Which cookstove for well insulated Skid house?

[Idaho homesteader]

Hi everyone,

New member here with a few questions.

I was hoping to get some input on an ideal cookstove for my full time, off grid skid house. I'm looking for a stove that will provide heating, water heating and winter cooking- I have the house set up in Northern Idaho (winter temps are fairly mild and seldom below 20F). The house is 14'x56', built for North Dakota, with 2x6 stud walls and spay foam insulation. It is extremely well insulated and virtually airtight. I can pipe in fresh air by creating a hole under where the stove will go. After a lot of research I am drawn to the Kitchen Queen 380- I like all of it's features and it seems to be a well regarded stove. My main question is will it overheat my house? We like a sleeping temp of around 55F and a daytime temp of around 65F. (In the summer we will cook in an outside kitchen and heat water via solar). So can I run this stove efficiantly at a cooler setting or is it going to be roasting me out? It will go in the kitchen (in the middle of the house) and have to convect heat to the bedrooms at each end of the house. I do not have any inspections, insurance, etc. issues to be concerned with. I do, however, want to achieve the safest and most efficiant set-up I can get.
Thanks for helping out a newbie- I look forward to hearing your guys opinions.
Idaho Homesteader

 

[begreen]

Welcome. I don't think I would use a kitchen cook stove to exclusively heat the house. Burn times are on the short side. Running it at a constantly cooler setting could also turn into a creosote mess. If you have a good source of backup heat then it may work out.

 

[Highbeam]

Your skid house sounds an awful lot like a single wide mobile home. At least dimensionally but highly insulated. Heating and cooking need to be separated. Your home is not built to waste the extra heat that would be generated by a regular wood fired cooking.

 

[Idaho homesteader]

Thanks for the replys guys. Any ideas on how to make my idea work on having a cookstove that can heat as well? Perhaps some other brand of high quality, efficiant, low output wood cookstove that also makes hot water? This past spring we were able to keep the house fairly comfortable (in the low 50's) just using a couple Aladdin lamps for heat (even when the temps got into the 20's outside).

In regards to the cookstove overheating the house. I thought that we would just cook on it during the times when we also needed to heat the house. During times when we did not need to heat the house I planned on cooking outide or just using a little butane or kerosene burner inside to cook with. My other plan on dealing with excess heat would be to open the windows when needed.

Thanks

 

[begreen]

Maybe checkout the Jotul 602CB or the Napoleon 1150P? Still, if a couple Aladdin lamps keeps the place warm while it's 20 outside then I am concerned that most any wood stove will drive you out of the place. You could always leave some windows open, but that might get drafty. You also will want to supply outside air with a place that tight. You probably want some fresh air exchange anyway. Aladdin lamps put CO into the air.

 

[Highbeam]

So your energy supply is kerosene and wood? No electric, no propane? When you need such a small amount of heat I would be really tempted to utilize a little furnace such as a LPG RV furnace or wall furnace (kero, oil, or gas). I think Rinnai makes oil and propane heaters such as this.

To be silent and not need any power you could use a freestanding LPG stove. Cook on it when it's running but otherwise use the LPG in an oven/range.

Take a look at the marine market. They have very small oil/kero stoves for heating and cooking.

 

[begreen]

Off grid in a tight house I would be looking at propane for cooking and refrigeration.

 

[Idaho homesteader]

Thanks for the incite everyone. I really wanted to try and make wood work, since we have so much of it for free and I like the idea of a wood buring stove. I'll look closer into propane or kerosene options- I know that those would work great for cooking, but I've never used them for heat before.

 

[KB007]

Just how much cooking do you want to do? There are a few woodstoves that have provision for using the stove top for cooking and just about any steel stove can be used that way. Pots, pans, kettle, dutch oven, they all work on a woodstove if the design is right. Is it perfect, with adjustable burners and controls - no - but if you really wanted that, you'd be living in cleveland instead.

As begreen said - something like the Nap 1150P might be the ticket. While I think the idea of a wood fired cookstove would be great, it would never be my main source of heat.

 

[Grisu]

You could also look into marine stoves but for their size they are pretty expensive and burn times will be short. Here are some examples: http://www.livinlightly.com/off-grid-heat-small-wood-stoves/

 

[Highbeam]

You could also look into marine stoves but for their size they are pretty expensive and burn times will be short. Here are some examples: http://www.livinlightly.com/off-grid-heat-small-wood-stoves/

In that super insulated house, short burn times are not a problem. That's why it is tough to heat a small space with wood. The clean burning stoves burn hot which will overheat the small/well insulated house quickly. You will then either suffer the high temps or open a window. Leads to a whole lot of hot/cold cycles and starting lots of little fires.

This is why a propane heater, even a propane stove can be great because you can turn them down to a very low output and even turn them off thermostatically all without electricity.

 

[SteveKG]

We've been using cookstoves since 1974. [see avatar] I don't see the "usual" cookstove working in this scenario. Ours heats up and stays hot for hours. They are built to store a lot of heat in their mass, which is usually iron, though sometimes steel plate, so the oven will heat gently and evenly. They then give off this heat for a very long time. I do all our baking in the oven in mine except the hottest part of the summer, when I use our Weber outdoor gas grill with a baking stone on the grill. [By the way, this works great, bread and pizza and anything baked and, of course, does not heat up the indoors.]

As to burn time, the newer models do have large fireboxes. Mine is probably as large as that in my Woodstock Keystone. I haven't measured to see. The older cookstoves had relatively tiny fireboxes and required constant attention. Ours can be loaded up and forgotten, as far as the firebox is concerned.

However, in your space, I think you'd be very, very hot indoors with a cookstove going.

By the way, we also have a "countertop" stove with four burners that I have plumbed for propane. A friend had a fire in his mobile home and gave me his kitchen range. I cut off the top and installed it in our kitchen counter when building this house. So it is a full-sized four-burner deal and works great. It takes some careful removal, plugging, capping,and re-routing of this or that gas line, but the price was right. I think I had about $25 in my project when it was done.

 

[Idaho homesteader]

It really seems like the consensus favors another approach than relying exlusively on wood for heating and cooking. I'm going to have to take some time and really research alot of these options that you guys pointed out (I have a couple months before I need to install something).

I definitely like the idea of a dedicated propane burner to cook on. We are using one of those cheapo butane burners right now and other than the cost of the expensive butane cylinders it really works great. I imagine that a propane stove with a small tank would be more economical.

I have some Japanese Kero-Sun heaters, but I've never used them yet- I really don't know much about them and am hesitant to burn one in the house until I research them some more to see how safe they are.

I was refered to a device called a Condar ASV- it's a dedicated vent that I can install in the house and admit fresh air as needed by burning a wood stove. I'll probably install one of those.

 

[homebrewz]

You could get a 20" wide kitchen stove set up for propane. A couple of smaller propane tanks that could be swapped out when needed might be all you require. Folks use them in places where it's too hard to get in with a delivery truck. Even a 20 pound gas grill tank goes for several months with occasional use. If you do a lot of baking, an outdoor bread oven would be a fun project and provide a place just to have the occasional outdoor fire.

 

[peakbagger]

Look up a Jotul 404 cookstove. Its about as small a functional cookstove with an oven out there. They are hard to find as they were only imported to the US in 1999 due to the millennium craziness. The usually so go for $1000 although there was one on Ebay recently for $1,500. They are popular in New England with interior designers for dressing up period homes so a lot of them get shined up and set in place as "window dressing" never to be used again. Survivalists also tend to look for them. I took me several years to find one and haven't yet hooked it up. The firebox is puny as its designed to be fed small chunks as needed. The early Jotul's had a tough time in the US, they are designed to be kept running at a constant burn and fed frequently, Americans like to load them up full, get them burning and then slam the air valve shut so they become a smoke dragon or the air shutter gets left open and the stove overfires.

Of course a 404 is only going to put out 15 to 20K btus which isn't much in cold weather. Unless the place is well insulated you may need a much larger stove for winter time (depends on your climate). I have known a few folks with wood cookstoves and they always have a primary heating source other than the cookstove and most end up buying a propane stove as the cookstove drives them out of the house in summer and shoulder seasons.

 

[Oldman47]

I definitely like the idea of a dedicated propane burner to cook on. We are using one of those cheapo butane burners right now and other than the cost of the expensive butane cylinders it really works great. I imagine that a propane stove with a small tank would be more economical.

I have some Japanese Kero-Sun heaters, but I've never used them yet- I really don't know much about them and am hesitant to burn one in the house until I research them some more to see how safe they are.

The trouble with a Kero-sun or similar heater is that it requires you to leave a window open to vent off the combustion gasses. Kerosene really smells bad when you are burning it, I know that from experience. 50 years ago. Propane can be expensive but works well as a cook-stove fuel. Bulk propane prices are far better than the small cylinders at Walmart or most big box stores. Don't be discouraged by comments about how a wood stove may be too big for your space. Small wood stoves are available and can be run at low outputs to heat a small place. If you like wood heat, consider a small stove for heat and use propane for cooking. A combination stove for your needs is just a poor fit.

 

[begreen]

If they are able to heat with a pair of Aladdin lamps then their heating needs are miniscule. A Kerosun would be overkill. I would put in a small vented propane stove for basic heat and if wood cooking is desired, install a small marine stove like the Sardine.
http://www.marinestove.com/sardineinfo.htm

 

[Idaho homesteader]

This is all really great info everyone- I really appreciate hearing others experiences. The discussion has motivated me to pursue a multiple source of heat and cooking as recomended. I'm currently looking at some propane stoves that don't require electricity -I'll just run it off a 20 gallon tank for starters and I can always get a bigger tank as needed.

I'm going to play with my Kero-sun's as well and see how they work- I figure that might give me a better idea of exactly how many btu's I really need to be comfortable. I've never had a problem with kerosene fumes from my Aladdin or Kosmos type lamps- maybe the fumes are there but don't bother me that much?

I have a Kero-Sun Moonshiner that put's out 8,600 Btus and a Radian 10 which, I think is around 10,000. I also have bigger ones in the 20,000s btu range, but thats probably overkill. Venting should not be a problem since there are already some dedicated openings to the outside for running cables plus an unuseds dryer vent. I'll also put in carbon monoxide detecters in each room for safety.

I think I could play with that setup for a while and see how it works out. I can then always add a wood burning stove at any point to supplement things.

Regarding a cast iron stove like the Jotul 404 recomended by Peakbagger, How air-tite is something like that versus a tighter, more modern stove made of welded plate? Whatever wood burner I put in I would like to be as air-tite as possible so as to emit a minimum amount of smoke into the house (hence my initial interest in the Kitchen Queen 380).

 

[begreen]

The Jotul 404 is pretty rare, but a cute little stove. It won't be air-tight and doesn't need to be. You keep smoke out of the house by having good draft, burning dry wood and operating the stove correctly.

 

[Highbeam]

Any "leaks" in the stove should be sucking air and not blowing smoke.

Be sure that the propane stove you get is actually vented with some sort of chimney. Burning lpg or oil will dump lots of moisture into your home along with the poisonous byproducts of combustion if those devices aren't set up to exhaust outside.

 

[Grisu]

Given how little heat loss your home has I would look for a direct vent unit that also uses outside combustion air. Otherwise, I would be worried about oxygen depletion when running a burner for a long time using inside air. Not that I think you will suffocate but low oxygen/high CO2 levels can make for an unpleasant living environment. Did you ever have an energy assessment done? You may need an air handler to make sure the air is exchanged regularly and moisture levels are in a range that does not encourage mold growth.

 

[Idaho homesteader]

I've been looking at a Premier prestige propane oven- the tech guy told me that a vent is not required since its just a stove (doesn't get run enough to cause a problem). I also just started looking into vented propane heaters. There seem to be several makers out there that produce vented units requiring no electricity. I thought that if I'm going to have a propane stove it might make sense to use the same source of propane to run a heater.

 

[begreen]

You can probably find one like this used and cheap at Thrift store or on craigslist. Look out for used apt. gas stoves. If you get one, open a window a bit when baking. If you have a Sears scratch and dent store nearby that's worth checking too.

 

[Idaho homesteader]

Thanks for the pointers begreen. I was just checking Craigslist. Besides being cheap, the older gas stoves seem to not be reliant on electricity to run- I'll keep my eyes open for one, and fall back on a new Premier stove if need be.

The baking advice makes sense. When I spoke with the tech at Premier stoves I asked him about baking in a small, well insulated house. He said that officially gas stoves do not need to be vented in the US, but if I did something like heavy baking all day long in an air-tite house to use common sense and let fresh air in.

 

[Idaho homesteader]

Hi Guys,
So here it is 4 months later and I wanted to give a follow up. It's been an interesting past month. At one point we had a week of night time lows of 0F. During that time I was heating our place with one, or sometimes two Kerosun heaters of about 10,000 btu's each. These, along with an unvented propane stove we installed and a couple of Kosmos kerosene lamps kept us comfortable.
I learned a lot from the experience- Kerosene heaters are great for short durations of heating (a few hours), but are not a good long term plan for our tight house. There were virtually no fumes (using K1 Sunnyside), but they put off a ton of moisture- the doors and windows were always bathed in condensation. We kept three windows opened 1/2" each and were able to keep the CO meters under 30PPM, but burning all that unvented kero and propane in the house would use up our oxygen in about 4 hours (the lamps would start to die out) and then we'd have to open the windows a few more inches (letting in a cold draft).
So last week I installed a vented propane heater- it works great. Warm, dry and can be left running at night or when where not there (something I never did with the kerosun units.
After doing the math I've calculated (from our propane heater usage and rating) that we need to add about 8,000 btu's of heat per hour, every hour to the house in order to keep it between 55F and 60F inside, when outside temps range from 10F up to 35F.
The only disadvantage to using the propane heater is that it's expensive to run - I've calculated an average cost of $180 per month with propane at $2.50 a gallon. This brings me back to my wood stove idea. I have dismissed the idea of using a wood stove for cooking - our propane stove works so well and uses so little fuel that cooking on wood is not that important anymore. I would still, however, like a wood heater. As a lot of you pointed out most wood heaters will cook us out. So if I need 8,000 btu's/hour of heat, how does this translate into wood heater ratings? Should I try and find a unit that is rated at 8,000 btu's? I'll be burning larch, tamarac, and other soft pines. It doesn't seem like anyone makes a unit for my needs that is small enough. Ideally I'd like to find one that has a direct air inlet to the outside. After using up the oxygen in the house on several occasions I am a little paranoid now of running out of air again.
I've looked at some of the marine stoves as mentioned, but they don't seem to offer much bang for the buck. It seems like most of the cost is for the nautical motif cast into the heater and the enamal finishes. That might end up being my only option, but for now I want to try to keep looking for the best unit for my needs.

Thanks Guys