who uses chimney insulation mix/pour such as EverGuard ?

[trx680]

Considering using the mix and pour insulation versus the wrap insulation.
Reason is because of the tight fit I'll have with the wrap.
I needed a rectangular liner equivalent to the area of a 8" round.

I have a 5.5" x 9.43" liner and an opening in the chimney of 6" x 9.75". Its lined with the terracotta, so if I try to wrap it when I install the liner the mortar thats oozed out from the terracotta is going to snag the wrap insulation and tear it.

So I have approximately a half inch of space to pour the mix insulation.

Does this sound like a plan?

I have a rancher so the liner isnt all that long.

 

[bholler]

We use it in some situation but you do not have enough room to use it properly you need 1" of insulation all the way around that liner to meet the insulation requirements. Do you know if you have proper clearances to combustibles from the outside of the chimney?

 

[trx680]

We use it in some situation but you do not have enough room to use it properly you need 1" of insulation all the way around that liner to meet the insulation requirements. Do you know if you have proper clearances to combustibles from the outside of the chimney?

No I'm not sure about proper clearances to combustibles from the outside. Please explain more about that. Thanks

 

[bholler]

No I'm not sure about proper clearances to combustibles from the outside. Please explain more about that. Thanks

To meet code your chimney needs to have clearance to combustibles from the outside of the masonry to anything combustible. For an exterior chimney it needs to be 1" for interior it needs to be 2". Most chimney do not have this and it is generally very hard to confirm if it does. For that reason we will not install any liner for a wood stove without insulation.

 

[trx680]

To meet code your chimney needs to have clearance to combustibles from the outside of the masonry to anything combustible. For an exterior chimney it needs to be 1" for interior it needs to be 2". Most chimney do not have this and it is generally very hard to confirm if it does. For that reason we will not install any liner for a wood stove without insulation.

hmmm....still not sure what you mean. What kind of combustibles you referring to? Trees? The house itself?
you wrote: For an exterior chimney it needs to be 1" for interior it needs to be 2" ....... the insulation needs to be 1" or 2" ?

My fireplace chimney is in the middle of the house, not an exterior wall. Its brick and lined with rectangular clay/terra cotta liner. I'll take a picture tomorrow, maybe you can make some sense of what I'm working with.

 

[xman23]

Bholler, I trying to understand. Isn't the original terracotta chimney a fine wood stove chimney? And adding a liner to resize it to the wood stove requirement now makes it even safer? And the insulation is just used to help keep the liner warmer? Or don't I understand what the OP is doing?

 

[bholler]

My fireplace chimney is in the middle of the house, not an exterior wall. Its brick and lined with rectangular clay/terra cotta liner. I'll take a picture tomorrow, maybe you can make some sense of what I'm working with.

So you have an interior chimney that means that from the outside of the masonry structure you need 2" of clearance from that masonry to any combustible material. If you do not have that you need the liner to be insulated properly and there is no way for you to do that with pour in insulation in your chimney.

Here is a link to a copy of the code
http://www.rumford.com/code/clearances.html

And here is the full code book
(broken link removed to http://codes.iccsafe.org/app/book/content/2015-I-Codes/2015%20IRC%20HTML/Chapter%2010.html)
You would be looking at code R1003.18 in this new book

 

[trx680]

Bholler, I trying to understand. Isn't the original terracotta chimney a fine wood stove chimney? And adding a liner to resize it to the wood stove requirement now makes it even safer? And the insulation is just used to help keep the liner warmer? Or don't I understand what the OP is doing?

I'm installing a woodstove insert in the fireplace. It has a 8" flue. I have a custom rectangular liner for the chimney. Its a tight fit. Using wrap insulation will make it very tight and might snag the rough mortar from the tera cotta. So I was considering pouring insulation around it.
I'd like to insulate it, but I may not if its going to be a huge hassle.

 

[trx680]

So you have an interior chimney that means that from the outside of the masonry structure you need 2" of clearance from that masonry to any combustible material. If you do not have that you need the liner to be insulated properly and there is no way for you to do that with pour in insulation in your chimney.

Here is a link to a copy of the code
http://www.rumford.com/code/clearances.html

And here is the full code book
(broken link removed to http://codes.iccsafe.org/app/book/content/2015-I-Codes/2015%20IRC%20HTML/Chapter%2010.html)
You would be looking at code R1003.18 in this new book

Well I'd imagine that the outside of the brick, that surrounds the terra cotta, has the ceiling and roof wood structure butted up to it.

 

[bholler]

I'm installing a woodstove insert in the fireplace. It has a 8" flue. I have a custom rectangular liner for the chimney. Its a tight fit. Using wrap insulation will make it very tight and might snag the rough mortar from the tera cotta. So I was considering pouring insulation around it.
I'd like to insulate it, but I may not if its going to be a huge hassle.

Well if you dont have the required clearances you could have a safety issue if you dont insulate it. And you will not meet code requirements. If I was doing the install Iwould simply remove the old clay liners so you would have room for insulation.

 

[bholler]

Well I'd imagine that the outside of the brick, that surrounds the terra cotta, has the ceiling and roof wood structure butted up to it.

yes it usually does and that is why we insulate all of them

 

[trx680]

this house is 60 years old. I'm not sure how often the previous owners used the fireplace but for over 60 years there wasnt any issues...the house is still here anyway. I know I'm installing a woodstove, not using it as a fireplace.

 

[bholler]

this house is 60 years old. I'm not sure how often the previous owners used the fireplace but for over 60 years there wasnt any issues...the house is still here anyway. I know I'm installing a woodstove, not using it as a fireplace.

Just because nothing ever happened before does not mean it wont now. No house ever burns down till it does. And yes it may be fine with out proper insulation but are you willing to bet your families lives on the fact that it will probably be fine? I am not willing to bet on the lives of my customers. It is up to you Iam just giving you the info you need to make the decision for yourself.

 

[trx680]

here are the pictures of the chimney
I didnt measure it but I'd say that 9-10" of brick between the clay liner and the outer perimeter of the chimney.
So if I use an un-insulated 316ti liner, or one with a small amount of pour insulation, theres still a real danger of heat traveling all the way through 9-10" of brick to the wood frame?

 

[BigFir]

In the event of a chimney fire.....yes!

 

[trx680]

In the event of a chimney fire.....yes!

whats the chances of the chimney catching fire with a liner in it?

 

[BigFir]

whats the chances of the chimney catching fire with a liner in it?

Less due to the fact you will have better draft and warmer gasses preventing creosote build up.

 

[mellow]

If your needing an 8" liner I am guessing this is an old non-epa insert or a kuma sequoia?

 

[trx680]

If your needing an 8" liner I am guessing this is an old non-epa insert or a kuma sequoia?

its a Englander 24jc catalytic w/ 8" flue

 

[mellow]

I would recommend busting out the tiles, but then if you had done that in the first place you wouldn't have needed the custom liner so you have kinda backed yourself up against a wall. I don't think the thermix is going to do squat, trying to get it into a half inch hole all the way around is going to be a major PIA unless you have a wand and way to blow it in.

 

[bholler]

its a Englander 24jc catalytic w/ 8" flue

Do you realize that in the manual it says with a full liner 6" is acceptable?

https://www.manualslib.com/manual/47652/England-S-Stove-Works-24-Jc.html?page=2#manual
page 2 in the flue size needed section

 

[bholler]

I would recommend busting out the tiles, but then if you had done that in the first place you wouldn't have needed the custom liner so you have kinda backed yourself up against a wall. I don't think the thermix is going to do squat, trying to get it into a half inch hole all the way around is going to be a major PIA unless you have a wand and way to blow it in.

Agreed it will not get down very far at all

 

[trx680]

I would recommend busting out the tiles, but then if you had done that in the first place you wouldn't have needed the custom liner so you have kinda backed yourself up against a wall. I don't think the thermix is going to do squat, trying to get it into a half inch hole all the way around is going to be a major PIA unless you have a wand and way to blow it in.

I contacted a few local chimney guys earlier this year about busting out the tiles. They either didnt want to do it or wanted to bust the tiles,sell/install a liner, and even sell me a woodstove. I have the liner and woodstove, just need the tiles removed.
I'll call around some more. If I get the tile liner removed that will give me enough room to insulate the 316ti liner with a half inch of insulation.
I only have a single story rancher. Anyone know the going price to have the liner busted out? I can buy the flue buster for $75 plus have to get the extension rods, probably 12-15' of rods.

 

[mellow]

Since it is a custom liner I would make sure a standard blanket size will wrap around it.

 

[trx680]

Do you realize that in the manual it says with a full liner 6" is acceptable?

https://www.manualslib.com/manual/47652/England-S-Stove-Works-24-Jc.html?page=2#manual
page 2 in the flue size needed section

i had another stove I bought used Buck 91 last year that was going to require a 8" liner. I decided against it and sold it. I have the Englader now. I already had the liner so I'm not going buy another.