VC Encore: I am pulling my hair out!!!

[AlanS]

This stove, which I have had for about 10 years runs HOT: 800 deg.+. I have changed gaskets: griddle, ashpan, fireback. Checked the doors with a slip of paper- tight, no slippage.
Today I changed the Secondary Probe. Fired it up...HOT!
When I changed the Secondary Probe (in the rear of the stove), it seems to be a metal gizmo that opens/ closes a vent. In the cold position, it is open. Since the stove has a Zero clearance shield on it, I cannot check the Probe vent when hot.
I don't know what to do.
I just changed the Cat., so now I am just waiting for that to warp and ruin.

 

[elmoleaf]

Has it always run hot?
--Perhaps excessive draft from your flue.

Is the change recent?
--Change in type of wood you're burning...Dry old wood, softwoods, will burn quick & hot.
--Changes to flue setup...different chimney cap changing how well flue draws.
--Worn out gaskets....you changed all those that shouldn't be it.
--Change in how you use primary air control...pretty obvious one...if you give it more air, the stove burns hotter.
--Secondary air thermostat...you changed that too, so that shouldn't be it, unless the flapper is getting stuck. On a cold stove, make sure you can pull down gently on the flap and have it move without binding.
--Air leaks. Use a bright light to check inside firebox...look for areas of missing soot near vertical seams between castings. Those could be signs of air leaks where cement has failed between the castings. Look for anything odd or daylight that could be signs of a problem.

My guess is you're leaking air somewhere between the stove's cast iron plates.

 

[HeatsTwice]

This stove, which I have had for about 10 years runs HOT: 800 deg.+. I have changed gaskets: griddle, ashpan, fireback. Checked the doors with a slip of paper- tight, no slippage.
Today I changed the Secondary Probe. Fired it up...HOT!
When I changed the Secondary Probe (in the rear of the stove), it seems to be a metal gizmo that opens/ closes a vent. In the cold position, it is open. Since the stove has a Zero clearance shield on it, I cannot check the Probe vent when hot.
I don't know what to do.
I just changed the Cat., so now I am just waiting for that to warp and ruin.

Hi search this page for my comments on the DC encore. It is a poorly designed unit, prone to warp, required constant inard replacement, and never burned for more than 5 hours befor being "dead on coals".

The stove I replaced it with (Nepoleon 1900) is a far better stove (so far). A the very least, I know I have no cast iron parts to replace.

 

[Todd]

Pipe damper?

 

[AlanS]

I tried to inspect the stove for 'warpage'. I put a powerful light inside the unit and looked outside of it for light leaks. NONE! Could someone be more specific when you say that the panels warp. Seems like they are double walled, in that the inside is not the outside (make sense?). The corners are not a simple meeting of the side and back.
I am really stumped and running this thing at 700-800 is not making me feel good (and using up my wood!).

 

[HeatsTwice]

If you knock out the triangular wedges in the back bottom of the stove out, you will find that the back iron plate below the hood comes out. After this you will notice an fibre board structure which houses the rectangular cat. converter. I think when you take out the cat. converter, you will notice what I always found and that is that the honey combs of the filter have crumbled so the metal rectangular houseing will pretty much be void of cat. material. It could be that you run so hot because, with a hollow cat. converter, way more air is passing through that space. BTW, cat. converters always cost me $220.

Anyway, after you dissasemble the stove to this level, it will become clear that then the right and left sides of the inside firebox can be removed. When you remove these it becomes clear that the complete choke houseing can be removed by lostening the bolt on the exterior of the stove.

Now, when you put the thing back together, be sure that there is no ash left in any of the crevises or this jigsaw puzzle will not go together right. Also you will have to replace all of the fire rope gaskets. Get the right size or again, it will not go back together correctly. It could be that you are running so hot because your gaskets need replaceing. Lastly besure not to tangle the thermometer wire going from the righ hand lever to the back air intake (located behind the right side fire box panel) otherwise it will be stuck wide open and you will always be burning hot. It could be that this is your problem also. The back, adjustable air intake should be adjusted as per the factory data sheet/owners manuel.

That stove was a nightmare and I am glad to be rid of it.

 

[markleyh]

My wife and I rebuilt our Defiant Encore cat stove (vintage 1994) twice because of this same type of over-firing behavior. My wife sold VC stoves for years and had some training up in Randolph, obviously before all the merger woes and decline of product quality. The second time we decided to dissamble it completely and made the mistake of taking off the top. It is cemented on and requires a certified tech to reassemble once you reach that point, or you WILL have air leaks. This stove is built like a cast-iron Rubik's cube (my wife's description), and is dissambled from the inside out. Taking out the wedges, the fireback, the refractory and the inner sides is only the first step, and reassembly must indeed be precise, without any ash in the crevices, and replacement with new gasketing.

What warps first is the "throat" that ducts hot gases into the catalytic/refractory area when the cat damper is closed. With continued overfiring, the fireback warps. Both parts won't go back in place once you take them out. Since you have to take the throat off to get to the cat, this becomes a major pain.

After all this travail, and replacing the stove with a QuadraFire Cumberland Gap last year, we discovered that we had overfiring with the NEW stove also.

Alas, it was the 35 foot masonry chimney and excessive draft that is the problem!

I concur with others on this thread who urge you to install a cheap pipe damper to control your draft before you try any disassembly moves. If it still overfires and is passing the dollar bill test on all the gaskets (the ash pan gasket is notoriously leaky!), then you might think of other leaks.

The VC tech who worked on ours recommended a smudge test, which is putting a smoke source in a cold stove with the flue plugged to see where the smoke escapes.

We are absolutely happy with a new Woodstock Fireview just installed last week--good air control and no overfiring!!


herbster

 

[AlanS]

I am not knowledable enough to know what a pipe damper is. What is it? Where can I get one and how is it installed? I am VERY handy, so there is little will stump me.
Also, YES, the moveable plate that goes over the fireback (I believe they refer to it as the Combustion throat hood), covering the cat entry IS warped...I can just about get it on the tabs. I didn't think this was an issue because it is INTERNAL to the stove. I removed the fireback and re-gasketed it. Again, I didn't think that the fireback would be an issue because it, too , is internal, not really a leak issue to the outside.
The fireback goes back into it's slot, and the wedges fit, but I THINK it could fit more snuggly.
The refractor is not in good shape, but is holding the cat...I, again, didn't think that it would be the cause of 'over-firing'.
So...does any of this make sense?

 

[Todd]

Here's a picture of one. They are real cheap and easy to install inside the stove pipe above the stove collar. It will help slow down your draft. You can purchase these at any hardware store or big box Home Depot type store.
(broken link removed)

 

[AlanS]

Here's a picture of one. They are real cheap and easy to install inside the stove pipe above the stove collar. It will help slow down your draft. You can purchase these at any hardware store or big box Home Depot type store.
(broken link removed)

How do I know if I need one? What if I install it and I don't need it...meaning: What will happen if it is used but not needed?

 

[humpin iron]

The Encore was never meant to work with a pipe damper, as most cat stoves were not. The stove is 10, it is recommended that cast stoves be completely rebuild at about 8 years of service. Your stove is all tongue and grove joints, the cement wears out after all the expansion and contraction causing the stove to leak-get free air-i.e. run hot

 

[AlanS]

The Encore was never meant to work with a pipe damper, as most cat stoves were not. The stove is 10, it is recommended that cast stoves be completely rebuild at about 8 years of service. Your stove is all tongue and grove joints, the cement wears out after all the expansion and contraction causing the stove to leak-get free air-i.e. run hot

Since I cannot find a "take it apart/ put it together" manual, can I assume the following: Remove the lower and upper firebacks...remove the refractory, remove the inner walls.
Will this, then, expose the side/edge joints? Should I cement / re-cement these joints? If so, what EXACTLY do I use? Are there any other areas to seal/ cement?

 

[Paxson]

Oh oh. I am getting a little nervous reading this whole conversation.

Just this week, we replaced the throat cover on our 12 year old 2550 Encore. It has been hard to get it back into the stove the last couple of years, when I cleaned and reassembled the stove. Just this weekend it finally got so warped it actually fell out. I was glad to to be able to purchase a new piece for $31 plus shipping.

We've been happy with the stove - primary heat for our Minnesota farm house. I've replaced the catalytic burner, one chunk of glass and some gaskets.

I'd better keep my eye on "old Trusty!"

 

[humpin iron]

To properly rebuild that stove you must take it all apart. You are describing taking the insides out, I'm describing taking the WHOLE stove apart. I've rebuilt over 500 VC stoves. The Encore would be a whole day project for me. Bear in mind that's with a full parts department at my disposal. A typical rebuild for that stove would also include about 5-700 dollars worth of parts.
You may want to limp it through this season and consider a new stove next spring

Paxson: When the hood starts to fall out on it's own, it typically means the firebacks are warped. Open the griddle top and see if where the fireback meets the damper there is a "smile" at the top of the fireback. If yes then you are due for a rebuild also.
One problem with Encores is that they tend to be a domino rebuild, everything you touch leads to something else that needs to be replaced, that's where the 5-700 $$ comes from.

 

[Paxson]

Thanks for the heads-up. I think I understand. I'll check it out when I get home from work tonight. It hasn't been running any different than usual.

We get a good 7-8 hour burn, at least to the extent that there are enough coals left to be able to chuck in some kindling and get the fire going again easily.

We burn good wood; oak, hard maple and hickory, all at least a year old.

 

[HeatsTwice]

To properly rebuild that stove you must take it all apart. You are describing taking the insides out, I'm describing taking the WHOLE stove apart. I've rebuilt over 500 VC stoves. The Encore would be a whole day project for me. Bear in mind that's with a full parts department at my disposal. A typical rebuild for that stove would also include about 5-700 dollars worth of parts.

Yes not to mension labor. If you pay yourself $100 per hour and it takes all day to rebuild you will be "into it" for more than $1300. I found myself in the same situation last year. I cut bait, sold the stove for $500 and bought a Napoleon 1900 and am very glad I did.

I am really down on VC but I'm sure they have some good things about them. My experience was terrible.

 

[swestall]

OH MY, I am so happy my VC stoves are stored in the basement to never be used again...

I think the damper might be a good soulution while you are continuing to use this stove; just slow the draw down to the point it does not overfire.

 

[Diabel]

OH MY, I am so happy my VC stoves are stored in the basement to never be used again...

I think the damper might be a good soulution while you are continuing to use this stove; just slow the draw down to the point it does not overfire.

Hey Swestall,

How is the Mansfield working out, it is your first season with it right ;-)

 

[swestall]

Hey! IT is actually the second season. You might recall I threw the Defiant out the door at the end of December last year and installed the Mansfield. I am getting a lot of heat for the amount of wood I am using. I would say the Mansfield is heads over the Defiant Non-CAT. (which was just junk) I might have gotten the Defiant to work a bit better had I been able to get and exact 8 inch flue to it, but that was impossible since my flue was an 8x12 with a slight bend; as it was I had a time getting the 6 inch with a wrap down there.
The old Defiant CAT stove put out a bit more heat for a bit longer I think. But, that's history too and they burn out pretty easy.
So all in all I am very happy with the Mansfield. I never have any problem getting it to light off. In the morning or evening when we reload it we just throw two or three splits in, open the air and off it goes. And, it only takes about 3-5 minutes max to have no smoke from the stack at all: quite a difference from the Defiant Non=CAT where I'd be babysitting it all night to just try to get it into "everburn": the heck with that....
After long thought, I might have also been very happy with the PE Aldera 6. BeGreen went with that and he seems to be getting great performance. I think that it might radiate a bit more heat and a bit more quickly as the soapstones are a bit slower on the uptick and radiate a lot longer on the burn down. But, I am happy with it. In fact I asked my wife about it also and she said she'd very happy and never has any problem getting it to take off in the morning (she's the first one down).
I still have both VC's in my basement. I think I'll wait till I see a really needy family and give them one. The CAT stove I might replace the CAT, clean it up and re-cement it then use it someplace.
I have this old rail king coal stove which was the original stove at the Quincy Train Station in MASS. I am thinking of putting it back together and installing it in the basement. I could stoke it in the AM and it'd be running hot at 9PM which would give us temp maintenance while we are off earning a living....

Best to all.SW

 

[markleyh]

To properly rebuild that stove you must take it all apart. You are describing taking the insides out, I'm describing taking the WHOLE stove apart. I've rebuilt over 500 VC stoves. The Encore would be a whole day project for me. Bear in mind that's with a full parts department at my disposal. A typical rebuild for that stove would also include about 5-700 dollars worth of parts.
You may want to limp it through this season and consider a new stove next spring

Paxson: When the hood starts to fall out on it's own, it typically means the firebacks are warped. Open the griddle top and see if where the fireback meets the damper there is a "smile" at the top of the fireback. If yes then you are due for a rebuild also.
One problem with Encores is that they tend to be a domino rebuild, everything you touch leads to something else that needs to be replaced, that's where the 5-700 $$ comes from.

Amen. That was our experience also. We thought of it as a cast-iron Rubik's cube--every part affects every other part. Don't even get me started about taking out the bypass damper!

herbster

 

[AlanS]

Well, I hear all the 'down notes', but understand that I do not have the cash to load into a new stove. All I want is to reduce the heat on the current stove so that my $$$ is not going up in smoke.
How does a warped throat cover and fireback effect the stove? I would think that ONLY an air leak would cause it to run hot. Why can't I just 're-seal' the seams?

 

[humpin iron]

you can't re-seal inside the tongue & grove joint without taking the stove apart, 100% apart. The throat prevents flame from getting to the cat and killing it. Put the pipe damper in to help, but its not a fix. It's like driving slow on a flat, it's still flat.
Might want to drop the ash pan housing and reseal to the bottom of the stove, I found that bad more than once and with a leak there it provides under fire air. This shows up as a bright spot in the coal bed

 

[AlanS]

you can't re-seal inside the tongue & grove joint without taking the stove apart, 100% apart. The throat prevents flame from getting to the cat and killing it. Put the pipe damper in to help, but its not a fix. It's like driving slow on a flat, it's still flat.
Might want to drop the ash pan housing and reseal to the bottom of the stove, I found that bad more than once and with a leak there it provides under fire air. This shows up as a bright spot in the coal bed

I will p/u the pipe damper. Does it matter where in the pipe it goes? I only have about 1-1/2' before the pipe makes the 90 degree bend out of the room. And that pipe is (of course) double walled).
As far as the pan housing...do I have to turn the stove over to re-seal this? Can I do it while it's 'in place'? And, thanks for your help.

 

[humpin iron]

it's gonna be a groan to do the pipe damper in double walled pipe. may want to track down the double wall pipe mfg and see if they offer a piece with a damper built in.
The ash pan housing is held up with a few 1/4-20 bolts, 7/16 head, block under the center of the housing, undo bolts, drop housing and slide out from under the stove. It's tight but it will work.

 

[markleyh]

Woodstock sells a double-wall pipe damper on their webstore, for 6 inch pipe (http://store.woodstove.com/xcart/product.php?productid=16662&cat=289&page=1).

It sells for $65, unfortunately. You can't see it from the photo, but it is double-wall.


I found that the ash pan gasket was a common cause of overfiring, also, but didn't have to take the bottom of the stove off--just replaced the gasket around the door and bent up the metal tab. I think you did that already, though.

In spite of all the negative vibes about the VC Defiant/Encore, including those I have contributed, we found with all our rebuilding that the problem was excessive draft from our long chimney--over 35 feet interior masonry. We had the same problem with a brand new QuadraFire Cumberland Gap which replaced the VC, but it was even worse, as there is no way to shut the secondary air down when it starts overdrafting....got real interesting real fast.....

I would try removing a piece of your chimney connector, then drill holes in from either side to fit the damper pin--slide the pin in and work it through the fittings in the damper plate, out the other side and then reassemble. Might be a good idea to have a spare piece of connector pipe just in case.

I firmly believe that if we had tried this trick before rebuilding the VC twice, then we'd still be using it.

Good luck!

Herbert