What's the right decision?

[heatingcostssuck]

Hi All,

I'm looking to open a discussion with folks here, to try to help me decide which way to go.

I will need to get a loan for any of this. So, I am looking at a 10 year plan to recoup costs and try to make them less than what I put out for oil now.

The current heating costs:

$3600->$4800 a year depending on how cold.
I freaked when my wife told me she raised the equal billing to $400/month.

My goals:

- Reduce my heating costs as much as possible. Whatever happens, I need to be sure that my oil consumption + loan + whatever fuel source I go to is less than $300 / month. I can't raise my bill.

- The solution either needs to be a stove inside on the main floor, or a boiler system in a shed or an OWB.
A crawl space boiler isn't likely to happen due to poor crawlspace access and it behind barely 6' in height and possible code conflicts.

- I go away a lot on weekends. I'll be honest, my wife won't help with a wood based system, she hates wood, bugs and dirt. I don't know how much of a help my wife will be with this, she's content to put out a ton on heating because it is something she doesn't need to think about, it just *is*. I can respect that, but it puts me into a spot where I'm disgusted by the bill and having to do it myself.

My thoughts:

I love the flexibility of boiler. I could put in a heat exchanger to the furnace, a heat exchanger for the hot water tank, modines in an unheated part of the house (another 300sq or so) and a modine in the crawlspace.

Then again, the low costs of a pellet stove (or even a wood stove) on the main level is attractive, however, my guess is that this is a patch, not a fix and would still force me to use oil on more than just weekends that I go away. I would be ecstatic if I could do what I'm looking at here for less than $6000, a pellet stove on a main floor would be ideal for my "current" heating needs and my wife would assist.

The house:

A pre-1900, 2000sq foot (1000 per level), poorly insulated home (it does have ceiling insulation). The walls are 2 1/2 foot
fieldstone and has lathe and plaster interior walls. Every room upstairs has slanted ceilings.

I own approximately 70 acres of mostly wooded land.

Yes, I should put insulation in, but that takes time and I suspect a lot more money than a lower-cost heating system. I'm not saying I'm going to do it, but I'm saying I would prefer to heat cheaper, than have my wife and young children disrupted right now.

Current heating system:
Oil-based forced air furnace with a 0.65 nozzle (does that matter?) which is 78% efficient based on the
numbers of the emission tests.

My floor plan:

 

[heatingcostssuck]

I should note that:

The majority of my house is warm during the winter. I don't have any really uncomfortable spots except
in the Kitchen (top left block on picture) and the bathroom which is the top-right block on the picture.

 

[TheBigIron]

Heating costs suck,

Is your crawlspace insulated? If not start with a vapor barrier in your crawl space and insulate that crawlspace and ventilate it as well. Having 70 acres of wooded land, for me it would be hard not to install something that heats with wood. Either boiler like you mentioned or wood stove..

 

[F4jock]

Pellet boiler. Start plugging up the air gaps and insulate. Forget burning wood. Your bride isn't going to want to play with a wood boiler, free fuel or not.

 

[TimfromPittsburgh]

I'm not sure a stove of any sort would prove effective since yours is not an open floor plan. An add-on wood fired furnace, if you could find one that would fit into the crawl space and meet code requirements, sitting next to your oil fired furnace and connected into the existing duct system would be very cost efficient. They do make insulating and heat shielding materials these days that might enable a safe and legal installation in your crawl space.

If you ever decide to insulate the walls, consider putting the insulation on the outside and let all that thermal mass of the stone walls work for you.

 

[maple1]

If you're away a lot, and your wife can't or won't actviely do the wood thing - sounds like you should go with pellets.

That could be either a stove or two, or a pellet boiler tied in to your furnace via heat exchanger.

You could always still cut what wood you could when you can, and sell it to cover pellet costs. One nice big pellet stove on the main level would be the cheapest & easiest install, and might cover 3/4 of your heating. You could also put in both a wood stove & pellet stove - redundancy is a very good things most times. Then you could do wood when you're home.

 

[heatingcostssuck]

Thanks for all the replies folks:


@The46Zone - The crawlspace isn't insulated in terms of any sort of insulation on the walls. I've been stuffing pink and foam wherever I see a crack, but I have been hesitant to insulate the walls themselves as the foundation is fieldstone. I don't want to disrupt the heating of the walls simply because if it starts to freeze/thaw, I might damage the walls themselves.

I need to get an expert in to tell me what they think.

@F4jock

Pellet boilers are attractive, I started reading up on the Harman's PB105 and then came across an incident where an individual had their power go out, the unit created a back burn into their hopper. That could have been a very, very bad day, as it was, the unit had some fairly noticeable damage, but Harman came through for them.


@TimfromPittsburgh

Yeah, the floor plan is working against me. This is why I think I need to hook into the Forced Air I currently have. After you mentioned "add-on", I started to google them and that would be perfect if it wasn't for the access problems to the cellar (which could be fixed by modifying the stairs) and then there is the question of code.


The Timber Ridge (Englander) Add-On wood furnace reviews nicely, sounds awesome, is affordable. It could be worth getting someone out to give me the passing/not passing on code and live through having me the workhorse on the wood.

(broken link removed to http://www.heatredefined.com/timberridge/stove/timber-ridge-3000-sq.-ft.-add-on-wood-furnace)

I also believe the insulation should likely go on the outside, it will allow the rock to hold that heat in better, but I will need some experts to work with me on that.

@maple1

Yeah, Pellets do have some major advantages and the whole fill the hopper and walk away is good. I do sort of feel somewhat mixed at Pellets, simply because it is a fuel you have to pay for, but it would still cut my bills way down.

 

[jebatty]

I understand the burden of your heating costs. There is no free lunch and no goose that lays a golden egg. There is real economy to heat with wood with your own wood source, labor, inconvenience, and some dust and dirt. Our 3000 sq ft (1500 main level and 1500 walkout basement), heated with a wood stove in the living room, takes only about $200/yr for a little supplemental electric heat, and our winter temps often get into the -20 to -30F range. Pick your priorities and buck up for the trade-offs.

 

[F4jock]

Yeah, Pellets do have some major advantages and the whole fill the hopper and walk away is good. I do sort of feel somewhat mixed at Pellets, simply because it is a fuel you have to pay for, but it would still cut my bills way down.

Just Remember the wife. . . .

 

[stee6043]

You mentioned you thought insulating might be more money than a low cost heating system - not a chance. Hire a contractor to spend a day at your house insulating the attic and crawlspace and maybe take a look at your windows. Spend $1,000 maybe? That would be money well spent.

I would also vote for a pellet boiler given your situation. You can get hoppers that hold several days worth of pellets that auto-feed.

Spend $20,000 on the system. Sub $250 a month payment. Buy pellets by the ton, make sure you use zero oil and end up maybe just over $300?

For whatever it's worth I'd have a real hard time paying for fuel living on 70 acre. But hey, good luck!

 

[Clarkbug]

I hear you on costs. My first year the thermostat was at 58 and that was still painful to my wallet.

But you really should look into insulation and airsealing first. You will use less oil now, and you will be able to reduce the size of a new heating device based on a lower load.

Plus there is usually some assistance via a tax credit or local utility for insulation.

 

[heatingcostssuck]

You mentioned you thought insulating might be more money than a low cost heating system - not a chance. Hire a contractor to spend a day at your house insulating the attic and crawlspace and maybe take a look at your windows. Spend $1,000 maybe? That would be money well spent.

Sorry, I should clarify.

I've put new windows in about 10 years ago. Replacing the single-pane cracked windows we had. This cost $10,000

I've put insulation into the ceiling, a couple years back. Before that, there absolutely zero. This cost $1700

I've ran the house interior with caulking anywhere and everywhere the I could. I still need to do more. This was my time and materials.

What's left is the all the cracks and wholes in the crawlspace, which I have been stuffing with foam + insulation.

Really, all that is left is the walls of the house (behind my lathe and plaster) and the crawlspace.

This is where I think the cost will be. Also, the idea of gutting each room one by one will add to the cost:

1. Lathe and Plaster is messy.
2. If I open those walls, if I find knob and tube, I must replace it by code.
3. I am a geek. There would be future-proofing tubes,

I would want to hire a contractor who is familiar with fieldstone homes as from what I have read, unlike more modern homes where the goal of basements is to prevent water from coming in, older fieldstone homes may not work like that. If I don't want to stop the heat from
working on the walls to save some money, if it damages the foundation. The house has been here almost 130 years, I don't want to dramatically change the way the foundation has worked.

 

[dleeallen]

What about a multi step plan? Find a fairly inexpensive pellet wood stove for the main floor to buy you a few years supplementing the current oil. Continue to work on air leaks with spray foam and save/research either a pellet or wood boiler - inside or in a shed.

I have somewhat similar situation and have a wood stove to supplement the oil boiler. Main difference is my wife is willing to help split the wood and feed the stove. I buy logs but would love to have wooded acreage! Harvesting your own trees and processing is expensive - time and equipment. We are switching to buying split wood delivered for the next few years to save the time for the kids. Long term desire is to buy a garn and put in a shed. We burn 6+ cord now and about a tank of oil for heat and hot water.

 

[heatingcostssuck]

But you really should look into insulation and airsealing first. You will use less oil now, and you will be able to reduce the size of a new heating device based on a lower load.

Plus there is usually some assistance via a tax credit or local utility for insulation.

There was, but I've been working on the airsealing + insulation for a bit and it has helped in terms of comfort.

Update: I believe these Government of Canada/Ontario credits have been stopped for the last couple of years.

 

[heatingcostssuck]

What about a multi stay plan? Find a fairly inexpensive pellet wood stove for the main floor to buy you a few years supplementing the current oil. Continue to work on air leaks with spray foam and save/research either a pellet or wood boiler - inside or in a shed.

I have somewhat similar situation and have a wood stove to supplement the oil boiler. Main difference is my wife is willing to help split the wood and feed the stove. I buy logs but would love to have wooded acreage! Harvesting your own trees and processing is expensive - time and equipment. We are switching to buying split wood delivered for the next few years to save the time for the kids. Long term desire is to buy a garn and put in a shed. We burn 6+ cord now and about a tank of oil for heat and hot water.

I need to get an installer out here to give me an idea of where I could put a pellet stove and how much it could save us (realistically), if we were to put one in. But like you say, I consider pellet stoves to be more of a stop gap, unless of course, it isn't and turns out to be the best course of action.

Is your oil boiler hooked into a forced air?
I had absolutely no idea these existed:
(broken link removed to http://www.heatredefined.com/timberridge/stove/timber-ridge-3000-sq.-ft.-add-on-wood-furnace)

I've looked the Garn's just a few hours ago (online). They look indestructible

 

[heatingcostssuck]

Just Remer the wife. . . .

I could never forget my wife She won't let me. Not that I would ever try

 

[dleeallen]

We are water baseboards. Also have to say I like the wood stove because it works in power outages unlike a pellet. Just had 4 days no power. At least the house was warm! 99% of the time pellets would be way easier though. So for us the stove is both stop gap and emergency heat which is a nice side benefit.

I like the garn for its simplicity and integrated water storage. Not cheap but no system is.

A buddy has a tractor supply wood furnace and likes it. Doesn't cover your weekend away scenario though.

 

[heatingcostssuck]

We are water baseboards. Also have to say I like the wood stove because it works in power outages unlike a pellet. Just had 4 days no power. At least the house was warm! 99% of the time pellets would be way easier though. So for us the stove is both stop gap and emergency heat which is a nice side benefit.

I like the garn for its simplicity and integrated water storage. Not cheap but no system is.

A buddy has a tractor supply wood furnace and likes it. Doesn't cover your weekend away scenario though.

I'm considering getting an Electrician to wire-up my forced air furnace to have the ability to be generator ran if necessary, I've had many power outages in my years here. Having been through the Ice Storm of '98 (not in this home), the Blackout of '03 and various other day or two long power outages, I think it would make sense, just hasn't been a high priority. If I were to get a pellet stove, I would make it a priority.

If I go with an outdoor solution, which is far more pricey, something with a large firebox/hopper would be on my list.

 

[dleeallen]

Makes sense. We are going to wire up for gen too. Then pick up a generator when find a good deal. Not critical but would be nice to have. If go outside boiler consider a bunch of water storage.

 

[Clarkbug]

There was, but I've been working on the airsealing + insulation for a bit and it has helped in terms of comfort.

Update: I believe these Government of Canada/Ontario credits have been stopped for the last couple of years.

What about insulating the ceiling of the crawlspace? That moves your envelope up, and you dont have to mess with the foundation. I have one of those also, so I understand your concern.

Are your walls insulated at all? You could have dense packed cellulose put in, assuming you dont have knob and tube wiring... That doesnt require a tearout of the walls. Makes a big difference in comfort.

 

[F4jock]

Sorry, I should clarify.

I've put new windows in about 10 years ago. Replacing the single-pane cracked windows we had. This cost $10,000

I've put insulation into the ceiling, a couple years back. Before that, there absolutely zero. This cost $1700

I've ran the house interior with caulking anywhere and everywhere the I could. I still need to do more. This was my time and materials.

What's left is the all the cracks and wholes in the crawlspace, which I have been stuffing with foam + insulation.

Really, all that is left is the walls of the house (behind my lathe and plaster) and the crawlspace.

This is where I think the cost will be. Also, the idea of gutting each room one by one will add to the cost:

1. Lathe and Plaster is messy.
2. If I open those walls, if I find knob and tube, I must replace it by code.
3. I am a geek. There would be future-proofing tubes,

I would want to hire a contractor who is familiar with fieldstone homes as from what I have read, unlike more modern homes where the goal of basements is to prevent water from coming in, older fieldstone homes may not work like that. If I don't want to stop the heat from
working on the walls to save some money, if it damages the foundation. The house has been here almost 130 years, I don't want to dramatically change the way the foundation has worked.

Got a suggestion. Guy I knew had a big, old baloon construction house. He insulated by building walls within the walls.

 

[heatingcostssuck]

What about insulating the ceiling of the crawlspace? That moves your envelope up, and you dont have to mess with the foundation. I have one of those also, so I understand your concern.

Are your walls insulated at all? You could have dense packed cellulose put in, assuming you dont have knob and tube wiring... That doesnt require a tearout of the walls. Makes a big difference in comfort.

I've considered insulating between the joists. If I did that, i would really need to ensure there was some dehumidifier and heat source downstairs.

There isn't any insulation in the walls. Blowing in cellulose is problematic on old stone (or any with moisture) homes since it would create moisture/rot problems. According to this document,
it could even cause lathe and plaster problems.

(broken link removed to http://epa.gov/region5/sustainable/pdf/Energy-advice-for-owners-of-older-homes.pdf)

I'm fairly certain if I open up those walls, there will be knob and tube

 

[leon]

Hi All,

I'm looking to open a discussion with folks here, to try to help me decide which way to go.

I will need to get a loan for any of this. So, I am looking at a 10 year plan to recoup costs and try to make them less than what I put out for oil now.

The current heating costs:

$3600->$4800 a year depending on how cold.
I freaked when my wife told me she raised the equal billing to $400/month.

My goals:

- Reduce my heating costs as much as possible. Whatever happens, I need to be sure that my oil consumption + loan + whatever fuel source I go to is less than $300 / month. I can't raise my bill.

- The solution either needs to be a stove inside on the main floor, or a boiler system in a shed or an OWB.
A crawl space boiler isn't likely to happen due to poor crawlspace access and it behind barely 6' in height and possible code conflicts.

- I go away a lot on weekends. I'll be honest, my wife won't help with a wood based system, she hates wood, bugs and dirt. I don't know how much of a help my wife will be with this, she's content to put out a ton on heating because it is something she doesn't need to think about, it just *is*. I can respect that, but it puts me into a spot where I'm disgusted by the bill and having to do it myself.

My thoughts:

I love the flexibility of boiler. I could put in a heat exchanger to the furnace, a heat exchanger for the hot water tank, modines in an unheated part of the house (another 300sq or so) and a modine in the crawlspace.

Then again, the low costs of a pellet stove (or even a wood stove) on the main level is attractive, however, my guess is that this is a patch, not a fix and would still force me to use oil on more than just weekends that I go away. I would be ecstatic if I could do what I'm looking at here for less than $6000, a pellet stove on a main floor would be ideal for my "current" heating needs and my wife would assist.

The house:

A pre-1900, 2000sq foot (1000 per level), poorly insulated home (it does have ceiling insulation). The walls are 2 1/2 foot
fieldstone and has lathe and plaster interior walls. Every room upstairs has slanted ceilings.

I own approximately 70 acres of mostly wooded land.

Yes, I should put insulation in, but that takes time and I suspect a lot more money than a lower-cost heating system. I'm not saying I'm going to do it, but I'm saying I would prefer to heat cheaper, than have my wife and young children disrupted right now.

Current heating system:
Oil-based forced air furnace with a 0.65 nozzle (does that matter?) which is 78% efficient based on the
numbers of the emission tests.

My floor plan:

===============================================================================================================================



In your situation with a forced air heating system and no time
to do anything etc., one option which solves the issue completely and can
provide hot water is a coal stoker boiler tied into your existing hot air furnace
with a water to air heat exchanger in the plenum.

.
=======================================================================
The Keystoker A-80 hot air furnace has a Bonnett output BTU of 125,000 BTU per hour
and the coal furnace would burn 9.7 pounds of anthracite coal per hour.
========================================================================
The Keystoker KAA-4-1 boiler has a gross output of 120,000 BTU per hour.
a heat exchanger can be placed in your furnace plenum. The boiler can provide you with
all your hot water needs as well using a temperature balancing valve tied into your hot water line
===========================================================================

Each 200 pound hopper load of coal would last almost 21 hours when burning rice coal
continuously - (not including the idle time burning-furnace blower shut down time)
to maintain the fire on the stoker fire bed.

===========================================================================

So using MSU's heating value of common fuels

Kerosene has a BTU value of 135,000 BTU's per gallon

Anthracite coal has a heating value of 26,000,000 BTU per ton.

SO using the above

A 275 gallon tank of kerosene of which perhaps a fifth is unusable due to
bacteria and dirt in the tank-one US barrel (55 gallons) is left to be unused which is typical.
that leaves you with 220 gallons of kerosene times 135,000 BTU per gallon gives you

29,700,000 BTU available minus the efficiency loss of 22 percent

22 percent times 29,700,000 equals 6,534,000 BTU loss in burning efficiency losing
48.4 gallons of kerosene in each usable tank of 275 gallons of kerosene.


So 225 gallons of number one kerosene at 135,000 BTU per gallon gives you 30,375,000
BTU minus 6,534,000 leaving you with a net 23,841,000 BTU of usable heating value.

SO if for example your furnace provides 100,000 BTU of heating value it will provide you with 238.5 hours of fuel
with on and off cycling when operating at 78 percent efficiency per usable tank of 225 gallons of kerosene.
===============================================================================


NOW 225 gallons of kerosene has 30,375,000 BTU


2,000 pounds of coal @13,000 BTU per pound is 26,000.000 million BTU

BUT using my cost of coal picked up at my coal dealer which is 235 dollars per ton(I own a two ton dump trailer)

My cost for coal per pound before the cost of gasoline used being one gallon+- is 11.8 cents per pound

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The payback would be immediate for a coal furnace as the cost for kerosene would be zero as you are using coal and you can save the money to pay for the furnace and installation in three years or less.

You can also wire the furnaces so you have the ability to use a generator simply by have a pair of high amperage outlets attached to the furnaces to just plug in a pair of ewxtension cords from the outside generator

===============================================================================================================================

 

[heatingcostssuck]

Got a suggestion. Guy I knew had a big, old baloon construction house. He insulated by building walls within the walls.

You mean he took and shrunk the room size by putting up false walls on the inside of the room?

I've considered it, but there is a lot of fine trim in this old house, I'm not sure I would want to lose it. Additionally, at that point, I would have already bought the materials to rip the
walls out and replace, except for any wiring. Which, I would have to replace anyways if I were to build false walls.

It's a good idea, it's very common, I just think if I were to go to the trouble of buying enough material to rebuild the walls, I'd rip the walls out. That's my plan anyways, one at a time... but first I need to know the correct way to insulate an old field stone home. I need to get an insulation expert in and have him work one room with me

I actually called a spray foam installer, described my house to him and he told me not to spray foam due to costs, I should use roxul.

 

[F4jock]

You mean he took and shrunk the room size by putting up false walls on the inside of the room?

I've considered it, but there is a lot of fine trim in this old house, I'm not sure I would want to lose it. Additionally, at that point, I would have already bought the materials to rip the
walls out and replace, except for any wiring. Which, I would have to replace anyways if I were to build false walls.

It's a good idea, it's very common, I just think if I were to go to the trouble of buying enough material to rebuild the walls, I'd rip the walls out. That's my plan anyways, one at a time... but first I need to know the correct way to insulate an old field stone home. I need to get an insulation expert in and have him work one room with me

I actually called a spray foam installer, described my house to him and he told me not to spray foam due to costs, I should use roxul.

Just the outside walls. Removed and replaced the trim, boxed the windows. Came out great!