Voglezang- Specifics PLEASE

[BikeMedic2709]

I have heated with wood (& coal for a short while) for most of my life as a primary source of heat. (Including processing ALL of my own cord wood.) I am currently in the market for a new wood stove. I also have been a non-registered fan of this site, as well as a few others, pertaining to all aspects of wood heat. What I am saying is this. I am not a "newbie" by any twist of the imagination. (I will also add that I am a Professional Firefighter, Fire Inspector, and Paramedic.)
My question is this.. Why are VOGELZANG STOVES so bad. Please, be specific. I have done a search on this and many other sites and no-one will give specifics. I am looking very closely at purchasing a VOGLEZANG DEFENDER (model # TR001, EPA cert. @ 4.21 G/Hr) and/or the VOGLEZANG HIGHLANDER (model TR003, EPA cert 5.76 G/Hr). This corp. states that both stoves are EPA certified and are "Safety tested to UL standards 1482-1998 and ULC 5629." ( I understand that the Underwriters Lab. /ULC didn't nessessarily test this specific stove.)
I sincerely request your feedback on these particular stoves. Your information will greatly be appreciated!

 

[webbie]

Nothing wrong with those EPA models.

The bad rep comes from the many stoves they sell that are not EPA approved, etc.

 

[BikeMedic2709]

Thank you, for your reply! I am sure you can understand my concern. I currently am using an older stove that has served me very well over the years. It is a Washington Stove Works, Olympic-Crest. I was in the process of a complete rebuild & I noticed the baffle plate is cracked. Not sure if it is worth the attempted repair. Any thoughts on this subject? I am completely stress about the decision!

 

[elkimmeg]

The operative words are tested to but not certified
If you read your own code NFPA 211 a stove has to be listed and labled. The listing agency for wood stoves is UL. If it is not UL isited and certified then it can not be installed per code It can not be installed in occupiable space. It can be installed in an out building shed or dog house but not within your primmary residence.
Test to a standard dose not confirm that it met the standard , does it? In advertising it is a play on words I have made the investigative inspections after the fire dept has extinguished, the runaway fire a Zolzanger stove started.

. Many of these stoves are un listed and made of cheap thin cast, there is no quality control. If I had my way they should not be sold to the public . Many of these stoves do not have gasketed doors. Once the get roaring, the air by passes the lack of gasketing, and ever closing the air inlet can not bring them under control. You have a run away fire in your home. It gets cherry red, hot enough to split the thin inferior cast and explode into your home.

Let my play out what happened in the three incidents I have done investigative reports. All installations were not permitted. Insurance investigators read my report and findings, Public record. What is the chance the insurance co will make a full payout?

 

[BrotherBart]

I wouldn't buy a VZ stove because of the lightweight 3/16 steel construction. But if you are looking for that class of stove why not go to Lowes next month and buy a Century stove. They are the low end lighter plate steel stoves from Vermont Castings. That saves you going the mail order route and Lowes has a 30 day no questions asked return policy. Century is warranted for five years. VZ is one year.

And the price and specs are about the same. Less if the VZ is going to have a shipping charge.

 

[elkimmeg]

The Epa certs grams per hour are way above qualifying for certifications This being true, they are not EPA certified again misleading advertising. They failed. You are not buying an EPA certified stove but one that failed certification. and not UL certified
either

Volzang may make some models that are Ul listed and epa certified, those are the ones you should purchase not the cheap imported un certified ones

 

[webbie]

The operative words are tested to but not certified
If you read your own code NFPA 211 a stove has to be listed and labled. The listing agency for wood, Can't claim ingorance? Is this the position you want to put youeself in? What is the chance the insurance co will make a full payout? again do you feel lucky?

Elk, what are you saying? I can't read through all the back and forth.

These stoves are tested and listed and EPA certified. So they meet all specs needed.

2 of the stoves are EPA certified (Highlander and Defender), and the mountaineer is exempt.

They are all UL - I looked at the manuals and they are quite complete and seem accurate.

I'm certain these stoves have labels on them. Which means they are listed. You should not hold them to a standard any different than any other stove on the market.

Anyway, I see no problem with their EPA and UL approved stoves. As far as 3/16 steel, you will see 3/16 and even 1/8 in a lot of stoves. Elk owned an Efel Kamina which lasted over 20 years and is less than 1/16 thick, so I would not use weight or thickness to compare.

BUT, the prices of these are not all that great when the firebox size is considered. Maybe you should look at Century or ask about the new Avalon/Lopi unit that starts at $999. - Compare the cubic ft size of the fireboxes......

As far as your Crest, cracks in the baffles don't mean a lot - nothing that a little furnace cement can't fix. But that stove has seen it's day and is not bening nearly as clean as todays models.

 

[BikeMedic2709]

Again, thank you for the replys. I will consider the VC.

I will take a point with you... ELKIMMEG...

If this is the tone you use with everyone you inspect, you are incredibly UNPROFESSIONAL! A disgrace. The "Dirty Harry" remarks are pitiful. DO NOT MISUNDERSTAND ME!! I WILL NEVER PLACE MY FAMILY OR HOME IN HARMS WAY, INTENTIONALLY! I have wittness the gross realities of a residential structure fire firsthand. I AM AN ADVOCATE OF FIRE SAFETY. I WILL NEVER BE COUGHT "SCOFFING" AT FIRE SAFETY CODE! I AM MORE THAN CERTAIN, THAT I AM QUAILIFIED TO UNDERSTAND THE EDITING OF ADVERTISING AND FUNDEMENTALS OF UL LISTING AND CODE. I DO HAVE A DEGREE IN FIRE SCIENCE. YOU? Furthermore, I am exquisitly aware of the shortcomings of the "CODE", you speak of. I am simply doing my homework to make a concerted decision. This is why I asked for the specifics. Not your foolhearty drivle. (Apparantly you have not done your homework. You should look more closely at the spec. of the given units I proposed. If this is the way you conduct yoursef as an "Inspector" I feel sorry for the constituants you "serve". )

For your future reference. Make no mistake. ALL FIREFIGHTERS, ATTEMPT TO PRESERVE LIFE, LIMB, AND PROPERTY.

"It is better to keep your mouth closed and have people think you are a fool. Then to open it and remove all doubt. "

-Ben Franklin

 

[elkimmeg]

I suggest you read both post exact cut and paste

Volzang may make some models that are Ul listed and epa certified, those are the ones you should purchase not the cheap imported un certified ones

like you I try to save lives. I try to prevent the situation that requires your profession to respond to. If I do my job you will not have to make an unnesscary calls. I will not issue an unlisted un labled stove. I'm sorry you take issue with that stand. I have plenty of code lauguage to support that stance. I'm, sorry that I offended you but the memories from Volzang stove incidents are etched in my mind. Had the owner applied for permits I could have spared them a lot of grief. Am I wrong for feeling this way? Maybe emotions caused me to emphatically state my dislike for the stove maunfactures the purposely uses misleading advertising techniques. Don't Believe me read their listings and decsriptions of their cheap box stoves They admit to not being Ul approved.

Maybe my method was crass but it got your attention and warned you to be certaint to check out what you are planning to purchase
No I do not read or know every manufactures product sold or every listing. I read the ones people submitt to me for permitting. I do not go to the manufactures web site and read all their listings. I guess I should have in this instance. If the possible stoves were actually listed then I am in error. However that manufactures has models that are not. Again I made exception to the ones that are certified.

I feel sorry for the constituants you “serve”.

If I was not doing my job there would be less to serve and more work for fire fighters.

 

[HarryBack]

Again, thank you for the replys. I will consider the VC.

I will take a point with you... ELKIMMEG...

If this is the tone you use with everyone you inspect, you are incredibly UNPROFESSIONAL! A disgrace. The "Dirty Harry" remarks are pitiful. DO NOT MISUNDERSTAND ME!! I WILL NEVER PLACE MY FAMILY OR HOME IN HARMS WAY, INTENTIONALLY! I have wittness the gross realities of a residential structure fire firsthand. I AM AN ADVOCATE OF FIRE SAFETY. I WILL NEVER BE COUGHT "SCOFFING" AT FIRE SAFETY CODE! I AM MORE THAN CERTAIN, THAT I AM QUAILIFIED TO UNDERSTAND THE EDITING OF ADVERTISING AND FUNDEMENTALS OF UL LISTING AND CODE. I DO HAVE A DEGREE IN FIRE SCIENCE. YOU? Furthermore, I am exquisitly aware of the shortcomings of the "CODE", you speak of. I am simply doing my homework to make a concerted decision. This is why I asked for the specifics. Not your foolhearty drivle. (Apparantly you have not done your homework. You should look more closely at the spec. of the given units I proposed. If this is the way you conduct yoursef as an "Inspector" I feel sorry for the constituants you "serve". )

For your future reference. Make no mistake. ALL FIREFIGHTERS, ATTEMPT TO PRESERVE LIFE, LIMB, AND PROPERTY.

"It is better to keep your mouth closed and have people think you are a fool. Then to open it and remove all doubt. "

-Ben Franklin

ouch....I may not agree with everything that Elk says....but he does do a great service here, IMHO. Dont know him personally, but he seems to know the code as well if not better than most. He might not have the best spelling, punctuation, and bedside manner, but hes not a spelling or grammar teacher. The help and ideas he imparts here are of his own free will, on his own time, and to no gain for himself. You can listen to him, hear his opinions, like everyone else here, and make a better informed decision. The folks here see alot of very unsafe issues, and often cannot by the posting ascertain how safe/unsafe the person is. Im sorry you construed his post to be inflammatory and imply you were unsafe....I didnt read it that way, but I can understand your point. Read what everyone has to say, make a decision.....please dont take it personally.

 

[webbie]

The biggest mistake we sometimes make it to shoot first and ask questions later.
We should do our own research on the models asked about and then give advice like you'd give it to a brother or sister. Certainly the person who is ready to put a stovepipe through the window of a boiler in the living room deserves the WRATH - but most people here seem to be at least headed in the right direction.

Back to the stove - as I said, the biggest problem seems to be the price - 900-1000 for a 1.2 cubic foot firebox is not all that great - can someone here fill us in on the new larger 999 Lopi/Avalon? or similar stoves? I suspect 2.0 cubic foot boxes or bigger.

Here it is - The Avalon Spokane:
https://www.hearth.com/hpba06/source/img_0505.1.html

 

[elkimmeg]

I will be retreating and editing my post to make it less objectional

 

[BikeMedic2709]

I have thought the same thing. It is a small firebox. I will look into to the Avalon. My parents have a Lopi "Liberty". Very nice stove. It has a huge firebox!
In response to my rebuild query. Will the refractory hold up if placed onto the cracked baffle? Or, could I use Rutland stove cement? Is it worth it? I would like to keep this stove, and use it if at all possible.. It is an amazing heater. Albeit ineffiecent.

(Thank you for your clarity from the other posts. ELK... Thank you as well. No hard feelings. Sincerely.)

 

[elkimmeg]

I agree the fire box is quite small what is your setup and area you are trying to heat

Bb made a suggestion for a cheaper approved stove., Another place to search is Home Depot . they sell englanders that might fit your situation. Some chain hardware stores cary stoves made by US steel, that also are cheaper and certified. Me I rebuild brand names as a cheaper alternative. No problem I over stated my response. I'd like to blame a bad golf day but 3 bridies boggies and pars I can deal with.

 

[wg_bent]

Not sure what size your looking at, but the Dutchwest stoves from VC are also a less expensive line of stoves that seem to heat well, Also, Napoleon should be looked at in the lower end stove market.

The Dutchwest stoves come in 3 sized, and the largest are pretty big and can be had CAT or non-CAT.

If looking for the huge stoves...Try Largest of the Lopi or Osburn or Pacific energy.

If you have hot air heat in the home, a pretty nifty one is a "stove" that HD sells that is a hot air furnace add on. It hooks into the heating system and has it's own blower. If I had Hot air heat, I'd seriously consider one of these.

 

[MountainStoveGuy]

quadrafire 2100 is roughly $1000, the 3100 is roughly $1200. The 3100 is in the 2cubic foot range, and 1.2 grams per hour. and 73% efficient. A lot of bang for the buck.

Here is a link, i have a hard time swallowing there claims of 78%
http://quadrafire.com/products/stoves/woodStoveDetail.asp?f=3100actMILL

 

[Roospike]

My brother "HAD" the stove like "Vogelzang Defender Wood-Burning Stove, Model# TR00" He wanted to save money on his first stove buy + have the cash to buy the stainless steel stove pipe . He had a house 950 sf and this little stove is down right "cute" "funny" and not a serious stove to be in a house . Some one stated small fire box ........... small fire box is only half of it. You almost had to get on your belly to load the darn thing it sat so low to the ground . Also the heat time were at best 3 maybe 4 hours per load and when it was cold out side you run it wide open and when you are ready to reload the stove you had to take out hot coal to make room for more wood , No $chit. If you have a chance to see one up close you will understand the "cute" size it is . My brother used it 1 year and had enough of that stove and when he sold it he only got $72. for it . The other model " Vogelzang Highlander Wood-Burning Stove with Blower, Model# TR003" is small at best too . Here is the description of it per the web site Note what it says about the install usage "Ideal for cabins, garages, hunting camps, lodges" This is NOT a serious wood stove for your home. Not a good area to go cheap and buy the bottom barrel of the wood stove line. Here is the detail from the web page----->

Built-in blower 200 CFM.
Ideal for cabins, garages, hunting camps, lodges and more
Heavy-duty 3/1. steel plate construction
Primary air inlet at front ignites wood at bottom; secondary rear air inlet feeds air to top of firebox to fully consume wood for maximum burning efficiency
Stove accepts logs up to 18in. in length
Heats up to 1800 sq. feet
Firepot Depth: 12in.
26,300 BTU rating
Door Opening: 17in.
Fuel: Wood
Flue Size (Round): 6in.
Dimensions: 26in.W x 20in.D x 33in.H
May not be installed in mobile homes
Stove pipe not included
Clearance from combustible walls: 15in. from side walls. 12in. from rear wall and corners.
Truck Ship
Model TR003 63% efficient

 

[wg_bent]

I looked up the hilander specs:

SPECIFICATIONS
Height (Overall)...................32”
Width..............................25.5”
Depth.................................20”
Firebox Depth.....................12”
Firebox Width...................18.5"
Flue Size (Round).................6”
Firebox Volume....1.285 cubic ft
Door Opening......................17"
Material..........Cast Iron & Steel
Fuel...............................Wood
BTU Rating (cord wood)...68,000 BTUs
(EPA constant - 26,300 BTUs)
Emissions........5.76 grams/hour
Weight..........................280 lbs.
Pcs. per Container..............132

That is a very small fire box. Among the smallest around. It claims a 18.5' width, but I'd be doubtful of very good burn times with that stove.

For the same money you can get a Napoleon 1100 that has a firebox of 1.7 cuft or for 100 bucks more or so, a 1400 with a fire box volume of 2.25 cuft and considerably less emmissions. (Plus the Napoleons are like 130 lbs heavier...I wonder why the difference in weight? thicker materials?)

Just offering suggestions.

 

[BrotherBart]

In response to my rebuild query. Will the refractory hold up if placed onto the cracked baffle? Or, could I use Rutland stove cement? Is it worth it? I would like to keep this stove, and use it if at all possible.. It is an amazing heater. Albeit ineffiecent.

I had a new baffle made at the local iron works last year. It took the guy about fifteen minutes to copy the old one in slightly heavier gauge plate steel. They cut the plate and did three bends to match the old baffle for $48.