Wiring question for new insert

[OverRHeads]

Hello All!

I have ordered an Osburn 2400 insert and it should be here in a week or so but I have some questions if anyone can help!

1. I have read about inserts having a "heat sensor" in the fan so that it will come on once the stove is preheated and turn off once it cools down. I have tried to find info regarding the Osburn but cannot find the answer. Does this model have this type of blower?

2. I did see that the fan has low and high speeds. My old insert (80's era Buck) had a rheostat on the fan which allowed for infinite fan speed adjustment. I am handy electrically so could I take out the high/low switch and install a rheostat?

3. The insert is going into masonry fireplace with a "Heatilator" type blower system that used to blow air from the fireplace to a vent on the other side of the living room and one in the hallway. The blowers were controlled by a thermostat in the hallway which is pictured below. I am toying with the idea of running the outlet that the insert blower will plug into off of this thermostat which will turn the fan on and off based on the temperature down the hall toward the bedrooms. Any thoughts?

Thanks and I am sure I will have many more questions in the very near future!!

 

[kksalm]

Sounds good to me. Hook it up and let us know what happens.
Cheers from Kenai, Alaska.

 

[OverRHeads]

***UPDATE***

I took the thermostat off the wall and found that it is a White-Rodgers Type 1A65-41 Style F2 thermostat. As I was looking closer, I see that it says "Non-Inductive Rating." Doesn't that usually mean that it isn't designed for the initial load that a motor needs to start? As I read about them, these thermostats say they are for "cable heat, baseboards, wall insert heaters, etc." This unit is direct wired to the blowers connected to my fireplace. Well, doesn't a blower consist of a motor with a fan attached? Did the builder install the wrong type of thermostat to begin with or do you suppose that I could use this with my new Osburn 2400 since the blower pulls minimal amperage?

 

[Eaglecraft]

Hello All!

I have ordered an Osburn 2400 insert and it should be here in a week or so but I have some questions if anyone can help!

1. I have read about inserts having a "heat sensor" in the fan so that it will come on once the stove is preheated and turn off once it cools down. I have tried to find info regarding the Osburn but cannot find the answer. Does this model have this type of blower?

2. I did see that the fan has low and high speeds. My old insert (80's era Buck) had a rheostat on the fan which allowed for infinite fan speed adjustment. I am handy electrically so could I take out the high/low switch and install a rheostat?

3. The insert is going into masonry fireplace with a "Heatilator" type blower system that used to blow air from the fireplace to a vent on the other side of the living room and one in the hallway. The blowers were controlled by a thermostat in the hallway which is pictured below. I am toying with the idea of running the outlet that the insert blower will plug into off of this thermostat which will turn the fan on and off based on the temperature down the hall toward the bedrooms. Any thoughts?

(broken image removed)

Thanks and I am sure I will have many more questions in the very near future!!

OverRHeads:

The fly in the ointment here is that your block-off plate, or stop, once installed, may kill the use of the existing Heatilator fan. It all depends on your install situation and how the Heatilator distributes its heat. My Superior Heatform (mind you - different from a Heatllator but similar in theory) cannot be used in its former manner to distribute heat. The block off plate killed this use, not to mention the fact that I cut out the "heat tubes" to get the SS Flex pipe down to my insert. That being said, your proposal just might work. A photo of you Heatilator and vent would help interpret your situation.

 

[OverRHeads]

OverRHeads:

The fly in the ointment here is that your block-off plate, or stop, once installed, may kill the use of the existing Heatilator fan. It all depends on your install situation and how the Heatilator distributes its heat. My Superior Heatform (mind you - different from a Heatllator but similar in theory) cannot be used in its former manner to distribute heat. The block off plate killed this use, not to mention the fact that I cut out the "heat tubes" to get the SS Flex pipe down to my insert. That being said, your proposal just might work. A photo of you Heatilator and vent would help interpret your situation.

Thanks for the reply but I may not have been clear in my original post.

What I am wanting to do is to completely disconnect the thermostat from the blowers in the heatilator utilize the thermostat in the picture (which is mounted down the hallway towards the bedrooms) to operate the blower on the new fireplace insert. I would like to find power in my crawlspace on another circuit, and install a new outlet beside the hearth to plug my insert blower in. I am hoping that the thermostat would turn the blower on and off as needed by applying and cutting power to the outlet based on the temperature down the hallway. I hope I explained that well! Sometimes it is hard to convey to someone else what seems to be clear in my own twisted mind!

 

[Eaglecraft]

OverRHeads:

The fly in the ointment here is that your block-off plate, or stop, once installed, may kill the use of the existing Heatilator fan. It all depends on your install situation and how the Heatilator distributes its heat. My Superior Heatform (mind you - different from a Heatllator but similar in theory) cannot be used in its former manner to distribute heat. The block off plate killed this use, not to mention the fact that I cut out the "heat tubes" to get the SS Flex pipe down to my insert. That being said, your proposal just might work. A photo of you Heatilator and vent would help interpret your situation.

Thanks for the reply but I may not have been clear in my original post.

What I am wanting to do is to completely disconnect the thermostat from the blowers in the heatilator utilize the thermostat in the picture (which is mounted down the hallway towards the bedrooms) to operate the blower on the new fireplace insert. I would like to find power in my crawlspace on another circuit, and install a new outlet beside the hearth to plug my insert blower in. I am hoping that the thermostat would turn the blower on and off as needed by applying and cutting power to the outlet based on the temperature down the hallway. I hope I explained that well! Sometimes it is hard to convey to someone else what seems to be clear in my own twisted mind!

OverRHeads:

AhhhhSoooo:

Sometimes what we read is not the message the writer intended to convey. It's a common problem. That's why I've always preferred to discuss issues face to face with the person who has the issue. In this case I'll accept responsibility for the mixup - So sorry.

I went to the web page for your stove - the 2009 model year and found this:

19 SE39150 BLOWER ASSEMBLY WITH HOUSING 2400 INSERT 1
20 44076 DOUBLE CAGE BLOWER 120 CFM 115V 1
21 44046 THERMODISC F110-20F 1
22 44092 3 POSITION ROCKER SWITCH (FOR 2 SPEED BLOWER) 1
23 44093 ROCKER SWITCH 2 POSITION WITH GOLD CONTACT

This implies pretty strongly that yes, your stove comes with a factory blower. These blowers operate with part #21 the thermodisk, which energizes the fan circuit when the stove reaches some preset temperature - maybe 200 degrees F. The 3 position switch is either a) off, or b) low speed, or 3) high speed. What you want to do - and I think I've got this straight - is to provide 120 VAC current when your existing thermostat is calling for heat (energy). That AC current will be available at a new outlet that you are going to install. The fan on your new stove will be plugged into that outlet.

As I see it, the existing thermostat will act like a light switch - fan turns on when thermostat closes- fan turns off when thermostat opens. I have a similar set up in my garage where I installed two, 240VAV heaters driven by a current carrying thermostat. In my situation, my garage thermostat carries the current load for both heaters. It's a heavy sucker.

The main question in my mind visualizing your situation is where is the power available to your existing Heatlilator? Is this hard-wired to the unit now? If so, you could put an outlet in the vicinity that is not going to get hot and power your new fan from that outlet. Just thinking out loud. I'm not an electrician, so I don't know if this arrangement meets code, but it may. After all it's operating just like a light switch, with the hot wire being interrupted by the thermostat.

 

[OverRHeads]

AhhhhSoooo:

Sometimes what we read is not the message the writer intended to convey. It's a common problem. That's why I've always preferred to discuss issues face to face with the person who has the issue. In this case I'll accept responsibility for the mixup - So sorry.

I went to the web page for your stove - the 2009 model year and found this:

19 SE39150 BLOWER ASSEMBLY WITH HOUSING 2400 INSERT 1
20 44076 DOUBLE CAGE BLOWER 120 CFM 115V 1
21 44046 THERMODISC F110-20F 1
22 44092 3 POSITION ROCKER SWITCH (FOR 2 SPEED BLOWER) 1
23 44093 ROCKER SWITCH 2 POSITION WITH GOLD CONTACT

This implies pretty strongly that yes, your stove comes with a factory blower. These blowers operate with part #21 the thermodisk, which energizes the fan circuit when the stove reaches some preset temperature - maybe 200 degrees F. The 3 position switch is either a) off, or b) low speed, or 3) high speed. What you want to do - and I think I've got this straight - is to provide 120 VAC current when your existing thermostat is calling for heat (energy). That AC current will be available at a new outlet that you are going to install. The fan on your new stove will be plugged into that outlet.

As I see it, the existing thermostat will act like a light switch - fan turns on when thermostat closes- fan turns off when thermostat opens. I have a similar set up in my garage where I installed two, 240VAV heaters driven by a current carrying thermostat. In my situation, my garage thermostat carries the current load for both heaters. It's a heavy sucker.

The main question in my mind visualizing your situation is where is the power available to your existing Heatlilator? Is this hard-wired to the unit now? If so, you could put an outlet in the vicinity that is not going to get hot and power your new fan from that outlet. Just thinking out loud. I'm not an electrician, so I don't know if this arrangement meets code, but it may. After all it's operating just like a light switch, with the hot wire being interrupted by the thermostat.

You nailed it! That's exactly what I want to do and how I want it to work!

Thanks for the info on the insert. I did not find a schematic on the website that showed the parts list that you found above.

I am not sure about the power for the heatilator type blowers because they are permanently encased under the masonry hearth. That is why I was just going to pull power from nearby and wire the thermostat and outlet to that circuit leaving the heatilator disconnected from the pictured thermostat.

The last thing I need to address is regarding the fact that the thermostat says non inductive. Is this the correct type of thermostat to run a blower/fan?

Thanks!

 

[Eaglecraft]

AhhhhSoooo:

Sometimes what we read is not the message the writer intended to convey. It's a common problem. That's why I've always preferred to discuss issues face to face with the person who has the issue. In this case I'll accept responsibility for the mixup - So sorry.

I went to the web page for your stove - the 2009 model year and found this:

19 SE39150 BLOWER ASSEMBLY WITH HOUSING 2400 INSERT 1
20 44076 DOUBLE CAGE BLOWER 120 CFM 115V 1
21 44046 THERMODISC F110-20F 1
22 44092 3 POSITION ROCKER SWITCH (FOR 2 SPEED BLOWER) 1
23 44093 ROCKER SWITCH 2 POSITION WITH GOLD CONTACT

This implies pretty strongly that yes, your stove comes with a factory blower. These blowers operate with part #21 the thermodisk, which energizes the fan circuit when the stove reaches some preset temperature - maybe 200 degrees F. The 3 position switch is either a) off, or b) low speed, or 3) high speed. What you want to do - and I think I've got this straight - is to provide 120 VAC current when your existing thermostat is calling for heat (energy). That AC current will be available at a new outlet that you are going to install. The fan on your new stove will be plugged into that outlet.

As I see it, the existing thermostat will act like a light switch - fan turns on when thermostat closes- fan turns off when thermostat opens. I have a similar set up in my garage where I installed two, 240VAV heaters driven by a current carrying thermostat. In my situation, my garage thermostat carries the current load for both heaters. It's a heavy sucker.

The main question in my mind visualizing your situation is where is the power available to your existing Heatlilator? Is this hard-wired to the unit now? If so, you could put an outlet in the vicinity that is not going to get hot and power your new fan from that outlet. Just thinking out loud. I'm not an electrician, so I don't know if this arrangement meets code, but it may. After all it's operating just like a light switch, with the hot wire being interrupted by the thermostat.

You nailed it! That's exactly what I want to do and how I want it to work!

Thanks for the info on the insert. I did not find a schematic on the website that showed the parts list that you found above.

I am not sure about the power for the heatilator type blowers because they are permanently encased under the masonry hearth. That is why I was just going to pull power from nearby and wire the thermostat and outlet to that circuit leaving the heatilator disconnected from the pictured thermostat.

The last thing I need to address is regarding the fact that the thermostat says non inductive. Is this the correct type of thermostat to run a blower/fan?

Thanks!

OverRHeads:

Not being an electrician, I can't advise you about your "Non-inductive" thermostat. If it were me, I'd take the thermostat off the wall (after de-energizing the circuit) and take to one of your friendly electrical contractors or electrical suppliers and ask them about it. Here were we live, there is one outfit that retails electrical parts that is also a licensed electrical contractor. So when I have a question about an install, I buy the parts from them and ask my question. The counter man is a licensed electrician who does not do electrical work anymore. So far this system works for me. The folks at the Big Box stores usually don't have this kind of knowledge - I'm sure there are exceptions, however.

Good luck - let us know what you find out.

 

[bucketboy]

hi there
the baseboard theremostat is designed to control current to an element or resistive load. the blower fan you are speaking of (if 110 volt, plug in type ) will not function with this type of themostat. in D C motors you change the current to change the speed. in A C motor you have to change the frequency to change the speed. ( we have 50 to 60 hz ) If you were to get a ceiling fan control, not a dimmer switch , it has to be a motor control , you would be able to control the speed of the fan. I wouldn t recommend using a baseboard heater thermostat as you may wind up with a fire at the themostat or the windings of the motor may overheat and cause damage.

 

[OverRHeads]

hi there
the baseboard theremostat is designed to control current to an element or resistive load. the blower fan you are speaking of (if 110 volt, plug in type ) will not function with this type of themostat. in D C motors you change the current to change the speed. in A C motor you have to change the frequency to change the speed. ( we have 50 to 60 hz ) If you were to get a ceiling fan control, not a dimmer switch , it has to be a motor control , you would be able to control the speed of the fan. I wouldn t recommend using a baseboard heater thermostat as you may wind up with a fire at the themostat or the windings of the motor may overheat and cause damage.

Thank you! That is the information I was looking for. This tells me that the builder used the wrong type of thermostat to control the fans on the Heatilator from the beginning (house built in 1982). It has not been functional for some time now since the previous owner converted to a vent free gas log. I guess they are just lucky that there was not a fire when they were using it!

In looking at the White Rodgers (Emerson) website, they sell thermostats for inductive loads so I may look into getting one of these. Would that solve the issue?

 

[Wood Heat Stoves]

you shouldn't use a rheostat on a 2 speed fan

 

[OverRHeads]

you shouldn't use a rheostat on a 2 speed fan

Thanks for the input. I thought more about it and have decided to stay with the two speed switch that comes on the unit.