Wood Boiler Permits

[Rickard]

I have a Biomass 40 WB with 2 500 gallon propane tanks for storage. It is working great, running since December of 2008.

I want to make it legitimate if I can. I am concerned about the propane tanks being allowed. They are used and so have no UL listing or anything of that sort and eventhough there is a safety factor of over 1000% could they not allow them? anyone have any experience with this? I live in Warren Co. NJ but any experience would be welcome.

Thanks

Dean

 

[stee6043]

Some municipalities are real sticklers for UL. Especially on the boiler. Not to mention the ASME stamps required on pressure vessel. It's case by case, inspector by inspector.

 

[Der Fuirmeister]

Why are you concerned about making it "legitimate"? It's in your house correct?

 

[Rickard]

Yes, the boiler is inside the house. I have couple of reasons. I want to install a hot water solar system that will share the storage tanks, and I am also thinking about insurance issues with not having town approved equipment.

Thanks

Dean

 

[stee6043]

Why are you concerned about making it "legitimate"? It's in your house correct?

If you want to be "legal" and not risk having a claim refused by your insurance provider it is typically a good idea to have a permit and have inspections by your local building inspector...

 

[Rickard]

I would really like to do that but I'm not sure if I can get permits and inspections for it because the boiler and the tanks are not UL listed. Is anyone else in this situation?

Dean

 

[stee6043]

Lots of people install and safely operate boilers without obtaining the proper permits. If you do things to-code and make sure your install is safe I'd think you would be okay. Your only real risk is insurance. Whether you installed it properly or not if you ever have a fire in your home you could have some problems with your claim. One strategy I've heard of for getting around this issue is switching insurance providers post-install. They can come out and inspect your house if required. Check the box for heating with fire (if there is such a thing) and perhaps you've found your loop hole....

 

[deerefanatic]

They're old propane tanks right? They should have data plates on them somewhere.........

As for your Biomax...... Get ahold of the boiler dealer and see if they have any certificates etc of safety testing......

 

[Rickard]

I've emailed the dealer for the boiler but haven't heard back yet but I expect to soon. The tanks had the plates stripped from them. Apparently they are required to do this when Propane tanks are taken out of service.

Thanks guys,

Dean

 

[stee6043]

I've emailed the dealer for the boiler but haven't heard back yet but I expect to soon. The tanks had the plates stripped from them. Apparently they are required to do this when Propane tanks are taken out of service.

Thanks guys,

Dean

Yupper....I paid the long dollar for new tanks for a few reasons, this being one of them...

 

[Chris Hoskin]

do the Biomax and EKO boilers have UL approvals?

 

[heaterman]

do the Biomax and EKO boilers have UL approvals?

I always assumed they had UL but not ASME approval as a pressure vessel. Selling something, let alone installing it without UL approval is pretty dicey business. Insurance companies are usually insistent on a UL listing. In addition, the absence of a UL listing pretty much disqualifies any product from being approved for government financial help, like the current tax credits, if I understand the current energy bill correctly.

 

[altheating]

Just to clarify, UL is Underwriters Laboratory. Many folks assume that the UL listing is needed, most if not all states require independent lab testing. That means that they test to UL standards. Wornock Hersey, CSE (Canada) and UL all have the same meaning. ASME is a totally different requirement, it is for the pressure vessel and usually only applies to boilers and pressure vessels in a commercial location or in some more restrictive states that require it on all boilers.

 

[altheating]

Oops, forgot to mention one more thing.
In New York State it is illegal to sell, install or even offer for sale or advertise for sale any heating appliance that does not have an independent lab testing certificate assigned to the product. The product has to be tested for indoor and or outdoor applications. I found this out when I was selling another brand of OWB and had to get a ruling from the NYS Codes Department in Albany.

 

[Chris S]

You are correct, but it is up to the local jurisdiction to determine what is acceptable. And so some may accept an overseas certification while others may not

 

[heaterman]

You are correct, but it is up to the local jurisdiction to determine what is acceptable. And so some may accept an overseas certification while others may not

Local jurisdiction can and sometime does pass things or items that aren't exactly "code". They can also choose to enforce the letter of the law..................do I hear someone rolling the dice?

 

[Rickard]

The BioMax boiler has the European EN 303-5 certification which apparently is up to the ASME standard. I don't know if the township would accept that or not. I don't know how to ask without getting into trouble.

https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/wiki/Boiler_Standards

Dean

 

[Gooserider]

It doesn't match the ASME boiler standard close enough in MA - as of the Boiler Rules meeting last week... A meeting that appears to have been conducted in possible violation of multiple MA ethics standards on conflict of interest, Open Meeting laws, and so forth, but that seems to be the way this state works...

As I understand the current situation, if you want to run a pressurized system in your house, you must purchase from Econoburn or Wood Gun, and pay the extra cost for the ASME stamp model. Euroboilers need not apply. However it does appear that if you want to run a "European open" style system where you "pressurize" the system by use of a water column going to an open tank at the top of the system, then there are no problems... I am told that it would theoretically be possible to build a system w/ an open column high enough to exceed safe boiler pressures and THAT would be "legal" but it would not be legal to make that system closed and operate at reccomended pressures... Gov't in operation, as usual...

Gooserider

 

[heaterman]

It doesn't match the ASME boiler standard close enough in MA - as of the Boiler Rules meeting last week... A meeting that appears to have been conducted in possible violation of multiple MA ethics standards on conflict of interest, Open Meeting laws, and so forth, but that seems to be the way this state works...

As I understand the current situation, if you want to run a pressurized system in your house, you must purchase from Econoburn or Wood Gun, and pay the extra cost for the ASME stamp model. Euroboilers need not apply. However it does appear that if you want to run a "European open" style system where you "pressurize" the system by use of a water column going to an open tank at the top of the system, then there are no problems... I am told that it would theoretically be possible to build a system w/ an open column high enough to exceed safe boiler pressures and THAT would be "legal" but it would not be legal to make that system closed and operate at reccomended pressures... Gov't in operation, as usual...

Gooserider

One minor note: Econoburn is ASME approved period. There is no additional charge.

In Michigan, one of those "code" states, the boiler inspectors will accept the open system modification to an EKO or other pressurized boiler. The only caveat there is that you are now dealing with a piece of equipment designed to be "closed" and have it exposed to the atmosphere.

 

[stee6043]

It doesn't match the ASME boiler standard close enough in MA - as of the Boiler Rules meeting last week... A meeting that appears to have been conducted in possible violation of multiple MA ethics standards on conflict of interest, Open Meeting laws, and so forth, but that seems to be the way this state works...

As I understand the current situation, if you want to run a pressurized system in your house, you must purchase from Econoburn or Wood Gun, and pay the extra cost for the ASME stamp model. Euroboilers need not apply. However it does appear that if you want to run a "European open" style system where you "pressurize" the system by use of a water column going to an open tank at the top of the system, then there are no problems... I am told that it would theoretically be possible to build a system w/ an open column high enough to exceed safe boiler pressures and THAT would be "legal" but it would not be legal to make that system closed and operate at reccomended pressures... Gov't in operation, as usual...

Gooserider

One minor note: Econoburn is ASME approved period. There is no additional charge.

In Michigan, one of those "code" states, the boiler inspectors will accept the open system modification to an EKO or other pressurized boiler. The only caveat there is that you are now dealing with a piece of equipment designed to be "closed" and have it exposed to the atmosphere.

If it were me...disclaimer disclaimer...I'd setup the water column open-system for insepction purposes only. Close off a few strategically placed ball valves and run closed system for day-to-day operations....disclaimer disclaimer....

 

[Gooserider]

It doesn't match the ASME boiler standard close enough in MA - as of the Boiler Rules meeting last week... A meeting that appears to have been conducted in possible violation of multiple MA ethics standards on conflict of interest, Open Meeting laws, and so forth, but that seems to be the way this state works...

As I understand the current situation, if you want to run a pressurized system in your house, you must purchase from Econoburn or Wood Gun, and pay the extra cost for the ASME stamp model. Euroboilers need not apply. However it does appear that if you want to run a "European open" style system where you "pressurize" the system by use of a water column going to an open tank at the top of the system, then there are no problems... I am told that it would theoretically be possible to build a system w/ an open column high enough to exceed safe boiler pressures and THAT would be "legal" but it would not be legal to make that system closed and operate at reccomended pressures... Gov't in operation, as usual...

Gooserider

One minor note: Econoburn is ASME approved period. There is no additional charge.

In Michigan, one of those "code" states, the boiler inspectors will accept the open system modification to an EKO or other pressurized boiler. The only caveat there is that you are now dealing with a piece of equipment designed to be "closed" and have it exposed to the atmosphere.

If it were me...disclaimer disclaimer...I'd setup the water column open-system for insepction purposes only. Close off a few strategically placed ball valves and run closed system for day-to-day operations....disclaimer disclaimer....

I don't see why... I can't think of any real advantage to running a closed system over an open one as long as the column is over about 25 feet or so, in order to get a boiler pressure in the 12-15 psi range (FWIW, I think I can get 30' in our house) a properly set up column should have very little evaporation, or heat transfer into the top expansion tank.

I'm also not sure that a savvy inspector would let you get away with it... There are a few differences in the setup that would make it obvious that you were trying to pull a fast one - a Euro-column setup does not need or have a use for, a conventional bladder expansion tank in the system, but an expansion tank is vital in a closed system - seeing a bladder tank would be a real red flag that something was odd. Also I would imagine that code would get very sticky about having valves in the line that would allow shutting off the column line to the tank. While in theory it shouldn't matter where in the system one tied into the column line, I suspect that code would require that line to be a direct run to the boiler room and be difficult, if not impossible to shut off w/o disabling the system... I'm not a code guy, but to me it's a pretty obvious thing to require...

Gooserider

 

[heaterman]

It doesn't match the ASME boiler standard close enough in MA - as of the Boiler Rules meeting last week... A meeting that appears to have been conducted in possible violation of multiple MA ethics standards on conflict of interest, Open Meeting laws, and so forth, but that seems to be the way this state works...

As I understand the current situation, if you want to run a pressurized system in your house, you must purchase from Econoburn or Wood Gun, and pay the extra cost for the ASME stamp model. Euroboilers need not apply. However it does appear that if you want to run a "European open" style system where you "pressurize" the system by use of a water column going to an open tank at the top of the system, then there are no problems... I am told that it would theoretically be possible to build a system w/ an open column high enough to exceed safe boiler pressures and THAT would be "legal" but it would not be legal to make that system closed and operate at reccomended pressures... Gov't in operation, as usual...

Gooserider

One minor note: Econoburn is ASME approved period. There is no additional charge.

In Michigan, one of those "code" states, the boiler inspectors will accept the open system modification to an EKO or other pressurized boiler. The only caveat there is that you are now dealing with a piece of equipment designed to be "closed" and have it exposed to the atmosphere.

If it were me...disclaimer disclaimer...I'd setup the water column open-system for insepction purposes only. Close off a few strategically placed ball valves and run closed system for day-to-day operations....disclaimer disclaimer....

I know nnnnnnnothing!

 

[stee6043]

It doesn't match the ASME boiler standard close enough in MA - as of the Boiler Rules meeting last week... A meeting that appears to have been conducted in possible violation of multiple MA ethics standards on conflict of interest, Open Meeting laws, and so forth, but that seems to be the way this state works...

As I understand the current situation, if you want to run a pressurized system in your house, you must purchase from Econoburn or Wood Gun, and pay the extra cost for the ASME stamp model. Euroboilers need not apply. However it does appear that if you want to run a "European open" style system where you "pressurize" the system by use of a water column going to an open tank at the top of the system, then there are no problems... I am told that it would theoretically be possible to build a system w/ an open column high enough to exceed safe boiler pressures and THAT would be "legal" but it would not be legal to make that system closed and operate at reccomended pressures... Gov't in operation, as usual...

Gooserider

One minor note: Econoburn is ASME approved period. There is no additional charge.

In Michigan, one of those "code" states, the boiler inspectors will accept the open system modification to an EKO or other pressurized boiler. The only caveat there is that you are now dealing with a piece of equipment designed to be "closed" and have it exposed to the atmosphere.

If it were me...disclaimer disclaimer...I'd setup the water column open-system for insepction purposes only. Close off a few strategically placed ball valves and run closed system for day-to-day operations....disclaimer disclaimer....

I don't see why... I can't think of any real advantage to running a closed system over an open one as long as the column is over about 25 feet or so, in order to get a boiler pressure in the 12-15 psi range (FWIW, I think I can get 30' in our house) a properly set up column should have very little evaporation, or heat transfer into the top expansion tank.

I'm also not sure that a savvy inspector would let you get away with it... There are a few differences in the setup that would make it obvious that you were trying to pull a fast one - a Euro-column setup does not need or have a use for, a conventional bladder expansion tank in the system, but an expansion tank is vital in a closed system - seeing a bladder tank would be a real red flag that something was odd. Also I would imagine that code would get very sticky about having valves in the line that would allow shutting off the column line to the tank. While in theory it shouldn't matter where in the system one tied into the column line, I suspect that code would require that line to be a direct run to the boiler room and be difficult, if not impossible to shut off w/o disabling the system... I'm not a code guy, but to me it's a pretty obvious thing to require...

Gooserider

The only real pain I see is the amount of overflow you'd need in an open system with 1,000+ gallons of storage. You'd need something like 40 gallons of acceptance at the top of your 33' line to run 14psi and 1,000 gallons of storage.

Mt suggestion was more of a joke...but if someone were to do it they would obvioulsy have to make the modifications after inspection, not before....

 

[Gooserider]

The only real pain I see is the amount of overflow you'd need in an open system with 1,000+ gallons of storage. You'd need something like 40 gallons of acceptance at the top of your 33' line to run 14psi and 1,000 gallons of storage.

Mt suggestion was more of a joke...but if someone were to do it they would obvioulsy have to make the modifications after inspection, not before....

I sort of agree, but something like an electric water heater would make a decent expansion tank. OTOH, it wouldn't be at all bad if running open storage, which is what I'm planning. I would love to run pressured, but there is no way I could get big propane tanks in and out of our basement, and I don't see much sense in trying to put the storage outside, next to the house. OTOH the boiler room has poured concrete foundation walls on three sides, on the end opposite all the interesting plumbing etc. It would be a fairly simple matter to build a second concrete block wall across the end of that room (w/ LOTS of rebar!) and thus make a concrete / foam / EPDM lined open tank. Alternatively I could maybe talk to Tom about a custom version of one of his tanks and see how the price compared...

If I do that all I would need for an expansion tank at the top of the column would be one of those little 15-20 gallon "low-boy" tanks that you sometimes see businesses using for bathroom DHW. Even that would be overkill, but I can't think of a lower cost smaller volume alternative...

Gooserider

 

[stee6043]

Why must money always get in the way of our great plans? Such a crock.

I was blown away by the cost of my two expansion tanks last year. Unreal....I thought the new 500 gallon propane tanks were pricey. By volume they were a bargain! ha.