Wanna help me choose a soapstone or cast iron stove?

[begreen]

If the stove manual says that reduced clearances are allowable with NFPA wall shielding or some such language, then it is possible to reduce clearances by up to 2/3ds. For Example in the Enviro Boston manual they phrase it this way:
"*ALL CLEARANCES CAN BE REDUCED WITH SHIELDING ACCEPTABLE TO THE LOCAL AUTHORITY." and PE Alderlea says: "Clearances may be reduced with various heat insulating materials. Consult local fire
codes and authorities for approval." But with a rear clearance of only 5" on the T5 (with double-wall pipe), you are not going to get a lot closer. More important should be how well the stove will do the job. Note that with the Alderlea you would not need a side shield wall. The stove sides do not get that hot. I would put up a temporary child gate instead.

How open is this kitchen area to the rest of the house?

 

[Ponderosa Pyro]

Hi everyone,

I'm a brand-spankin'-newbie here, and can't tell you how glad I am to have found Hearth.com. We're finishing our place on a tight schedule (owner of the rental is selling, and we don't want/can't afford to move twice, especially when we're so close!), and I really need to get the stove figured out.

Details:

Smallish space (700-ish sq ft). Building is 24x36, but due to attic trusses, the floor space inside is smaller than the 836 of the footprint. Ceiling is close enough to usual to not be a factor. (Higher in the middle, at 11', but only 7.5' in the living room & bedroom, due to attic trusses.)

We've got a corner to put the stove in, in the kitchen area, that's 32" deep x 50" wide (or within a few inches). I'm fine with having the tile come out into the walkway, as it'll be the same height as the hardwood. I just don't want the stove to reach out into the traffic pattern. I'd love a side-loading stove for this very reason; but it's got to load from the left. (Fwiw, I'm planning on ceramic tile on the walls (basic subway in white) and some kind of stone tile on the floor--just have to find something that'll match the height of the hickory wood flooring.)

There are a lot of us (eight in the family--I know, we're crazy, but just trust me that minimalist living for a few years is a really good thing for us), so I'm thinking that a stove a little bigger than one would think would be a good thing, as we'll have a lot of airflow in the place just so we all don't asphyxiate in winter, (we'll spend most good weather days outside in the garden, woods, etc.). I also want something that will still have a good bed of coals after eight or so hours so we won't wake up to a frigid house.

Lest you think we're certifiable, this is on 12 acres, with woods and pasture, and we'll be building an ICF home in a couple years (gotta save for that while we have such a low mortgage). So, plenty of room for the kids (heck, all of us) to have some space and freedom outside of the little box that will keep us from freezing in the winter.

I've got my eye on Hearthstone stoves . . . I really don't want a catalytic converter because I'm worried about it failing or needing to be rebuilt. We need a stove that's going to be something we can maintain ourselves as much as possible. (If such a thing still exists . . . ;o) I love the soapstone, and the more gentle heat and less blistering surfaces . . . growing up with wood heat, I think it would be much better for a small space than a steel stove. (Or maybe cast iron would work, too? I love the look of them, but don't know much else.) My brothers and I lived in fear of the black steel stove we had. lol I do want something I could use to cook on if the electricity went out, or we went off-grid. (Both very real possibilities.) I'm thinking the Tribute is a little too small; the Homestead looks about right, but there's no side door, and I worry about how shallow the box is for loading & spillage; and the Heritage looks nearly perfect, (maybe a little big?) . . . but I've been around various blocks enough times to worry that there's really no perfect solution. (Which I'm okay with. )

I've been encouraged by the friendly and chatty feel of all of the threads I've read, (trying to figure out if I needed to post this question, or if it had already been answered), and I look forward to hearing what y'all have to say, both expected and unexpected. I really do love the Hearthstone stoves, but I'm open to discussing other options. (And my DH would love to hear about other, less expensive options. lol) I've done what research I can, but with packing and everyone sick this week (don't ask--it's not good timing! lol), I'm a little strapped for spare minutes in which to google something that I know so little about.

Sooooo . . . enlighten me, please!

 

[Ponderosa Pyro]

Hi,Annalea,I noticed you are thinking of an ICF house.That is what we built in the mountains above Boise.Idaho City as a matter of fact.We are still finishing the house which is 3000 sq.ft.with a full basement and a 2200 sq.ft.garage.All exterior wall are ICF.I can give you some advice as far as contractors and the building process in general.Oh yeh,we are putting in a Woodstock Progress Hybrid on the main floor.Expect to move into house in approx.2 years.Good luck with your project.North ID is beautiful,but WE have the BSU Broncos down here.I'm sure Oklahoma remembers them!!

 

[Dix]

Annalea, GF, welcome to the forums !! Always nice to see another "Sistah" here *thinks Craig should make "Sistah" a real word here*

You're getting some good advice, hang in there, we'll get it done.

8 people in that space? HSF ! You rock

 

[Todd]

If you don't like the looks of the Woodstock's maybe take a looksee at the new Blaze King Chinook or Sirroco. They are also cat stoves but don't fear them they can be turned way down low for a longer lower output which would be a good fit for your smaller space.

 

[BrotherBart]

I am still trying to get my head around eight people in 700 sq. ft. !! Somebody gonna have to sleep ON the stove.

Insulate well and body heat and two candles will heat it to 10 below zero.

 

[Armoured]

lol . . . and which stove would that be?

In my case, one of the woodstocks is what I'd really like.

Thought on another point: you have a fairly sizeable hot water closet there. Since space is at a premium, and you're numerous, have you considered a tankless water heater? Would save you space (they go on a wall) and with that big a family, tanks are bound to run out anyway.

 

[Bub381]

Don't like the looks of a Woodstock?!!lol to each their own.I just put a new Fireview in after the Jotul Rangeley,1 was 2ndary this new 1 is cat.It's the cats meow. Just remember to look long and hard and all the advice you'll need is here.I do know 1 thing,i wish i had gone to this Woodstock stove 1st cause last yr was my 1st yr burning and i looked and studied hard.I went 1 size up from my sq ft allowances and still got too big of a stove resulting in hot temps and creosote build up.The Woodstock 6 month return would've saved me the $1000 loss i had to swallow.Believe me,that hurt.Try selling a second hand stove,you'll get roughly 50% back from that new to you woodstove ya just installed.Not saying this will happen,just saying it sure can.I wish you all the luck in the world,go slow and study hard.

 

[tfdchief]

Hi AnnaLea welcome to the forum! Lots of good advice has been given and I can only speak to the T-5 or Consolidated Dutchwest stoves. The T-5 is relatively new and so far we love it. Long burns, plenty of heat and ember protection only hearth requirement. I have compiled a partial list of ember protection only hearth and here it it is.. Hope this helps!

All Pacific Energy Alderlea stoves
All Pacific Energy models
Lopi Endeavor
Lopi Revere
Blaze King Chinook
Blaze King Princess
Hampton H200 (unsure, manual gives conflicting information)
Regency CS1200
Jotul F100
Jotul Oslo 500
Jotul Rangely
Hearthstone Bari, Tula and Mansfield
Vermont Castings Encore (with bottom heatshield)
All Enviro freestanding stoves

Good Luck!
Ray

I provided the Hampton info and the manual certainly is conflicting. ember protection on one page and .84K on another page. However, after burning this stove for over a full year, I can tell you it never gets hot enough under the stove that you can't comfortably hold your hand on it. I have measured with a IR gun and never found under the stove to be above 110. It gets hotter out in front of the stove than under it. That is with the regular legs, in one place in the manual says ember protection only......quite adequate IMO.

 

[Annalea]

Thanks so much for the info, Steve. It's really helpful (especially your experience with the Hampton). Today's a day of packing and reading up on stoves, so you'll all probably see more of me tomorrow . . . I wonder what today has in store . . .

 

[Annalea]

Well, snot. DH just reminded me that installing a water jacket on the stove is an absolute priority, and he doesn't believe it can be done on any of the beautiful stoves I've found. Does anyone know if there's a way to install a water jacket (not just a steel loop of pipe--those get too hot and fail too soon) on the outside of any cast iron stoves? It's looking like I might end up with a rather unappealing steel box . . .

Or does anyone know of a reasonably small cookstove? (Besides the Vermont baker one . . . )

 

[charly]

Well, snot. DH just reminded me that installing a water jacket on the stove is an absolute priority, and he doesn't believe it can be done on any of the beautiful stoves I've found. Does anyone know if there's a way to install a water jacket (not just a steel loop of pipe--those get too hot and fail too soon) on the outside of any cast iron stoves? It's looking like I might end up with a rather unappealing steel box . . .

Or does anyone know of a reasonably small cookstove? (Besides the Vermont baker one . . . )

I would take a minute a minute and call Woody, at Obadiah's Wood Stoves. Tell him your situation, he sells a variety of stoves and wood cook stoves. I bought my Esse cook stove from him. Good honest Christian person. 1-800-968-8604.
Charlie

 

[learningasigoalong]

Welcome Annalea,

I'm new too and all I can say is wow. So many responses and so much help. Makes me wish I had come here before I got my stove (last October). I have a Jotul F3 in 750s/ft and use it to heat up one room upstairs too. Its cast iron and non cat. I have no complaints but we did not have a tough winter this year (so. NH) so I need to see how it does in a cold winter to be a better judge of stove vs. space. Above all else, listen to the pros here, you should probably shop for your wood supply while you decide on the stove. In my short time as a wood stove owner I can honestly say you can never have enough fire wood and the more seasoned the better.

Good Luck

 

[NH_Wood]

I wonder if you should consider purchasing a used, cheap stove for use in this small space, and then save for the perfect stove for your larger home you plan to build in the next few years. It wouldn't be fun to find out that the stove you spent a lot of money on for the small home is not the best fit for the new construction. Just my 2 cents. I've been very happy with my Mansfield for the past two seasons. No problems. Good luck! Cheers!

 

[mfglickman]

Backwoods Savage, almost thou persuadest me to buy a cat stove. Thanks for the info! And thanks to you, and Wade, for the advice on wood. It's still really wet here (we don't finish with the swampy part of the year 'til the middle of May, sometimes early June), so that's when we'll start on wood. We've got good friends with chainsaws that know how to use them, and we'll make a big party of it (including the wood shed raising). We'll be able to start on wood in earnest after we're moved. Right now we need to focus on making sure there's running water and a toilet installed.

There's so much wood heating here that I believe I'll be able to find good dry wood if ours isn't ready. I hope we get some good, hot temps this summer so our own wood might be ready, but you never know. As for hard woods vs. soft woods, our property is mostly firs and spruces. Yes, there's some white pine and ponderosa, but those are in the minority. I don't believe that fir and spruce are as hard as your eastern hardwoods, but hopefully they'll burn alright. Anyone from my neck of the woods that knows what's best available up here?

Hi there,

I bought a 20 year old Woodstock Fireview this winter. I replaced the entire baffle, cat assembly, cat and most of the gaskets all by myself - with help from the sweep who installed it banging the old assembly out with a sledgehammer. All in I think it was $200 of parts, $120 or so of which was the cat itself. The cat is just a little box that you take out and dust off or take out and remove.

You were saying you can stockpile gaskets and door glass (???) but not a cat, and I'm not sure why.

All in I paid about half the cost of a full price new FV and reused an existing item rather than buying new which also appealed to me (and I'm guessing from your posts that might also appeal to you).

 

[Annalea]

I would love it if I could find a used stove that's a modern, efficient model. I'm concerned with keeping a really clean burn and keeping things as safe as possible. I've just found a Napoleon 1400C on Craigslist (local) for $1800, supposedly still in the crate due to the house sale for which it was purchased falling through. That stove has the right dimensions and requirements . . . my only question is if the back is flat enough that we could mount a slender water reservoir (just a couple gallons) to it. The sides are beautiful, but definitely not suited to that kind of purpose.

Any Napoleon 1400C owners out there that could tell me if the back of the stove is flat?

 

[mfglickman]

I would love it if I could find a used stove that's a modern, efficient model. I'm concerned with keeping a really clean burn and keeping things as safe as possible. I've just found a Napoleon 1400C on Craigslist (local) for $1800, supposedly still in the crate due to the house sale for which it was purchased falling through. That stove has the right dimensions and requirements . . . my only question is if the back is flat enough that we could mount a slender water reservoir (just a couple gallons) to it. The sides are beautiful, but definitely not suited to that kind of purpose.

Any Napoleon 1400C owners out there that could tell me if the back of the stove is flat?

Well my modern efficient stove is 20 years old...so they are out there as long as they've been cared for and the mfr still backs them up (big big kudos to Woodstock here for helping me throughout the process even though I did not buy a new stove).

What do you mean about a water reservoir on the back of the stove? Your clearances look pretty slim as is - if you want to heat water you could put a cast iron pot on the stove and have it steaming all day (double duty to hydrate the air AND have quick instant hot water on hand for tea etc.).

I am curious, too, when looking at the pics, about how a side loader is going to work in that space. If you're both trying to pinch in the clearances to the minimum AND then trying to use splits that are as long as your firebox can hold (assume 14 - 20 inch splits) to maximize space and save the woodcutter's sanity (of having to cut everything to, say, 10 inches), I'm afraid you're going to run into some aggravation loading from the side. You need to be able to open the door and then maneuver a split into a sometimes tight and often hot space, without bashing the wall/railings or burning your forearms. Just food for thought before you finalize your plan, I guess....

I'm also a bit uncertain on your comment above about sheetrock withstanding hundreds of degrees while the studs beneath them burn - sheetrock is a combustible...and if you heat it over and over again it (along with the studs behind it) lower their combustibility point. This is why mfrs require heat shields, R value on hearth pads, etc. to ensure that your studs don't just catch fire at a low temp two years from now...And if your studs are in flames, well, you'd better be out and calling the fire department.

If this is all stuff you already know, please disregard and cyber-slap me. I'm just trying to think for your best interest/success in this....

Mary

 

[Annalea]

Hi Mary, and thanks for the comments. I appreciate the cross-examination, since it questions my assumptions, and helps me get things straight. Thank you for keeping my best interest in mind. A lot of the details are still up in the air, but I'm trying to get things as figured out as I can well ahead of time. I'm so tired of having decisions sprung on me at the last second, and making choices that end up messing with plans for other things, ya know? So, I figure ironing this out as much as I can, poking at my assumptions and hopes and daydreams will allow me to see what works and what doesn't. I appreciate everyone who has been part of the process, and it has all helped a ton so far.

And now, on to your questions.

Modern stoves: I would love to find a good, used stove. I'm keeping my eyes open, definitely. Thanks for letting me know that there are good, older stoves, that are efficient and clean burning. (I'm still having a hard time grasping the fact that 20 years ago wasn't the stone age . . . must have something to do with aging, but I'm not sure what yet. It's new territory to me. lol)

Reservoir: With a slightly smaller stove, we could put a reservoir on the back of the stove that would only add 2" to the overall depth. The reservoir could also be mounted to the side, if the stove had a flat side plate. It would be plumbed into the water heater (in the closet just to the left of the stove in the floor plan earlier in the thread), and the water would circulate via thermosiphon. (That's a fun word to type. lol) It only needs to hold a couple gallons of water, since it'll be connected to the super insulated 55 gallon water heater with both inlet & outlet lines. We're wanting to stay away from needing electricity/propane to heat water, since we're already heating with wood (and odds are the stove will be more than up to it). We'll also have a solar water heating setup, but DH doesn't want to pay for a year-round vacuum tube (i.e. expensive) system. I do, but that's mostly because the stoves I like wouldn't necessarily accept a reservoir very well, and I don't want to mess with more pipes and stuff in the hearth area. Water coils inside the stove have a host of problems reservoirs don't have, and so we're not going there.

Side loading: I'm looking for a stove with a left side-loading door (as you're standing in front of the stove). That would face into the living room, and I could mount a swing-gate there in the railing to allow for easier access.

Sheetrock: I saw a video once, showing how sheetrock, exposed directly to flame for fifteen minutes, didn't catch fire, nor did it allow the fire to spread to the other side of the rock. Here's one short article that explains it more clearly: http://archrecord.construction.com/resources/conteduc/archives/0210gypsum-3.asp That said, we might end up taking out the drywall and putting up some kind of backerboard for tile. It all depends on what our code guy says. I'm definitely not one to skimp on safety, and I'll be checking on all of this in more detail soon. I haven't had a chance to talk to our stove installer friend yet about codes, etc.

K, this probably has more holes in it than answers, but I've got to go change a diaper. Right. Now.

Thanks again!

 

[BrowningBAR]

It is slim pickins in your area for a good used wood stove. This was all I could find, and most will still require a damn good car ride.

Jotul f400
http://oregoncoast.craigslist.org/for/2981564578.html

VC Encore (probably not a good choice for a first time burner)
http://kpr.craigslist.org/app/2984582849.html

A Hearthstone that seems to have licensed out their designs to "Soap Stone Wood Burning Stove". Looks to be an older design of the Heritage based on the depth of the stove.
http://twinfalls.craigslist.org/hsh/2942659409.html

Sweet Home Stove Works. I do not know this comapny/model, but it does look like it has reburn tubes in it so it seems to be an EPA model.
http://elko.craigslist.org/fuo/2953401859.html

Jotul f100
http://kpr.craigslist.org/wan/2954753096.html

Picture is of an Jotul f500, but the owner does not state which model it is.
http://reno.craigslist.org/for/2946313125.html

 

[begreen]

Well, snot. DH just reminded me that installing a water jacket on the stove is an absolute priority

Does DH understand what he is asking for and is he willing to install correctly and safely? Have you discussed this with your insurance agent and inspector?

 

[mellow]

Reservoir: With a slightly smaller stove, we could put a reservoir on the back of the stove that would only add 2" to the overall depth. The reservoir could also be mounted to the side, if the stove had a flat side plate. It would be plumbed into the water heater (in the closet just to the left of the stove in the floor plan earlier in the thread), and the water would circulate via thermosiphon. (That's a fun word to type. lol) It only needs to hold a couple gallons of water, since it'll be connected to the super insulated 55 gallon water heater with both inlet & outlet lines. We're wanting to stay away from needing electricity/propane to heat water, since we're already heating with wood (and odds are the stove will be more than up to it). We'll also have a solar water heating setup, but DH doesn't want to pay for a year-round vacuum tube (i.e. expensive) system. I do, but that's mostly because the stoves I like wouldn't necessarily accept a reservoir very well, and I don't want to mess with more pipes and stuff in the hearth area. Water coils inside the stove have a host of problems reservoirs don't have, and so we're not going there.

Check out this thread: https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads...duct-testing-with-pre-epa-stove-owners.77583/

Maybe you can buy an older stove for now and use that (if they still sell them) to heat the water with INSIDE the stove. No idea if it works or not but I remember that post from a ways back.

 

[granpajohn]

You are right about gypsum drywall being less than combustible (long story), BUT...
...for the purpose of stove codes, a typical drywall-on-stud wall is a combustible surface.

Don't worry though; there are plenty of stove backing designs to get close clearance, if necessary. Just depends on the look you prefer.

 

[fossil]

The only wall construction that pops into my mind as being non-combustible would be solid masonry or stone. Yeah, it'd be tough to start a piece of gypsum board on fire...but it's a crappy thermal insulator, readily transferring heat to the wood 1/2" away. A drywall-on-wooden stud wall is a combustible wall. Rick

ETA: About the water jacket/reservoir idea. While I certainly understand the temptation to take advantage of the heat generated by a wood burning appliance, I think that for all your efforts you would put into making that work, you'd be sorely disappointed with the performance. At the same time, you'd be altering the appliance in such a way as to void the manufacturer's warranty, which is based on the appliance being in the "as tested/certified" condition/configuration.

 

[Annalea]

Does DH understand what he is asking for and is he willing to install correctly and safely? Have you discussed this with your insurance agent and inspector?

DH does understand, and no, we haven't yet. He has researched pretty well, and talked thoroughly with a preparedness expert who has heated water this way for years. (Wood stove water reservoir in winter, solar thermosiphon in summer.) But, as with most things, it all depends on current codes, stoves, etc. I've narrowed down my pickings to stoves that seem to have flat backs (and/or sides):

Hampton H200
Hearthstone Heritage
Napoleon 1400C (possibly--the schematics aren't really clear it's the same model in the manual)
Napoleon 1100C
Jotul F3 & F100
Alderlea T4

Oh, and the Napoleon 1150 cookstove. (Not my favorite for looks, but it would get the job done, and I've seen plenty less attractive stoves in my day. )

I'm not all that thrilled with losing some depth in the firebox to a water reservoir, but we'll see what we end up talking through. One thing I can say about my DH (and he really is a dear, not a darn) is that he's open-minded and we talk through everything, and 99 times out of 100, we agree when we're all done. The other 1% of the time, I usually get my way. )

And, lest anyone think I'm overly influenced by looks, I've lived in so many places in the last fifteen years (moved nine times in our 13.5 years together), so many places that I couldn't fix what was broken or nasty or ugly because we were renting or about to sell (we've owned two homes and rented seven), that this home of ours simply must be lovely. It doesn't have to be top of the line, or uber-designer-beautiful . . . but it's mine, and I want to make it lovely to me. So, no Blaze Kings! (No offense to any BK afficionadoes out there . . . beauty and the beholder, and all that.)

Hmmmm . . . I think I need to start a spreadsheet. The data is getting to be more than I can hold in my head . . .

 

[Ashful]

Not sure I understand the concern with cat stoves. For most stoves, UPS or Fed Ex can have you a new cat overnight, in the unlikely event of a complete and instantaneous failure. Normal cat maintenance is as simple as vacuuming it a few times per year, maybe doing the vinegar soak once per year, and replacing every 3-5 years for $150. I don't see reburn flutes in non-cat stoves as being more indestructible, given the number of threads inquiring about replacing them.