"what should i expect to pay for a qudrafire 5100i and 4100i?" now looking for ZC wood burning ins

[par0thead151]

EDITED TO ADD.
i am now going to keep it simple for my first wood burning fireplace insert, and am considering ones that will fit in a ZC fireplace. specifically a Majestic SR42

the sizes from my manual i got with the magestic ZC housing are as follows…
front width: 47”
rear width: 26.25”
depth: 22”
height: 21” with 7.5” above that, where that black part that holds the data plate above the unit is(i was told that this can be cut if need be to fit a insert)






i have finaly settled on the quadrafire brand, and it will either be the 5100i or 4100i. my firebox has room for both as the company who is installing it will be tearing out my old prefab insert and adding this insert.
they have quoted $3,000 for the 5100 and $2,600 for the 4100I.
i am just wondering how these prices compare to what you guys have recently paid for this unit. i would like to get the best possible deal, and dont want to insult them by trying to ask for more of a discount if they are already giving a great price.
i believe i will be getting double insulated piping as well for this unit, they estimated that cost to be $500-$600 for all the accessories and hardware to do the install. and $500 for the install it self.
i was considering doing the install myself, however i would prefer to have a professional do it in the event i run into a fire down the road and insurance denies my claim as i installed the firebox, not a professional.
do these prices sound within reason, how about the recommended pipes for the chimney? will i need to have my chimney lined as well for this?
thanks all for your help, as this forum coupled with fireside hearth and homes help, have proven invaluable in educating me and getting to this point.
thanks again


edit to add:
i was also playing around with the idea of doing some hydronic hearing. my uncle mentioned how that would be a good way to get heat into my furnace, as i will be running the blower whenever i am running the fireplace as i have vaulted ceilings and not many fans, so i will need the air circulation.
has anyone done something like this? the only problems i can think of is when someone runs the fireplace and does not have the pump circulating the water, or if the pipes are empty of liquid, they will over heat and rupture/be damaged.
that risk alone makes the idea not so appealing.
just curious if any of you guys have a setup like this...

 

[MountainStoveGuy]

Some one is really confused. The 4100I and 5100I go inside the existing fireplace, and does NOT replace it. Your prefab fireplace is not going to get ripped out if you choose these products. The $500 install cost is standard, the $500 liner cost is standard, but does not sound like they are including insulation.

 

[par0thead151]

my prefab is not large enough to fit the 4100 or 5100.
also i was told it is only rated to handle the lower BTU's of say a jotul winterport 350.
maybe i was being told a lie/stretch to add more items to the install?
from the numbers i got from the guy, the 5100 was $3,035 including the shroud.
all accessories such as pipe and insulation for the pipe are 500-600 bucks, and the install is 500
hopefully he did not omit the cost of the insulation, as if i remember, that stuff can be a couple hundred bucks as well?
thanks

edited to add:
i am reading that the 5100i can heat a 3500 SQ foot home. i have 2600 sq feet, i would realy like to get some first hand experience on this unit, as if this is too large of a insert for my size home i would opt for the 4100i... assuming that there are disadvantages of having too large of a insert...
i would think that there is not many disadvantages in my case as my great room is where the fireplace is, and it has a huge vaulted cealing. everything is exposed, kitchen, dining room, foyer, great room and all of the upstairs. below is a photo of what i am trying to describe.
thanks

 

[MountainStoveGuy]

OK, im confused, if the pre fab fireplace is not large enough to fit the insert in, then how are you going to install a insert? Not to mention, i dont think that either of those models are approved for pre fab fireplaces anyway. You should be looking at pre fab fireplaces that are epa approved, like the quad 7100, Heatilator constitution... etc.

 

[par0thead151]

OK, im confused, if the pre fab fireplace is not large enough to fit the insert in, then how are you going to install a insert? Not to mention, i dont think that either of those models are approved for pre fab fireplaces anyway. You should be looking at pre fab fireplaces that are epa approved, like the quad 7100, Heatilator constitution... etc.

from what they explained to me(and they are a fairly reputable company that deals in fireplaces in the Milwaukee wi area)
they said that they would take out the old insert, and replace it with a custom sized insert so as to allow the 4100 and 5100 to fit in there...
i expressed my concern about the EPA approval for the ratings and whatnot, and the owner assured me that if they remove my current insert, and insulate it properly, i can safely run a 4100 or 5100.
maybe he is mistaken? or i somehow(very unlikely, as i asked pointed and specific questions specifically about this issue) misunderstood him
im giving the guy a call now to see if i misunderstood him.
the quad 7100 looks nice, but is a lot more expensive...

 

[BrotherBart]

For five hundred bucks he isn't going to remove a pre-fab fireplace much less install anything back into the hole that will allow a legal installation of one of those Quad inserts.

 

[MountainStoveGuy]

OK, this is really weird. Number 1, technically there is no Zero Clearance fireplace that is approved for wood burning inserts. However, that does not mean that we dont put them in as long as the insert is approved. A FEW inserts are approved for ZC fireplaces, but ZC fireplaces are not approved for inserts. Cute eh?

So, the dealer is going to remove the existing ZC fireplace, and re install a larger ZC fireplace that will fit a non approved insert. I dont think the 4100 or the 5100 are ZC approved, but i have to check. You do not have a insert, you have a ZC fireplace. There is no such thing as a "custom" ZC fireplace. They are all pre fab. Why in the world would they tear out a old one, and reinstall a larger one with new chimney, then install a insert with a liner in the chimney, when they could do the job proper and sell you a ZC fireplace that is epa approved? The epa fireplace may look like more up front, but it will be cheaper then all that other work. Makes ZERO sense.

 

[MountainStoveGuy]

If you want to talk, i will PM you my number. This sounds very scary and very illegal.

 

[par0thead151]

OK, this is really weird. Number 1, technically there is no Zero Clearance fireplace that is approved for wood burning inserts. However, that does not mean that we dont put them in as long as the insert is approved. A FEW inserts are approved for ZC fireplaces, but ZC fireplaces are not approved for inserts. Cute eh?

So, the dealer is going to remove the existing ZC fireplace, and re install a larger ZC fireplace that will fit a non approved insert. I dont think the 4100 or the 5100 are ZC approved, but i have to check. You do not have a insert, you have a ZC fireplace. There is no such thing as a "custom" ZC fireplace. They are all pre fab. Why in the world would they tear out a old one, and reinstall a larger one with new chimney, then install a insert with a liner in the chimney, when they could do the job proper and sell you a ZC fireplace that is epa approved? The epa fireplace may look like more up front, but it will be cheaper then all that other work. Makes ZERO sense.

i left a voice mail on the owners cell phone(the guy who came to look at what my options are to get a wood burning unit in my home)
maybe he tried to down play the cost of adding the larger ZC housing, so as to get me to order the unit?
i like the idea of a unit met for my zc fireplace, however even with the EPA rebate, the total cost will be $4000+
i need to keep it at at least 3000 to justify the expense, as if my math is right it will take over 6 years to pay for it self(assuming i save 50% on my gas bills after this is installed, and assuming i have a steady source of free wood as i do now, and assuming that there are no additional costs of ownership aside from the seasonal chimney sweep)
thanks again for all the advice, if i had just blindly believed what the sales guy told me, i would probably end up buying something that does not work for my home...

 

[par0thead151]

If you want to talk, i will PM you my number. This sounds very scary and very illegal.

PM inbound.
and WOW, you guys are great.
it never ceases to amaze me how helpful people are on special interest forums.

 

[MountainStoveGuy]

Im not worried about cost, ROI or any of that. Im worried about burning that nice home of yours down. One of two things are going on. You are confused on what they are selling you, or they are completely crazy. There is no way they are going to tear out the existing fireplace, re install a new one, the install a insert in the new one for $500. Thats more of a $3000 job (labor and new ZC only) So you take the 3k and add the insert wich is 3k, then the liner witch is 500-600, and the insulation wich is 200, and the labor which is an additional 600 then you get $7300 total. If it is much less then that there is something seriously wrong. This is why the new epa ZC box will come in better price wise then what they should be doing.

 

[par0thead151]

Im not worried about cost, ROI or any of that. Im worried about burning that nice home of yours down. One of two things are going on. You are confused on what they are selling you, or they are completely crazy. There is no way they are going to tear out the existing fireplace, re install a new one, the install a insert in the new one for $500. Thats more of a $3000 job (labor and new ZC only) So you take the 3k and add the insert wich is 3k, then the liner witch is 500-600, and the insulation wich is 200, and the labor which is an additional 600 then you get $7300 total. If it is much less then that there is something seriously wrong. This is why the new epa ZC box will come in better price wise then what they should be doing.

ooh i hole heatedly agree with you, the most important factor is NOT burning my home down. my great dane would not be too happy if she lost her home, nor would the Fiancee.
i will have to measure the ZC rated units you suggested. the quadrafire one looked fairly promising. i just want to keep costs down as if i ever movie, i have been told by a few Realtor i know, that a wood burning stove does not really improve sell-ability of a home like mine. the silly yuppies in my neighborhood would rather pay 300-500 a month in gas than do some work and heat their home with wood, and save some money in doing so.

 

[par0thead151]

i think i will also call quadrafire and see what they recommend as well...
need to gather more information from all available sources.

 

[MountainStoveGuy]

You will have a hard time calling them direct, they do not have a consumer line. They will direct you to there dealer. You would be better off just calling another quad dealer in your area.

 

[MountainStoveGuy]

Also, the 2700I and the 3100I are the only ZC approved insert they sell, which really makes all this moot...
edit: that might not be true anymore, looks like they have an exception for the 4100I in usa markets only.

 

[Wet1]

I'm with MSG on this one... maybe you should ask for a written BOM and details on what they are going to do. It certainly doesn't add up as it sits. I keep thinking a stove, rather than an insert, would make a lot more sense.

 

[par0thead151]

Also, the 2700I and the 3100I are the only ZC approved insert they sell, which really makes all this moot...

i suppose i would not mind a 3100i and it is rated for 2000sq ft heating, so i am only 300-600 sq ft more than what it is rated for.
another question, with guys burning inserts in larger 2000+ SQ ft homes, do you run into problems with condensation on the windows? i assume this probably also has a lot to do with the type and quality of window, but i noticed that in winters my windows get a lot of frost or water buildup on the corners of the window. mostly the bottom corners.
this is probably due to having wood windows with aluminum trim and not so much my heating situation.

 

[Wet1]

BTW, you should be able to replace a lot more than 50% of your current heating with a properly sized stove burning 24/7 in an open layout. I'd think 90%+ should be very doable.

 

[leftyscott]

i think i will also call quadrafire and see what they recommend as well...
need to gather more information from all available sources.

I recently went through exactly what's happening to you. Wanted to replace my old insert with a 5100. When the dudes came out to pull the old insert, they immediately advised me that an insert would not work. No way to safely insulate. I opted for a 7100. They tore out the old insert and 40 foot of stove pipe and redid everything. Wasn't cheap.... we also redid hearth and mantle.. Looks Great!! Don't forget about the $1500 tax credit.

 

[par0thead151]

I'm with MSG on this one... maybe you should ask for a written BOM and details on what they are going to do. It certainly doesn't add up as it sits. I keep thinking a stove, rather than an insert, would make a lot more sense.

i would love a stove, but it just does not fit the "style" of my home.
it was a tough sell for the insert as it is, at least when pitching the idea to my Fiancee.
my gas bill is usually 200-350$ in the winter on the worst 3-4 months
we keep it at 58 at night and 65 during the day.

 

[par0thead151]

BTW, you should be able to replace a lot more than 50% of your current heating with a properly sized stove burning 24/7 in an open layout. I'd think 90%+ should be very doable.

if that is the case, then i can budge my price bracket a little higher...
i would say keeping the total cost close to or a little bit over(preferably under though) $4000 would be within my comfort level then...
the energy co is going to think i m stealing gas if i cut my usage by 90%, as last year the meter broke in November and no gas was recorded from nov-april. they guesstimated my charges of course, so i still got billed for what i used last year.

 

[MountainStoveGuy]

Parrot, i dont think this is going to happen for 4k unless you pick something that will fit inside your existing ZC box. No tear out option will come in less then 6k.

 

[par0thead151]

Parrot, i dont think this is going to happen for 4k unless you pick something that will fit inside your existing ZC box. No tear out option will come in less then 6k.

yikes. well, i do not need to tear anything out per say, the only area where i am lacking size is the height and that i have plenty to spare, as the bottom of the fireplace is a facade piece of granite. the width would fit a 4100i and 5100i just fine, i just needed to adjust the depth, which would me a matter of replacing the bottom panel of the ZC box.
i will draw up a picture and give measurements of my ZC box that is in there right now. i took the floor off of the ZC box to see if i had a masonry fireplace or a prefab one.
i sure hope that the dimensions work out, as i dont think i can justify $6000 for a fireplace right now. that would take almost a decade to break even on the money invested. not even taking into account maintenance, time it takes to cut the wood, stack the wood, split the wood, haul the wood, re stack the wood, and then keep the thing fed with wood every 8-10 hours or so...
im not opposed to work, especially if it will save me money in the long run. I also very much enjoy a wood fire. however i must be able to justify the cost in adding this fireplace, otherwise i would be better off just using natural gas to heat my home, and keep the gas insert in place...
i really dislike that idea though, as i like to burn wood, heck i even like the smell of a burning fireplace.
that and my dog will love having a warm spot to in the winters to sleep by.
all i know is this, my next home WILL have a masonry fireplace and/or a wood stove.

 

[par0thead151]

I just talked to another local store , and they were saying it is illegal for anyone to remove/modify the zero clearance fireplace or modify the bricks.
he mentioned that he has a regency unit that fits in ZC fireplaces and its on sale for $2,992 installed.
however that may not even be worth my while as it only heats 600-1000 sq ft.
he also informed me that the 6-8" air gap between the floor and the bottom panel of the ZC fireplace is can not safely be reduced.
so basically im stuck with a unit that will at best supplement 30-40% of my gas bill in the winter, or spend upward of $2000 to have the size ZC box i need, put in safely.

 

[BrotherBart]

Whoa. That is a gas pre-fab fireplace that is in there now?