Upsizing and how it worked out

[Setter Fan]

Other than continuing to hijack other threads thought it would be best to post separately.


Have a Jotul Rockland 550 insert approximate 2.2 cubic foot firebox (24” w x 11.5” D x 14” H) in a center chimney with block off plate. It is rated at around 1,800 square feet which it does quite admirably. However I am in an approximate 2,500 square foot house and when the temperature drops below 30 the stove really struggles to keep up. Normally I kick the furnace on in the morning and again once or twice further throughout the day to keep the stove room temperature in the high 60’s very low 70’s. The rest of the house varies between 5-10 degrees cooler.

My question is for those that have gone from an insert with a small to mid-size firebox to a full 3 cubic foot (or over) firebox/free standing woodstove, have you seen appreciable gains in heat?

I know each house/setup is different based on square footage, insulation, number of windows and obviously wood quality. But would like to hear about others experiences, the stoves they went to and in the end was it worth the change (and not stickily from a financial perspective)?

 

[DougA]

I went from a 2.4 freestanding to a 4.0 freestanding and I used to experience the same problems you are facing. Great except in cold weather. Actually great for us used to be high 60's in the house. Now, we are very happy with mid 70's and the stove is cruising and not pushed to the limits like my old one was. Sorry I can't provide any insight on inserts, but the output is supposed to be similar.

 

[EJL923]

sub'd. My 550 is also used in a similar size house. However, when its real cold im not that worried about the short duration of oil furnace supplement

 

[begreen]

A freestanding stove has the advantage of more surface area exposed to the room. Clark77 just upgraded from a decent Regency insert to the 3 cu ft Jotul F55. He is noting a significant improvement. How well it will work in your house depends on the floorplan, stove location, insulation, etc. that are peculiar to the home.

 

[jatoxico]

I have a 550 and use it similarly to you in that I don't try to heat 100% with wood. Still I'm able to keep a large house warm well under 30 deg. In fact since I added a block off plate I can raise and maintain the temp into the teens. Not really one to say "my stove is the best" but 30 deg is pretty mild. Maybe there's another gear you haven't hit.

What kind of temperatures are you reaching with the stove? The 550 can handle being pretty hot. Or is it more of a heat distribution issue?

 

[Setter Fan]

thanks everyone for the feedback.

I have read the 550 tips thread.. embarrassed to say more than a few times. She seems to like to run between 500-650 degrees, yes I have gotten it up in the 700's. Its not really a insert issue since the 550 heats as advertised, but rather is a bigger firebox simply better.

The only issues I have with the stove is the fan constantly must run and it forces you to load E/W with 24" width. Cut my pieces to 20" which is the opening of the door and about what my wife can handle without getting clumsy.

Just wondering if going with a firebox that is essentially 30% bigger than the 550 really translates to 30% more heat. Also I would imagine a more square firebox would be easier to load, allow for N/S loading and could be utilized more effectively. Example my firebox can handle a 24" piece but realistically trying to get a bunch of 2 footers in their just does not work well with the door only being 20".

 

[begreen]

Going to a 3 cu ft firebox and putting more of the stove into the room envelope will make a notable difference. This is the way the Summit insert and others are designed. A freestander is even better for this reason. A big square firebox gives one lots of wiggle room for different configurations and oddball pieces of wood. It also affords more options for control of the burn.

 

[jatoxico]

thanks everyone for the feedback.

I have read the 550 tips thread.. embarrassed to say more than a few times. She seems to like to run between 500-650 degrees, yes I have gotten it up in the 700's. Its not really a insert issue since the 550 heats as advertised, but rather is a bigger firebox simply better.

Just wondering if going with a firebox that is essentially 30% bigger than the 550 really translates to 30% more heat. Also I would imagine a more square firebox would be easier to load, allow for N/S loading and could be utilized more effectively. Example my firebox can handle a 24" piece but realistically trying to get a bunch of 2 footers in their just does not work well with the door only being 20".

If you're hitting 700 on the top then you're getting what she's got. I agree about the loading, N/S is not easy and stuffing the firebox using E/W is tough since logs want to roll to the glass. It's one reason why I would never recommend a flush insert unless needed. that and if the unit extends onto the hearth I think you get better heating even w/o the fan.

 

[Grisu]

Just wondering if going with a firebox that is essentially 30% bigger than the 550 really translates to 30% more heat.

Not really. Rough estimate may be ~15% more heat and ~15% longer burn time. If the insert is at an exterior wall you can try minimizing heat loss to the outside by insulating behind it. https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/finally-got-around-to-insulating-my-fireplace.75755/ At an interior wall it won't make a difference; neither will you gain much by simply going to a similar sized freestanding stove then.

It sounds like you need quite a few more BTUs than the C550 can put out. Maybe the Kuma Sequoia for an insert or the Hearthstone Equinox for a freestanding stove in front of the fireplace? Both would require switching to an 8" liner. If you want to keep the 6" liner, the Woodstock Ideal Steel has a large firebox and can be rear-vented.

Have you looked into adding insulation and further air-sealing? Those investments will pay you back for years to come.

 

[begreen]

I have to disagree. We've seen several examples of folks going from a flush ~2 cu ft stove to a 3 cu ft freestander and noting a large improvement. Here's a recent example. 2500 sq ft house, interior chimney.
before:
https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/time-for-a-change-to-something-bigger.139843/
after:
https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/f55-owners-step-inside.138456/page-3#post-1908148

 

[EJL923]

Going with a flush insert was more of a looks thing when we chose it, not knowing a lot about inserts. I figured we would get more radiant heat, but thats not the case being flush. Overall, im happy and prob wont upgrade. I save money using the stove. If i had to do it again, it will most likely be freestanding.

 

[mass_burner]

You can't overlook the heat distribution factor. I didn't see the OP's house style. I have a flush 1.6 and I get plenty of heat in half the house, in the recent 0d days it kept try he space 70 easily. Hate to see you go through the trouble and still have an issue.

 

[Huntindog1]

A biggy for a 3.0 cu ft box is its usually square or at least deep enough to load North / South. I found it much easier
to load wood and can load more wood North/South than I would be able to Load East/West.
North / South seems to work better with Large Splits that will get you longer Burn times.

With a East / West loading your always making sure not to load too close to the front so as wood falling on the glass of the door.

 

[velvetfoot]

I went from a 1.7 ft3 Quadrafire 2700i insert to a 2.3 ft3 Hampton (Regency) insert, the largest that would fit, and it made a big difference. I think a good part of that was being able to load N/S. Now, if I had my druthers, I'd have a larger free standing stove, but I don't have my druthers.

 

[Setter Fan]

I initially wanted a freestanding wood stove and priced out rebuilding/extending the hearth to accommodate the unit Found a few rear vent units that would fit my setup - my constraint was a rear exit flue height of 30".... Liked the Jotul Oslo and the Woodstock line up (short leg kit), then my wife came to the Jotul showroom and fell in love with the flush Rockland - Blue/Black enamel. Bottom line, it was a compromise.

Background - 2,500 square foot cape with recent blown in cellulose insulation and 80% of the windows are 2-3 years old. Fairly open plan with master bedroom on first floor, kids bedrooms are on second floor but currently in college. The chimney is in the center of house (inside wall - only top 4 feet of chimney is exposed to elements) right next to stair case. Heat distribution works out very well but just lacking the extra BTU's when the temps get to below 30.

Example - Last night was running the stove all out getting stove top temps nearing 700, stove room 72, kitchen and dinning room 71 (which are open to stove room). Bedroom was probably mid 60's. I push the heat around with the inserts fan and another small fan in the hallway pointing toward stove.

 

[BradleyW]

I went from a freestanding Quad 3100 (about 2 cubic feet) to a freestanding Jotul F55 (3 cubic feet). The F55 definitely heats the house a little more, but the bigger change is that I don't have to load the stove as often or get up in the middle of the night. For me the longer burn time was necessary if I expected to burn wood every winter. Getting up every night in the winter would start to get old pretty quickly.

 

[mass_burner]

So when it's below 30, you only shy of your heat target in the furthest rooms by a few degrees? Is that really worth it?

 

[Grisu]

I initially wanted a freestanding wood stove and priced out rebuilding/extending the hearth to accommodate the unit Found a few rear vent units that would fit my setup - my constraint was a rear exit flue height of 30".... Liked the Jotul Oslo and the Woodstock line up (short leg kit), then my wife came to the Jotul showroom and fell in love with the flush Rockland - Blue/Black enamel. Bottom line, it was a compromise.

Background - 2,500 square foot cape with recent blown in cellulose insulation and 80% of the windows are 2-3 years old. Fairly open plan with master bedroom on first floor, kids bedrooms are on second floor but currently in college. The chimney is in the center of house (inside wall - only top 4 feet of chimney is exposed to elements) right next to stair case. Heat distribution works out very well but just lacking the extra BTU's when the temps get to below 30.

Example - Last night was running the stove all out getting stove top temps nearing 700, stove room 72, kitchen and dinning room 71 (which are open to stove room). Bedroom was probably mid 60's. I push the heat around with the inserts fan and another small fan in the hallway pointing toward stove.

Since it is an interior chimney the only heat you are losing is what goes up your flue. If you have a proper block-off plate with some insulation above it, it will hardly make a difference if you have a freestanding stove or an insert assuming both have the same efficiency. The stove will give you more radiant heat early in the burn, while the insert will warm up the walls of the fireplace which will radiate the heat over a longer period of time later in the burn and beyond.

What you need is a bigger unit, preferably with a firebox that you can stuff full. For a large flush insert look at the Large Flush Hybrid insert from Travis Industries (Lopi/Avalon/FireplaceXtraordinaire). It has a 3 cu ft firebox but since it is a E-W loader you may not be able to use everything. Other large inserts for a 6" liner are:
Pacific Energy Summit, Lopi Freedom, Quadrafire 5100i, Regency i3100, Osburn 2400, BlazeKing Princess

For a large medium-sized insert I would look at the Enviro 1700 series or the PE Neo 2.5. Not sure if the switch would really be worth it, though.

If you are willing to change to an 8" liner, the Kuma Sequoia and the Buck 91 would be options.

For a rear-vented stove that you and your wife may like: I think the Quadrafire Isle Royale and the Hearthstone Manchester should both fit with a 30" lintel height.

 

[Setter Fan]

Thanks Grisu, really appreciate the feedback and stove options you gave had a few I did not even consider. If I upgraded stoves, would not switch to another insert based on fan noise alone. Also would want a stove that allows for N/S loading. Plus to me there is an appeal of a freestanding woodstove that my wife is now coming around to.

Since my fireplace opening height (Lintel) is exactly 30" would I be able to use the Jotul F55, Quadrafire Isle Royale or Hearthstone Manchester which are all exactly 30" based on manual? Would it be tight but fit? Not sure if the pipping that goes into that rear exit would be slightly larger?

Secondly really like that the that the F55 which offers ember protection only, this would allow for a slate hearth (which we currently have but would need to be replaced/extended)

Otherwise The Woodstock PH or IS offers shorter leg kits. Jotul Oslo offers same short leg feature but only 2.5 cubic foot firebox (which would not be worth trouble to me

I am shy of my heating target in cold weather when the stove is absolutely "rocking and rolling" which I cant keep it at all the time. That's really my issue in a nutshell.