VC Defiant 1610 Learning Curve

[msbree]

It's a brand new Defiant model #1610....only front or top loading, not side loading...!

Congrats on your new addition Ozark! I got the same one last year...installed on Halloween! I know it's still early, but do keep us updated on how the stove performs, as well as any issues you might have! Glad you guys figured out what piece was missing! My Gosh...I don't want to think what could have happened had you not discovered this as quickly as you did

There’s so much negative talk about the EverBurn, that I’d really like hear some positive stuff!

I did make it through last winter just fine AFTER I learned that short pieces were best for this stove (go figure...stove supposed to handle 24” pieces...I must have done something wrong)! I had to have one of my sons run every piece of 2-1/2 cords through the table saw so that each piece of wood was about 12”...CRAZY Once I had a nice hot coal bed, and I’d add a couple bigger pieces, the coals would burn out within 1/2 hour leaving me to pretty much throw in a bunch of smaller pieces to rekindle! Stove top was about 550! It was a definite learning curve and I honestly believe I can do better this winter, especially after soaking in the abudance of information on this forum like a sponge. I always had to refuel every 1-1/2 hours...never had any hot coals in the morning either! This may sound nutts, but I judged the quality of the fire by how clean the glass stayed! Once I turned the stove down to low air, it was just a matter of minutes before the glass would start cloudying up!

I’m open to any and all suggestions!

 

[msbree]

With regards to moving this thread, don't quote me, but BeGreen had replied to my above post with the following, to the best of my knowledge:

Describe the install. How seasoned is your wood? Are you dampering down too soon, or at all?

From the stove, there's a 3 foot 8" stove pipe connected to 25 foot 8" stainless steel liner (insulated) straight up masonry chimney! Chimney liner was new install at the same time as stove! My home is over 3,000 square feet, and once I get the stove going, I can easily heat the entire house all day and evening, including upstairs, and not have boiler kick in till middle of the night! I use stove daily all winter season long...I'm grateful I work from home or I probably wouldn't use the stove much at all.

I've been getting my firewood from the same guy for the last 5 years...it's been split about a year or longer before I get it, usually in July/August. My firewood is a hardwood mixture and very seasoned.

From a cold start, it normally takes me about an hour to first close the damper (air flow at high) with a good 2-3" hot coal bed, then I'm good for about an 1-1/2 hours with air flow set to medium (between 550-600 stove top temperature). The only time damper is open is to refuel. Once new load added (about two 3"-5" pieces), I wait till the wood catches good (about 5 minutes), close damper and then slowly cut back airflow! Each time damper is closed, I hear the EverBurn 'rumble'. Stack: always clear/clean, never smoke, rarely white vapors!

Call me chicken, but the second time I used the stove (after initial break-in period), a flat piece of wood 'fell' off the pile and right onto the EverBurn opening, covering the air holes. I could hear a loud rumble coming from the top of the chimney downwards (thought it was a wind gust at first at top), and the stove backfired within the firebox (I saw the flames roll like ocean waves)! I freaked I immediately opened the damper and air flow all the way, opened the griddle (stove top) and moved that flat piece of wood away from the EverBurn opening! It took a good 45 minutes for the temp in the stove to start coming down from 850 back to 500. Needless to say, that whole experience was quite unnerving for me, and it's directly because of this experience that I keep all firewood in the stove stacked away from that opening...thus the short pieces of firewood! When I've put in a longer, fat piece, the coal bed would just burn off, and instant creosote on the glass! My mood went down pretty quickly too!

I found this forum right after the stove was installed last year, and I learned so much! I honestly thought that the every 1-1/2 hours of 'babysitting' and refueling my 'short' wood was my 'norm' for this stove, but I now believe I'm wrong after reading everyone else's experiences and watching some of the great video's. What would I give if I could have 5 to 6 hours before having to refuel AND keeping my glass clean...and being able to wake up in the mornings to see some hot coals ready for refueling?

One more thing, this stove has 3.4 cubic foot firebox. It's 'advertised' to hold maximum 24" logs with 14 hours burn time! Because my existing firebox opening is so large and my house so big, this is why I went with this particular model. Here's the link to their product spec page:

(broken link removed to http://www.vermontcastings.com/content/products/productdetails.cfm?id=168)
~Bree

 

[msbree]

There’s so much negative talk about the EverBurn, that I’d really like hear some positive stuff!

I did make it through last winter just fine AFTER I learned that short pieces were best for this stove (go figure...stove supposed to handle 24” pieces...I must have done something wrong)! I had to have one of my sons run every piece of 2-1/2 cords through the table saw so that each piece of wood was about 12”...CRAZY Once I had a nice hot coal bed, and I’d add a couple bigger pieces, the coals would burn out within 1/2 hour leaving me to pretty much throw in a bunch of smaller pieces to rekindle! Stove top was about 550! It was a definite learning curve and I honestly believe I can do better this winter, especially after soaking in the abudance of information on this forum like a sponge. I always had to refuel every 1-1/2 hours...never had any hot coals in the morning either! This may sound nutts, but I judged the quality of the fire by how clean the glass stayed! Once I turned the stove down to low air, it was just a matter of minutes before the glass would start cloudying up!

I’m open to any and all suggestions!

 

[kjklosek]

Sounds like wet wood.

How seasoned is your wood?

J.P.

 

[msbree]

Hey JP...wood is seasoned and dry! See #1 and #2 above, which goes into detail about my issue! These posts were moved after your reply!

Stupid question, but doesn't wet wood have long burn time? I would never burn wet wood cause I'm smoke/creosote paranoid!

 

[wgebert]

I have a VC Defiant Encore NC 1450. Have used it for 2 winters now and has proven to be a great stove. Easy to operate and very clean.I know many people have had bad luck with this stove (as noted on this forum) but I have had just the opposite experience, real a pleasure to use. I do see that the stove is very sensitive to draft conditions and I feel many problems with the stove stem from a chimney arrangement not suited for the stove. I guess I am lucky with my setup. Whenever my glass gets sooty, it is due to the wood being wet. When I burn dry wood, no soot. I am very suprised so many owners have had problems with this stove.

 

[begreen]

Well the move didn't work, my mess up. Here's a new thread for MsBree's Defiant questions.

 

[kjklosek]

Hey JP...wood is seasoned and dry! Stay tuned...there are two posts already written that I'm waiting to be moved here from another thread. I've included lots of details of my problem.

Stupid question, but doesn't wet wood take forever to burn? I would never burn wet wood cause I'm smoke/creosote paranoid!

Go to your supermarket,gas station or big box store and buy a couple of bundles, maybe four or five with that massive firebox, and use that wood for a fire or two.

Then compare the results to your wood.

The supermarket wood is usually kiln dried so you know it has less than 20% moisture content.

Use this wood after you have a good coal bed.

J.P.

 

[begreen]

I'd have the refractory assembly closely examined by a pro that knows these stoves. The refractory ceramic is fragile. If it's been damaged the stove may not be burning correctly.

 

[msbree]

I have a VC Defiant Encore NC 1450. Have used it for 2 winters now and has proven to be a great stove. Easy to operate and very clean.I know many people have had bad luck with this stove (as noted on this forum) but I have had just the opposite experience, real a pleasure to use. I do see that the stove is very sensitive to draft conditions and I feel many problems with the stove stem from a chimney arrangement not suited for the stove. I guess I am lucky with my setup. Whenever my glass gets sooty, it is due to the wood being wet. When I burn dry wood, no soot. I am very suprised so many owners have had problems with this stove.

Hey Tug...it's nice to hear your story. Your stove and mine are identical except the size. If you can take a minute and read #2 above (I believe this post was moved here after your reply) and see if any of this sounds familiar to you! I honestly believe it's me, and that I'm doing something wrong. One thing I realized I was doing wrong was not placing some smaller pieces under the bigger pieces when refueling (according to the owner's manual). I also ONLY put one layer of wood in each time I refuel (wrong too, right?) I think every stove has it's own 'personality', but would you mind sharing exactly how you start up as well as how you refuel? Do you have a special way of positioning the wood so it stays clear of the EverBurn opening? How long is your burn time, and have you ever loaded the stove for all night burning? If so, do you have enough of a hot bed in the mornings to start right up? Thanks

 

[begreen]

For some good tips on using an everburn, you might want to read tradergordo's post on his Dutchwest:

https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/4188/

And maybe look at his operational videos here:
https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/14536/

 

[wgebert]

MsBree, My VC Defiant Encore is very simple to operate. For a cold start I will "twist up" several pages of newspaper, lay a handful of dry kindling on the paper followed with a good amount of larger pieces, 1-2" limbs, old pieces 2 x4", anything dry. I open the front doors and light with a match, keeping the doors cracked until the kindling starts to take off then close the doors. From the start, the main damper on he left side of the stove is opened and the air supply on right side of stove is open full. After 15 -20 minutes if fire is going well, I will add several good size pieces of wood 4-5" dia., let these get burning, all the while keepiung an eye on the stove top thermometer, when it reaches 500 I close the by-pass and set the right side air supply lever to half open. I will hear the rumble in the stove for a few minutes then it fades away, stove continues to burn like a champ. I will add more wood approx every 3 hours or so. The stove maintains a 550 to 600 temp. At night before going to bed, I fill the stove up completely, to the top, with wood. I am not fussy aboiut raking coals to front or back, I just put in the wood, let it catch with the by -pass open (approx 10-15 min) then close the by - pass, and close the air supply lever all the way down. 8 hours later I will open by-pass, open the top and see some, bottom grating not covered, but a fair amount of glowing coals. Enough to put down some newspaper, add the kindling then start all over again. I find the stove very forgiving regarding how you load the firebox. As I said, I don't do anything special, I just put the wood in, most of the time if not always, covering the lower refractory chamber inlet, holes etc. Most critical factoe for this stove is wood must be dry for good, easy operation. Hope this helps.

 

[msbree]

Go to your supermarket,gas station or big box store and buy a couple of bundles, maybe four or five with that massive firebox, and use that wood for a fire or two. J.P.

hahaha...great minds think alike! I made a special trip to Sam's Club yesterday, but NADA! Will try my local supermarket or probably Lowe's/Home Depot! Great suggestion too! Thanks!

 

[msbree]

I'd have the refractory assembly closely examined by a pro that knows these stoves. The refractory ceramic is fragile. If it's been damaged the stove may not be burning correctly.

I'll definitely remember this BG...thanks! When all else fails (meaning ME and/or the wood), I'll most certainly have this checked out!

 

[msbree]

For some good tips on using an everburn, you might want to read tradergordo's post on his Dutchwest:

https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/4188/

And maybe look at his operational videos here:
https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/14536/

These videos are EXCELLENT and priceless! I've watched them several times over the last few weeks already...wish I could get a clear view of his firebox to see where the air holes are and how he loads around them. I'll shoot him off a PM in a bit, and see if he can stop by here and offer any suggestions!

 

[msbree]

I find the stove very forgiving regarding how you load the firebox. As I said, I don't do anything special, I just put the wood in, most of the time if not always, covering the lower refractory chamber inlet, holes etc. Most critical factor for this stove is wood must be dry for good, easy operation. Hope this helps.

Thanks Tug, for going into such detail. I have the same identical routine as you, including stove top temp. What really has me stumped is what happened when that flat piece fell right on top of the chamber inlet holes. This freaked me out so bad (took me almost 1/2 hour to stop shaking), and that's why I used short pieces the rest of the winter, staying as far away from those holes as possible (obviously the shorter pieces offered shorter burn time). There's absolutely nothing in the manual cautioning to not block these air holes, yet you cover them and you're just fine. I honestly thought this was poor design (what do I know?)!

I really need to get out of my comfort zone a little, but I'd really like an explanation from someone knowledgeable who can explain why I experienced that 'back fire' (if that's what it was) inside the firebox when those air holes got covered. No wind that day either...I remember immediately looking out the window to see if we had a wind gust as I heard the rumble coming down the flue and roll around inside the firebox! I still get chills thinking about that day!

 

[Diabel]

Once I was reloading, had a nice bed of coals not enough to put a split on them. I threw few 2x4 & two splits on top. As the fire started & got going well & closed the damper (as always). Few minutes later the wood shifted & one of the 2x4 blocked the shoe completely :bug: The flames died instantly....I knew something was up I opened the damper re shifted the wood & it burned fine after that. It concerned me but I blamed myself for burning 2x4. Since then I have had splits cover the shoe... & it is all good.

 

[tradergordo]

MsBree - I got your PM. You aren't going to like my answer. Your problem is that you live in New Jersey, and its October!


Ask any experienced person with an everburn stove, and they will tell you the same thing.
In the meantime, from what I understand, this is your second season. Have you done the annual cleaning? This is not optional, it is required for optimal performance. Ash and "hard chips" accumulate in the everburn chambers and above the shoe. These need to be cleared away.
I think my videos which you've already seen, explain my routine about as best I can, but in general you want a good coal bed in front of the shoe (rear bottom center of firebox) and you can load wood on top of that to feed the coal bed as it burns down. Throwing one log in at a time doesn't always work so well. Bigger splits will obviously burn a lot longer, but you can use smaller stuff to quickly establish an initial coal bed and get the thermal mass up before putting on the big stuff.

In certain conditions, for example when outside temp is >40F and/or its cloudy (low atmospheric pressure) you may not be able to successfully damper down at all (because these are poor draft conditions).

Occasionally these stoves draft excessively, it sounds like you may have experienced that although I don't know how you measure your temps - 850 could be normal depending on how its measured (please describe). If you are getting excessive draft very frequently, you should have your stove checked by a professional. But as an emergency precaution, you can cover over the rear air intake with a piece of tin foil - this will stop the draft very quickly and bring the temps down.

 

[Diabel]

Occasionally these stoves draft excessively, it sounds like you may have experienced that although I don't know how you measure your temps - 850 could be normal depending on how its measured (please describe).

850* :bug: Time to get a second thermometer! Any one wants to do the 2x4 test?

 

[msbree]

Few minutes later the wood shifted & one of the 2x4 blocked the shoe completely :bug: The flames died instantly....I knew something was up I opened the damper re shifted the wood & it burned fine after that. It concerned me but I blamed myself for burning 2x4. Since then I have had splits cover the shoe... & it is all good.

OK...I'm learning that this opening with the air holes is also referred to as a shoe! What do you supposed was the difference between the 2x4 covering the shoe and flames instantly dying out versus a split covering the shoe and being ok?

 

[msbree]

MsBree - I got your PM. You aren't going to like my answer. Your problem is that you live in New Jersey, and its October! Occasionally these stoves draft excessively, it sounds like you may have experienced that although I don't know how you measure your temps - 850 could be normal depending on how its measured (please describe). If you are getting excessive draft very frequently, you should have your stove checked by a professional. But as an emergency precaution, you can cover over the rear air intake with a piece of tin foil - this will stop the draft very quickly and bring the temps down.

Well tradergordo, so nice to see you! I appreciate your stopping by with some much needed humor! Yes, this is my second season, but I have NOT used the stove yet (not cold enough yet during the daytime), although we've already had a few chilly nights (upper 30's), and quite chilly in the house upon waking up. I've been tempted, just to get the chill out, but not yet! YUP on the fall cleaning...had that done thoroughly early September by the same professional who did the stove install.

I use two stove thermometers...one is placed right on the top of the griddle (stove top) and the second is placed on the stove pipe, about 13" above stove (any higher, and I wouldn't be able to read it). The 850 degrees was stove top temp, and ONLY once, the 2nd time I used the stove after initial burn-in period in November 2007, when that flat piece of wood fell on the shoe and covered the entire opening. After that experience, I had an awesome burning season through April of this year. Only problem was that I started using shorter pieces, so I could place the wood 'strategically' away from the shoe...worked out great except I had to refuel every 1-1/2 hours! I've always been able to maintain 550-600 stove top temperature with excellent heat output.

So, what are some of the causes of excessive draft? My house is pretty well sealed up (new windows, new doors, etc...), and the installer ensures me the install is tight too! Could be the stove itself, which has been mentioned a few times already.

So what I've been reading so far, there's nothing special about how the wood is placed in the firebox, as long as there's a 2" to 3" coal bed (maybe more by the shoe)! In watching the first part of your first video again, can you tell me the depth of your stove? Maybe I need to watch the beginning of your video a few more times, but where exactly is your shoe? Are you loading from the front or the side? Mine, from the andirons to the ceramic plate above the shoe is only 11 inches. The width is 26 inches. This is why any 'normal' size wood cannot be placed front to back, but sideways...thus covering the shoe!

 

[tradergordo]

Yea in the video I am using the side load. The shoe is in the bottom back of the firebox (the thing with the holes in it). 850 stove top temp is very high. You can test gaskets for leaks by closing the doors on a piece of paper (or a dollar bill) all around the entire gasket, if the paper pulls out EASILY then you need to replace the gasket and/or adjust the door.

 

[msbree]

Yea in the video I am using the side load. The shoe is in the bottom back of the firebox (the thing with the holes in it). 850 stove top temp is very high. You can test gaskets for leaks by closing the doors on a piece of paper (or a dollar bill) all around the entire gasket, if the paper pulls out EASILY then you need to replace the gasket and/or adjust the door.

Tight as a drum, all around! OK...question, what would happen, with damper closed, IF those holes in the shoe were to be completely blocked off? I'm just trying to learn HOW this stove works! Yeah, I like to get to the nitty gritty of HOW things work! :smirk:

 

[Diabel]

850* is too high, there is got to be a leak somewhere (ash pan around the hinge perhaps). Pick up a second thermometer maybe!

As for the plugged shoe...if you have a 2-3 inch coal bed then it is impossible to plug the shoe entrance. I my case (2x4 situation) there were very little coals in the box none around the shoe.

 

[msbree]

850* is too high, there is got to be a leak somewhere (ash pan around the hinge perhaps). Pick up a second thermometer maybe!

As for the plugged shoe...if you have a 2-3 inch coal bed then it is impossible to plug the shoe entrance. I my case (2x4 situation) there were very little coals in the box none around the shoe.

Hey Diabel...thanks for replying! I'm getting the feeling that everyone is thinking I'm burning at 850 degrees all the time! NOT hahaha That was a one-time shot (or 'boo boo') very early in the season last year when that flat piece of wood fell on the air holes and covered the entire shoe! I normally burn 550-600 comfortably. I am learning how important it is to maintain the 2-3 inch coal bed...mine always seemed to burn down too quickly! I know this is an art, and I'm learning!