Wood consumption and New Stove (vs fireplace)

[AppleRock]

Long time lurker here.

.....not another "which stove to buy" question, I promise. Rather WHAT to buy.

Very happy Security BIS II owner since 1995.

Now looking for (attractive) wood heater for our possible new log vacation home in NH.

Was looking at RSF Opel2 or Napoleon 3000 for a while. Noticed, as of VERY recently BOTH are now CAT only. (New EPA rules?)
I do not want a CAT stove or fireplace. Sounds like more trouble/maintenance than it's worth. (you can skip the plus/minus discussion, as this is definitely a NO)

But here's the thing. My BIS II seems to go through a fair amount of wood. Even on it's lowest setting, I'll get 2 hrs burn from THREE medium size pieces of wood. If I stuff the firebox (it's not very big) with THREE large pieces, I'll get 3-4 hrs burn with hot coals for another 2 hrs maybe.

(I'm almost to the question)
Now, my folks used to have a Vermont Castings Vigilant stove that I would rake care of when I was a young adult in the '80's. The thing didn't really burn that great, was finicky, but I think this was due to an improper corner install with 3 bends in the pipe.
However, once you got an established fire going in it, it would throw out a good amount of heat.
Three medium pieces of wood would normally last several hrs. I'm not sure what the Vigilant was rated for BTU, but my BIS II is 42,500 btu. (which is more than ample to heat the house). It did "appear" to go through less wood.

So, lately, I've been reconsidering my choice on the new log home in going with another efficient ZCF such as the RSF & Napoleon. I've starting looking at the Vermont Castings Defiant. (it does have a cat, but can be burned without it (or even removed?) from my understanding). Esp in porcelain, it is a nice looking stove. I believe it's rated at 75,000 BTU, considerably more than my BIS II. I'm also thinking it should outdo my current 5-7 hr burn time, due to the larger firebox, as my BIS II is tapered on the "Ceiling" and drops to 10" or 11" height in the back of the firebox.

Will the VC stove use less wood than my BIS II? I'm getting older now, and if I can use a cord less of wood a year (I currently use 2.5-3.5 with the BIS), that would mean less splitting and stacking for me.

Thanks in advance....

 

[Babaganoosh]

Want to cut wood use considerably? Get a stove with a cat.

Want long burn times? Get a stove with a cat.

Want that Vermont castings stove to run well? Run it with the cat.

Sorry man, cat stoves really aren't a hassle. Not what you want to hear but if you only came here for people to tell you what you want to hear then just do what yo want any way.

 

[Rearscreen]

Yeah my Progress is a lot of trouble dealing with the cat. Here's all of the trouble I have to go through. Lift off the 3 soapstone plates, lift the cast iron 3 temperature cast iron cooking plate that conveniently rests into a channel, slide the cat out, gently blow it with exhaust from a shop vac and then brush with a paint brush then reinstall. Takes me about 10 minutes every 2 months. I love using tools but tools aren't required, that's another problem. I'd rather cut, split, carry at least 2 extra non cat cords of wood in slippery ice. Keeps me on my toes and strengthens the heart.

 

[BrotherBart]

Any EPA stove you install is going to cut wood usage if you burn it right following advice available here. I used to burn 5.5 to 6 cord per year heating this barn with the love of my life insert I had for 21 years. After the first year of getting used to the EPA stove I put in that fireplace I whacked wood usage to 3.5 cord per year.

This site has lots of people that are fanboys of their non-cat as well as their cat stoves. Both do a fine job operated correctly. But it is true that if you install a cat stove, use the cat to get the performance the stove was designed for.

 

[BrotherBart]

Turn it into a cat versus non-cat battle folks and I will start blowing posts out. Too many years watching that cat fight. Pun intended.

 

[weatherguy]

I wouldn't get a stove you like and not use the cat, plenty of good non cat stoves out there that are efficient if properly seasoned wood is burned. Lot of nice looking ones too.

 

[Rearscreen]

This site has lots of people that are fanboys of their non-cat as well as their cat stoves.

Oh, I LOVED my Hearthstone Phoenix and Mansfield. Great stoves. Kicked and screamed when I was forced into The Progress because of the CAT feature. I wouldn't go back after living with this stove...unless technology gets even better.

 

[woodhog73]

I have a small new insert that is non cat. It works for me and I can get 5 or 6 hours of usable heat from it.

I like the idea of a cat stove but I've heard that when the cat is engaged to deliver 12 or 18 plus hour burns the heat output is greatly reduced. So that leads me to believe a cat stove in a small 2 cubic foot or smaller stove is not nearly as beneficial as one in a bigger stove. Small stoves with limited wood capacity and cat fully engaged put out minimal heat. Is this true?

I'm considering putting a 2nd stove in my basement. However in that application I can put in as big a stove as I want. So I'm thinking a cat stove in the 3 cubic foot range would be great. Load it once a day and have it put out medium amount of heat.

Sorry if I'm rambling. I think cat stoves are better for their long burn time. But I question their heat output in a small application. And with an insert how easy is it to get to the cat for maintenance ?

 

[Rearscreen]

I engage the cat turn it down and the temp goes up for some wacky reason. I think it's some sort of conspiracy.

 

[AppleRock]

Let me focus my question a bit more, opposed the the cat issue.

Our old VC Vigilant was NOT a cat stove.
Neither is my current BIS II ZC fireplace.
The VC stove seemed to use considerably less wood.

Are stand alone stoves a better "heating device" then a ZC air-tight fireplace?
Then there is firebox size.
1. My BIS II: 3 med-sem-large pieces max. ~16-18" long.
2. RSF Opel2: 4-5 same size pieces. (I've already checked) (now CAT only)
3. Napoleon 3000: 4 similar sized pieces. (a guess) (now CAT only)
3b. Napoleon 6000. Prob too large. My guess 6+ similar sized pieces. (NON Cat)
4. VC Defiant: ???? With top load, my guess maybe 5-6 similar sized pieces. (Cat included/optional)

 

[begreen]

The BIS was never meant for 24/7 heating. Says so in the manual I think. There are some other excellent zc fireplaces like Kozy Z42, Heat & Glow Northstar, Quad 7100, and some may heat the place better because the hot air can be ducted to other locations in the house. But for area heating a freestander is going to be more efficient at delivering heat into the room. When the power goes out, no contest.

Why compare performance with only one freestanding stove? There are many excellent choices with less complexity and a better repair history than the Defiant. It's a beautiful stove but not the only good looker on the block.

 

[edthesweep]

Let me focus my question a bit more, opposed the the cat issue.

Our old VC Vigilant was NOT a cat stove.
Neither is my current BIS II ZC fireplace.
The VC stove seemed to use considerably less wood.

Are stand alone stoves a better "heating device" then a ZC air-tight fireplace?
Then there is firebox size.
1. My BIS II: 3 med-sem-large pieces max. ~16-18" long.
2. RSF Opel2: 4-5 same size pieces. (I've already checked) (now CAT only)
3. Napoleon 3000: 4 similar sized pieces. (a guess) (now CAT only)
3b. Napoleon 6000. Prob too large. My guess 6+ similar sized pieces. (NON Cat)
4. VC Defiant: ???? With top load, my guess maybe 5-6 similar sized pieces. (Cat included/optional)

I'm 99% sure the defiant is the VC my stepfather has (his only heat source) It's a great stove, once you get to temp and close the damper you get 6-8 hours, and its small stove, prob six pieces max when you top load.
I think once you close damper it circulates the smoke down and under the firebox for complete combustion. Idk if it has a cat or not but if it does he's never performed any maintenance on the stove at all after ten years, maybe that's y chimney is clogged when I sweep it every year. Although it's always been that way but he did buy it used. Overall I love the stove, nice looking, nice heat output and long burn times once you get her cruising. The inside panels are fragile and breaking apart which from what I've learned here is normal and a downside to VC as opposed to simple standard firebrick all others use

 

[begreen]

Your Dad may have the original Defiant which was a reliable heating beast? If it has steel burn and back plates then it is the original. If refractory then it's newer. The OP appears to be talking about the modern (cat included) version in comparison.

 

[kennyp2339]

I am a cat stove guy but there are some really nice epa tube stoves out there, hearthstones is the first that comes to mind in my book.
It all comes down to what your heating also, if you have a new tight house with less than 2,000 sqft I would recommend a cat stove like a bk, due to the fact that you can turn the thing way down and burn 18-24hrs per load, but if your in a larger or leakier house your going to need extra btu's so then the cat stove becomes like any other stove because you have to run at a higher air setting to produce more (so your going to have shorter burn times), so it essentially becomes a wash.
My only real piece of advice here is don't get to attached to the new VC stoves, they haven't yet proven themselves and there coming from a line a problems.

 

[AppleRock]

The BIS was never meant for 24/7 heating. Says so in the manual I think. There are some other excellent zc fireplaces like Kozy Z42, Heat & Glow Northstar, Quad 7100, and some may heat the place better because the hot air can be ducted to other locations in the house. But for area heating a freestander is going to be more efficient at delivering heat into the room. When the power goes out, no contest.

Why compare performance with only one freestanding stove? There are many excellent choices with less complexity and a better repair history than the Defiant. It's a beautiful stove but not the only good looker on the block.

Thanks.
2nd paragraph is a tough one. Breaks down to looks. The wife doesn't care for stand alone stoves, and prefers a fireplace.
If I can get the standalone to outperform the BIS II we currently have, she may start to listen.
The Defiant was the only stand alone I showed her where she didn't start trembling and foaming at the mouth.

She liked the colored porcelain along with the matching stove pipe. (We will see 8ft plus of it, as it is straight up through the roof. Cathedral)
Some of the Soapstones I saw online "may" pass wifey inspection, though they were mostly cat stoves, which fail mine.

 

[begreen]

Show her the Quadrafire Explorer III, Jotul F600 and Enviro Boston 1700 in mahogany (or her favorite color) enamel.

 

[AppleRock]

Show her the Quadrafire Explorer III, Jotul F600 and Enviro Boston 1700 in mahogany (or her favorite color) enamel.
View attachment 190985 View attachment 190986 View attachment 190987

Thanks. Will give those a look.

 

[Niko]

Very weird when people say they are looking for a attractive wood heater. I mean do you really stare at your fireplace for hrs? i get the you dont want it to be neon blue or something but I take performance over looks specially when it comes to heating. It costs money to heat, why would you want to spend more money per day to heat your house? Your gone 8-10 hrs of it working, you eat, shower, watch tv, play with kids etc. so that leaves you very little time to just sit and say man that is one purdy stove,

Me I do all that above after 24 hrs then i reload my stove.

My number one for buying a stove, i don't have to refill the dam thing all the time and i domt have to babysit it.

 

[AppleRock]

Very weird when people say they are looking for a attractive wood heater. I mean do you really stare at your fireplace for hrs? i get the you dont want it to be neon blue or something but I take performance over looks specially when it comes to heating. It costs money to heat, why would you want to spend more money per day to heat your house? Your gone 8-10 hrs of it working, you eat, shower, watch tv, play with kids etc. so that leaves you very little time to just sit and say man that is one purdy stove,

Me I do all that above after 24 hrs then i reload my stove.

My number one for buying a stove, i don't have to refill the dam thing all the time and i domt have to babysit it.

I'm with you. That one is "not my call"
She wants another ZC fireplace. But I think a good wood stove will cost less to buy/install, heat the house better, and use less firewood.
Reason of my original post. To verify this.
RSF Opel2 ~ $3,900 + pipe & fans, fronts, vents etc
Napoleon NZ3000 ~$4,300 + pipe & fans, fronts, vents etc.
Napoleon NZ6000 ~$5,900 + pipe & fans, fronts, vents etc

Vermont Casting Defiant $3,700 in Maroon. + pipe & done.

 

[Niko]

I'm with you. That one is "not my call"
She wants another ZC fireplace. But I think a good wood stove will cost less to buy/install, heat the house better, and use less firewood.
Reason of my original post. To verify this.
RSF Opel2 ~ $3,900 + pipe & fans, fronts, vents etc
Napoleon NZ3000 ~$4,300 + pipe & fans, fronts, vents etc.
Napoleon NZ6000 ~$5,900 + pipe & fans, fronts, vents etc

Vermont Casting Defiant $3,700 in Maroon. + pipe & done.

Those napoleon are very nice. And i understamd the wife situation but is she gonna be the one the temds to the stove, feeds it amd cleans it?

 

[jetsam]

I do not want a CAT stove or fireplace. Sounds like more trouble/maintenance than it's worth. (you can skip the plus/minus discussion, as this is definitely a NO)

But here's the thing. My BIS II seems to go through a fair amount of wood. Even on it's lowest setting, I'll get 2 hrs burn from THREE medium size pieces of wood. If I stuff the firebox (it's not very big) with THREE large pieces, I'll get 3-4 hrs burn with hot coals for another 2 hrs maybe

getting older now, and if I can use a cord less of wood a year (I currently use 2.5-3.5 with the BIS), that would mean less splitting and stacking for me.

Your first paragraph is engaged in a losing fight with the rest of the message.

 

[firefighterjake]

Very weird when people say they are looking for a attractive wood heater. I mean do you really stare at your fireplace for hrs? i get the you dont want it to be neon blue or something but I take performance over looks specially when it comes to heating. It costs money to heat, why would you want to spend more money per day to heat your house? Your gone 8-10 hrs of it working, you eat, shower, watch tv, play with kids etc. so that leaves you very little time to just sit and say man that is one purdy stove,

Me I do all that above after 24 hrs then i reload my stove.

My number one for buying a stove, i don't have to refill the dam thing all the time and i domt have to babysit it.

For me the woodstove is right in the living room where my wife and I spend the majority of our time watching TV, reading, talking, etc. so having something that fits into the décor and looks decent was important . . . not as important as having a woodstove that would work well and keep us warm, but still important.

While I may not stare at the woodstove for hours upon end (the few times I do turn off the lights and TV and watch it I tend to fall asleep), the stove still takes up a chunk of space and is a visual feature of the room. As you say though . . . having a woodstove that is just pretty and not functional defeats the purpose . . . thankfully my stove does double duty and provides plenty of heat while looking decent.

 

[begreen]

I'm with her and Jake, but there are others that like big black boxes and that's just fine. Some prefer function over form and others the opposite. Our stove somewhat strikes a balance. It is a honking steel stove in a cast iron tux. I load the stove 2-3 times a day and love watching the fire at night. The stove goes with the older farmhouse style of the house and is a focal point in the room. Putting in a big black box would be like moving the clothes dryer in there. I'd never hear the end of it if the stove didn't complement the room.

 

[Niko]

a wise man once told me looks only last for so long.

Another wise man told me happy wife happy life.

 

[begreen]

I have a wise old (95) relative that told me - Ya can't eat the view.
Everything has beauty, but not everyone sees it - Confucius