I'm told).

Any thoughts?

 

[edthedawg]

I'm no insert expert at all, but between my relatives who have them and my reading here, I'd think if you don't have a blower, you are losing a TON of the heat potential. Seems a shame to spend that kind of $$ when a simple blower kit should be a lot cheaper and helpful for you. Not sure if that stove offers secondary combustion - does yours have tubes/baffling for secondary comb?

Oh and $6000 is WAY high for an install, unless you're committing to some premium/cadillac stove.

What do you have for wood supply / storage? (Hint: you need more of both than you think, if you're not already familiar w/ woodburning)

 

[edwardkelly]

Yeah I was thinkign about the blower kit, I think I'll investigate. If it's something I can add myself I might just add one on for now but upgrade later.

My current one isn't a stove at all, it's just a fireplace with bifold glass doors on the front. No secondary combustion etc, just heat straight up the chimney.


The highest estimate I got was for a fancy stove with all the bells and whistles, installed, plus taxes etc. Seemed like a lot at the time.

As for wood supply/storage, I'm on 5 wooded acres but buy most of my wood. I don't have storage for anywhere near as much as I'd like, but I'll be rectifying that this summer.

 

[edthedawg]

Sounds great - lots of experienced insert owners/operators here, so i'll stand back to let them comment. I'm a Hearthstone user now, so I'd look at the Clydesdale, but there seems to be umpteen other highly respected types out there... My parents love their Heatilator. My cousin is in upstate NY (Slingerlands / Voorheesville area) and just replaced the smoke dragon in his house w/ a nice new insert, i'll have to ask him what he got.

 

[edwardkelly]

I'm not far from voorheesville, so while you're asking him mind asking him where he got it as well? I don't really know any of the local suppliers (new to the region).

thanks

 

[struggle]

That unit looks no air tight. So while adding a blower will help in reality it will only put out a little more heat with the blower.

Some friends of ours installed a unit like that in thier new home and while they came up to visit us with our woodstove the husband said he wished they had installed an air tight unit so they could get more heat.

Replace it. Do not waste you time on it if it in not air tight.

The times we have been at this families house the fireplace has to go a long time to produce any heat and then it is only marginal.

 

[edwardkelly]

Yeah it's definitely not air tight. They're just bifold glass doors on the front. Really all it is is a glorified fire place.

 

[struggle]

That is what it looked like in the photo. There really is nothing you can do to make it heat much better if you are up to replacing it then go for it. THe heat difference you will see and feel will be night and day.
Just make sure your install is up to handling the heat that will be put in there for safety and for code compliance..

 

[edthedawg]

EK - talked to my cousin in Slingerlands. He's got a "Country Stove" but isn't real sure on the brand. He's not thrilled with the heat or the blower noise, but he also doesn't appear to have a liner or blockoff plate - both of which we all know are critical!

He recommends Matchless Stove and Chimney in your area.

As for your future purchase - make sure you get something new, EPA-rated, and with secondary burn or a cat. good luck!

 

[edwardkelly]

Great, thanks for that. I'll check them out.

 

[pumiglk]

Ed,
Im in saratoga. Similar situation. 2800 sq ft. 9 year old house. Pretty good insulation, RIDICULOUS propane bills. Made the switch last spring. I put in a equinox into our our oversize fireplace and extended hearth. Did the masonry work myself but left the chimney to the stove shop (30ft Plus). Whole set-up with install and chimney was less than 5K (and the equinox is definately a cadillac of stoves in terms of price, but it is a room centerpiece and we have to live with this thing for a while). The propane has not been used for heat until this AM (-18 got a little ahead of the stove for a hour or so on the O/N burn). That said it is up and winning the battle again. The short of it is - with the weather and propane prices up here, one year paybacks are quite possible if you cut your own wood; two to three if you buy.

Lot of options in the area, this is THE BEST site for research stove characteristics (steel, cast, soapstone), size, and brands. Try to figure out what you want. Almost all brands you will have multiple options. In addition to Matchless, there is Best fire in Albany, Country side in Burnt hills, Pine Lake Stoves in Saratoga , and Saratoga Fireplace. Almost all possible brands are covered. You will have a lot of fun deciding and even more fun watching the propane bills shrink or disappear.

 

[edwardkelly]

Thanks Buono... I think I'm going to get the ball rolling this weekend. I mentioned in another thread, I got my gas bill yesterday - $900 for a months worth of propane. That's with the thermostat around 54 most of the time, 64 for a few hours a day. Brutal.

One thing I'm not sure about though... The existing fireplace doesn't have a full brick chimney. Does that matter? I assume there's combustible materials behind the fireplace, in the chimney column. Is that the whole point of a zero clearance stove? Given the type of fireplace/chminey (see above), is it likely I'll need a whole new flue installed? You may not know, just figured I'd ask.

I'll check out the stores you mentioned, hopefully this weekend.

 

[edthedawg]

Saratoga is a great place - wifey (aka: Woodstove Goddess) is from Ballston Spa... Her parents just moved to Orlando, FL full time a few years ago - I'm beginning to see the wisdom of that plan...

As for payback, yesterday I computed we've shaved our overall oil usage by about 71%, just by adding the stove. Awhile back, I had calculated our heat usage and associated costs for full-time house heating year round - which we did last year. We're all out of the house during the day now, so it's a little skewed, plus oil costs are way down...

But taking last year's numbers, we spent about $5000 just to heat the house w/ oil.

This year, we bought the stove (I honestly cannot recall the total cost but it was about $3500 installed) plus built the hearth, bought 4 cords of wood, and have since picked up about 26 boxes of Eco-Firelogs ($1000 in those 3 things). Add in my time, a couple axes, etc... and we're right at $5000 grand total. Tack on oil for this year (if I'm accurate, about 0.29 x $5000 = ~$1500 additional) and we're at $6500 this year. In subsequent years, presuming we don't buy a new stove or hearth, and use about the same amount of wood and oil, our total costs will be in the neighborhood of $2300/yr... So over 2 yrs, that's $6500+$2300= ~$9k vs. $10k the old way. Over 3 yrs, it's $6500+$2300+$2300= ~$11k vs. $15k the old way...

Hmm... need to build a woodshed in there somewhere...

Regardless, we're good My brain hurts now.

 

[edwardkelly]

Just called Best fire in Albany...

The only suitable one they had (he tells me) is a heat n glow north star. He's rough estimate was $7-$10k installed

He said they'd potentially have to enlarge the chase, redo the external air inlet, blah blah blah. $7k - $10k seems wicked high.

He said the stove itself was about $4k.

Going to call the others now to get some other ideas...


Edit:

Just tried Matchless. They have a kozy heat Z42CD. He didn't have specifics, but he guesstimated about $6k installed. $1500'ish for the installation, $1500'ish for a new chimney, plus whatever I pay for a unit.

 

[edthedawg]

What you have there... are people w/ a lot of backlog, or a lot of expenses to cover... Try calling some sweeps or masons - gonna have to go with your gut on meeting & talking to them. Do your research here and online and locally - find an insert you really consider the best combination of size, price, and performance. Then work out the delivery and installation costs. If it just works out to no option under your original $4-6k estimate, then I reckon that's where you're gonna be...

Installation labor + liner kit + a good stove... i could see up to $5k from scratch, i guess. just feels like a big pill to swallow all at once, esp now that the Big Box stores are liquidating stove inventories, woodstock and hearthstones are on 10% sales...

 

[edwardkelly]

Just tried country side in Burnt hills. They guesstimated about $7,500 for a fireplace extraordinaire installed. One of these guys: http://www.countrysidestove.com/index.php?s=product&id=68

So it looks like somewhere around $6k - $8k is as good as I can get.

The problem I think is that the existing unit has to be pulled, then replaced with a new unit. Then a new chimney etc installed. The current fireplace is too small to just plug an insert straight into it (apparently) otherwise it would only cost about $3200.

I'm going to go into these stores on the weekend and get some proper quotes.

 

[begreen]

That's correct Ed, the new fireplace would need a new flue system. One alternative to consider is installing a freestanding stove in either the same location or another place in the house. Depending on the choice, it could save some dollars and end up being a much better heating system. I would guestimate about $1500-3000 for the stove (there are many choices) and about $1500-2000 for the flue. It will also need a hearth, but that costs varies a lot with the stove.

Are you at all a DIY person or will you need this entirely done by a pro (including the removal)?

 

[edwardkelly]

That's correct Ed, the new fireplace would need a new flue system. One alternative to consider is installing a freestanding stove in either the same location or another place in the house. Depending on the choice, it could save some dollars and end up being a much better heating system. I would guestimate about $1500-3000 for the stove (there are many choices) and about $1500-2000 for the flue. It will also need a hearth, but that costs varies a lot with the stove.

Are you at all a DIY person or will you need this entirely done by a pro (including the removal)?

I'm a bit of a DIY'er, I'm lucky to have my father in law nearby who's a super DIY'er (he built their house). So I'm sure we can reduce the cost at least a bit.

I'd go for the free standing unit, but I'm pretty sure the wife wants to keep the 'fireplace'. Not sure I'll be able to convince her otherwise.

 

[edwardkelly]

Wen to another local place yesterday (cobleskill NY) and they were awesome. The guy there came to my place yesterday afternoon and measure it all up. He says that a Lopi Revere insert will go in the existing ZC fireplace no problem. Total quote for the revere installed, with a blower was about $3300. Not sure how that stacks up costwise compared to a revere installed from somewhere else, but compared to the other quotes I'd been getting for a solution $7k+ it's delightful. I realize comparing an insert to a complete fireplace replacement is comparing apples to oranges, but I'm only interested in the end result - being able to contribute to heating my house using wood.

 

[begreen]

Great Ed, Lopi makes good stoves. Did the price include a full stainless liner, top plate and cap for the flue?

 

[edwardkelly]

Hi Begreen,

The quote includes:

Revere insert + panels
20' Stainless steel chimney liner
Custom riser
Blower

Whats the top plate? I asked him about what is done to block the top of the stove off from the old opening and he said they put a plate/panel in there, is that what you mean? What's it normally made from, I can check it out.

Edit - I forgot to ask about the top cap for the flue. Does it need a replacement one once the liner goes in?

 

[madison]

ed, see the PM I sent you prior to pulling the trigger on the purchase..

 

[edwardkelly]

Got a different stove insert quote... It was $5041. I asked the guy why his might be so much higher than the other one and he said "I would say that the prices you have been quoted are rock bottom. I would like to earn your business but, with the quality of the product, materials and labor that we offer, that price is beyond our reach."

Now I want to be sure the original quote I got isn't skipping out on anything... He's listed $420 for 20' for of stainless steel chimney liner, which the other guy says is an 'inexpensive liner which he can't match'. I'm not sure whether that means he only sells expensive liners, or the liner I've been quoted is sub par and not up to the job...

The rest of the quote lists out the items above. Need to clarify the top plate and flue cap, but is there otherwise anything else missin?

 

[edwardkelly]

Well it's done...

Here's the almost end result:

(broken image removed)

I say almost because if you look on the left side of the stove you'll see a gap. Apparently they measured the size of the backing incorrectly so it's a bit short. They're going to come back to install an appropriately sized backing next week. Stove is good to go in the meantime though....

Thanks for all the advice!

 

[edwardkelly]

Oh, here's the before:


(broken image removed)