wood-stove floor heating

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tansuman

New Member
Aug 25, 2007
13
www.tansuhome.biz
Hello Folks,

we are restoring an 100 year old Japanese farmhouse. We are naturally going to install wood stoves for heating. In the kitchen we are going to have our Heartland Oval. We purchased that with a water-jacket and the local stove shop uses the same Oval with a water-jacket for his floor-heating system.
Does anybody have any experience with that?

We would like to do that as well but only for kitchen and bathroom.
 
I'd love to see some pictures of the farmhouse. I'm having trouble picturing a Japaneese farm house.

Hope somebody can help you with the stove and welcome to the forum!

Matt
 
I am not sure how to upload photos, I don't really spend much time behind the PC. Japanese farmhouses are , at least for me very charming. Unfortunately the straw thached roof has already been replaced with roof tiles. Other then that it was still very original. Most of these houses were owed by rice farmers, in our case they also raised silkworms, which left some pretty interesting tools for us to find.

So it looks like nobody knows anything about the wood-stove floor heating.
If there is an interest ,I can post it after it's done. We decided to go for it because our kitchen-stove will go all day until late at night anyway. Why not use it more effectively.
 
tansuman said:
I am not sure how to upload photos, I don't really spend much time behind the PC. Japanese farmhouses are , at least for me very charming. Unfortunately the straw thached roof has already been replaced with roof tiles. Other then that it was still very original. Most of these houses were owed by rice farmers, in our case they also raised silkworms, which left some pretty interesting tools for us to find.

So it looks like nobody knows anything about the wood-stove floor heating.
If there is an interest ,I can post it after it's done. We decided to go for it because our kitchen-stove will go all day until late at night anyway. Why not use it more effectively.

Welcome to the Hearth Tansuman. Am I correct in guessing that this farmhouse is in Japan (as opposed to a Japanese style house built elsewhere?)? What you are describing sounds fascinating, but is a bit outside the american norms, and one of the things we run into is that other countries have different standards and ways of doing things - some of which aren't legal under US codes. Since almost all of our users (and especially our usual crowd of experts) tend to be Americans, we aren't always familiar with how they do things in other countries, but are interested in learning.

While there are wood fueled furnaces that heat water, and radiant hydronic floor heating is becoming quite popular, it is not a common thing in the US for water to be heated by a wood stove. Part of this is the emphasis in the US on clean burning stoves. New stoves in the US are required by law to have very low emissions, which is mostly achieved by using secondary combustion to completely burn the particulates and combustible gasses in the stove exhaust. This requires that the stove firebox operate at a very high temperature, but a water jacket makes this hard to do because it tends to pull to much heat out of the firebox. Do Japanese stoves not have to meet emissions requirements? Or are you exempt because you are restoring an antique?

We'd be happy to give you what advice we can, but may be limited because we don't know your equipment and standards.

On the other hand we would also love to see what you are doing with this.

Gooserider
 
Hello Gooserider,

you are assuming correctly, our house is in Japan.To tell the truth ,there must not be any emission controls on wood burning stoves yet. Most people still burn their garbage in front of there houses in old barrels. Rather annoying , to be frank. Now you have me concerned. Although most people here heat with heating-oil heaters which stink up the whole neighbourhood. I wanted to set a good example because we want to open a shop selling environmentally friendly products and services.
Would there be higher emissions even after the water is already hot?
The whole system is a rare thing here too , but wood I basicly get for free , so I thought I make the most of it. Looks like we will be the guinea pigs of wood stove floor heating :)

Thanks for your input, Tansuman.
 
One thing I forgot,

our wood cooking stove is made by a Canadian company called Heartland and the model is a 1912 replica named "The Oval". does anybody have any experience
with one of those?
My wife is a little concerned about the cooking on it, guess I will do most of it then.

Tansuman
 
Hmmm.... It sounds to me like you must not have much regulation about this - sort of surprising considering how rigorous Japan is about regulating other products. Here in the US, in addition to requiring stoves to meet safety standards for fire prevention, stoves made after 1988 must also meet EPA emissions requirements for clean burning, and many areas have made it illegal to install a non-EPA approved stove.

EPA stoves have the advantage of being much better heaters, they will give about 1/3 more heat out of a given quantity of wood than you would get from an older stove (what we usually refer to here as a "smoke dragon"), they put out almost no visible smoke, and deposit far less creosote in the chimney - many users report only cleaning their chimneys once a year, and not really needing it then.

There are two main methods they use to achieve this - the secondary combustion stove, which uses a carefully insulated firebox to keep the fire temperature over about 1,000*F and the carefully controlled introduction of additional air to burn the smoke; and the Catalytic combustion stove which uses a catalytic converter (or "cat" as we usually refer to it) sort of like the one in a car, to burn the smoke in a secondary chamber at a lower temperature. Each type has it's advantages and disadvantages, and you will see lengthy debates on the topic here.

They DO require that you only burn dry, well seasoned wood (usually cut and split for at least one year), no garbage or other trash, especially in cat stoves which are sensitive to having their catalyst "poisoned" or rendered inactive by the wrong materials.

As I see it, your question really has two different parts to it - how do you heat the water, and then what do you do with the water once it is heated. There are some threads on the forum where people have had stoves that they used for water heating, some for hot tap water (DHW, or Domestic Hot Water) and others for heating. However many of these stoves were also older smoke dragons. I'm not familiar with the stove you mention, but if it's a replica of a 1912 stove, it is probably not going to be very efficient or clean burning, at least by modern standards. The big challenge when heating water is to get enough heat into the water to be useful, while not cooling the fire down to the point where you either no longer have good combustion, or you start getting excessive creosote. What some people have done is to put the water jacket outside the stove, with a short gap between the stove and the jacket, so that the stove can radiate heat into it but not be cooled by the jacket. Having the water heated will reduce it's impact on cooling the stove, but not greatly - your water will normally never get over 180*F or so, and probably be closer to around 120*F. Considering that the firebox needs to be closer to 1,000*F and even the stove exterior is typically on the order of 4-600*F the fact that the water is warmer won't help a whole lot.

One thing that does need a great deal of care is to design the system with an appropriate pressure release valve in case of overheating, and especially if you are using a pump to circulate the water, designing a "failsafe" method to handle power failures, and other breakdowns. What I've seen described most often is to put a large tank in the ceiling over the stove for use as hot water storage, which is heated by convection currents, and which has a temperature / pressure release valve on it for safety.

The only modern stove I can think of offhand that is designed for use with a water heater is the Sedore stove, which might actually work well for your situation, as it can deal with many different sorts of fuels, doesn't have a cat, and can be equipped with an optional water heating coil - only problem is that a lot of people consider them to be incredibly ugly looking.

Hope this is helpful,

Gooserider
 
The Heartland has an optional stainless steel water jacket that goes inside the firebox and connects to the house plumbing to heat DHW Goose as well as a water resevoir on the stove for washing the dishes and stuff. It is EPA classified exempt since cook stoves don't have to meet emissions standards. You can also get an OAK for'em.

They are really nice looking five thousand dollar biscuit bakers with 2.4 CF fireboxes and 50K BTU output for heating.
 
Wow folks ,

lots of new information.I sure wish I would have found you guys before I bought that cooking stove.
It was shown to us with all this great things it can do, now it seems a bit overpriced.

thanks for all the input, Tansuman.
 
tansuman said:
Hello Folks,

we are restoring an 100 year old Japanese farmhouse. We are naturally going to install wood stoves for heating. In the kitchen we are going to have our Heartland Oval. We purchased that with a water-jacket and the local stove shop uses the same Oval with a water-jacket for his floor-heating system.
Does anybody have any experience with that?

We would like to do that as well but only for kitchen and bathroom.

Tansuman Welcome to the forum...Look forward to seeing your progress on your project.

Keep us posted!
 
tansuman said:
I am not sure how to upload photos, I don't really spend much time behind the PC. Japanese farmhouses are , at least for me very charming. Unfortunately the straw thached roof has already been replaced with roof tiles. Other then that it was still very original. Most of these houses were owed by rice farmers, in our case they also raised silkworms, which left some pretty interesting tools for us to find.

So it looks like nobody knows anything about the wood-stove floor heating.
If there is an interest ,I can post it after it's done. We decided to go for it because our kitchen-stove will go all day until late at night anyway. Why not use it more effectively.

It sounds like you are trying to do what we would refer to as "Radiant in the floor heating". Some of us here do have different versions of this type of heat.

You've got me curious. Does your home have a basement or is it elevated? Does it sit level with the ground. Here in this area most houses have a basement (recessed into the ground area) while in other parts of the country houses sit on (concrete) slabs... Some houses in the southern states are 'elevated' off the ground because of water/insects...

How cold do the temperatures in your area get in the cold months???
 
Thanks for the info BB, though it does sort of confirm what I had guessed - while it might be a nice unit, it probably is also a bit of a smoke dragon / creosote factory. However it will probably do the job safely as long as Tansuman keeps after the chimney sweeping part. It also does have the advantage of being a cookstove, which most of our EPA stoves aren't (even if you can sort of cook on some of them).

Now what gets interesting as I see it is how to use the unit for radiant floor heating. Normally the DHW system is kept seperate from the heating system, though I would guess that if you paid proper attention to materials and design it wouldn't have to be. I think some of the separation is tradition, and some of it is that the two systems operate somewhat differently, and some of the older heating systems used chemicals in the heating fluid, or radiator materials that weren't suitable for DHW contact. These days with modern materials like PEX, I could see how one might be able to combine the two, though I don't know if it would be a good idea.

As I mentioned before, the stove heated systems that I've seen put a tank in the ceiling above the stove, and worked on a convection loop basis to heat the water Mostly this was used for DHW, where the stove would keep the water in the tank hot, and the hot water would get drawn off and replaced by cold as part of normal use.

In a heating system, the loop would normally be to long for convection, and not layed out in an appropriate way, so you would have a closed loop with a pump that kept circulating the same water over and over, heating it in the stove or boiler, pumping it through the heating system, which would cool it, and returning the cooled water to the boiler to be reheated.

Since the stove has only one heat exchanger, the question is whether it should be used for heating, DHW, or some kind of combination. Another option would be to use the stove to heat one system with a second heat exchanger in the storage tank for the first to drive the other system.

However I'm not enough of a heating system designer to know how to figure the best way to do something like this.

Gooserider
 
Yeah Goose. I think it is looking for too much out of what is basically a really good looking cook stove to try to do all of this stuff. The stove can be connected to a tank instead of the house DHW but I think that wanders off into Mr. Johnson's area of expertise. Gotta be some engineering done. Too many stories out there of exploding pipes and stuff from the '80s when people put exchangers in their wood stoves.

That thing is going to toss enough heat to do a pretty good house heating job if they crank it enough to keep from crapping up the chimney. If a person needs a boiler they should get a boiler and no go blowing up the biscuit dough.

Note to the OP: OAK is and outside air kit for pulling intake combustion air from outside of the house instead of inside.
 
Goose that Sedore stove sounds really interesting. Is it EPA approved? They say it burns clean but they don't give a grams per hour listing. Does anybody here own one?
 
Tansuman take a look at this photo story of one Japanese man's use of wood heat with some specifics toward masonry heating.

Firewood Life

If you go to step 5 of his journal you will see a Thermorossi Bosky, this is an Italian cooking stove which has a back boiler system which can drive a few radiators and a hot water tank. There are other stoves which have this technology as well. Here is the link to the Bosky

As Goose has noted there are several stoves which have water jackets but most of these only have a reservoir on the stove. Here is a good link to DHW from a wood stove .

Most of the backboiler systems are on hob/cooker type stoves, almost entirely made in Europe. I don't know what you may be able to find in Japan.

Two other thoughts, most radiant systems run on lower water temperatures than radiator or forced hot water systems do. Even if heating the floor were feasible for you, you might need some storage tank, mixing valve and/or exchanger to make that work at which point a wood boiler would probably make better sense.

Finally do a search for 'ondol' this is a traditional Korean radiant floor. Given the proximity between the two countries you may find some sources, although given the recent historical animosity between Japan and Korea maybe not. Good luck
 
karl said:
Goose that Sedore stove sounds really interesting. Is it EPA approved? They say it burns clean but they don't give a grams per hour listing. Does anybody here own one?

I don't know for sure if it is EPA approved or not - in theory it should be since it's being sold in the US, but I don't know for sure. I know that one of the folks from Sedore was on the Hearth a while back, but I don't know if he's still active - it's been a while since I've seen him. (One of the problems w/ a lot of industry folks seems to be that they spend to much effort trying to promote their own products - Unlike Englander Mike and Corie, who do a better job of promoting their own company by helping everyone, no matter what they are burning) They might also be EPA exempt on the basis of being multi-fuel.

The other interesting point is that they claim to be ULC approved, but make no mention of UL approval - at least as I understand it, while the two bodies each work about the same, they are NOT interchangeable - and the US requires UL approval - this is why lots of products have both labels...

Gooserider
 
Hello Burn1,

thanks for all that info . My first choice would have been the masonry heater, we call it Kachelofen. I looked into that a view years ago , wanted to have it shipped from my homeland Austria to Japan. Unfortunately that was to expensive, my Heartland was cheaper then that. I wish I could contact Hikari-San. You wouldn't have an e-mail address of him ?

tansuman
 
Hey Brother Bart,

I don't want to blow up my cooking stove. We do have a skilled plumber, who told us about the danger and what we need to avoid that.
Personally, I can do without floor-heating.It's me trying to please my wife. She just loves floor heating, what is a man to do.;)

How ever ,much to the annoyance of my plumber , I am thinking to use the living room-stove to do that.

Tansuman
 
It sounds like you are trying to do what we would refer to as "Radiant in the floor heating". Some of us here do have different versions of this type of heat.

You've got me curious. Does your home have a basement or is it elevated? Does it sit level with the ground. Here in this area most houses have a basement (recessed into the ground area) while in other parts of the country houses sit on (concrete) slabs... Some houses in the southern states are 'elevated' off the ground because of water/insects...

How cold do the temperatures in your area get in the cold months???

Hello Keyman,

our house is made of a solid wood frame of natural shaped but hewn timber wich then rest on a naturals stone base. The floors used to be elevated about
30-40cm and coverd with Tatami-matts (jap. straw-matt) . I removed all the floors and found stomped mud beneath.The kitchen and living room area will get a cement foundation and then Terracotta tiles, the three remaining rooms will have insolated wood floors ( recycled trusses of an old school in the area ).
the walls are made of mud aswell.
After answering this I will go back to digging the trench for the waterpipes :)

hope that gives you a bit of an idea, oh and in the winter we had ones -10 degree Celsius that is, Tansuman
 
Greetings tansuman. I think the biggest issue you will face is heat loss. The main thing you will need to stop is the house from losing heat. This might be challenging in an old home. Especially when it was not designed to contain heat.

My understanding of simple Japanese farm houses is that they were mostly unheated during the winter. Instead there were charcoal heaters (kotatsu?) under a central, low table around which everyone sat. Is that the case here? Are there rouka (halls) around the main living space? If yes, I think the big issue will be heat loss through the wall and many gaps where the walls meet the roof, at doors and at windows. If there are sliding wooden windows they will leak badly in the wind as well.

The wood stove will be a welcome source of warmth in the winter. It will keep the kitchen area nice and warm. If you can open up the rest of the house to this warmth it will help. Adapting the stove to hot water floor heat will be a challenge, it will need a storage tank for the hot water, an expansion tank, safety valves, and a circulation pump on a thermostat. Be careful here. You want to chose someone experienced with this type of system and that may be very hard to find in Japan. Heating water with wood can be dangerous if not done correctly and safely.
 
Thank's Be Green ,

well, while we 've been discussing this , the floor heating pro made a nice estimate. It would have been more then $10 000,-. So we apologized and decided not to have floorheating. We will have isolation on all the ceilings, and also on all outside walls .The house is rather unique in it's design. But there are some sliding doors left ofcourse. We will install new floors through out the house and they will all be isolated and conected to the walls without draft holes.

Our Oval will still be in the kitchen , but now it will only heat our bath water, not the floor.
We will have a second stove in the living room, we decided to get a new" Vermont Castings Intrepet II". The one we have is a smaller version of that and about 15 years old. I guess we should be warm and cosy, don't you think?

Done a lot of digging today, for the water-pipes, tired as can be.

greetings , Tansuman
 
Hello Gooserider,

thank you very much for all the info and links. I still have a question left. When I install my stove , the chimney-pipes are going straight through the roof. Which is tiled. Is there a cheaper solution then using these pre-made fire protection peaces, one get's at the stove shop. Can't I just cement around a big enough opening and fit the pipe through?

I am prepared to be called stupid but I want to save the big bugs for our new stove.

tansuman
 
tansuman said:
Hello Gooserider,

thank you very much for all the info and links. I still have a question left. When I install my stove , the chimney-pipes are going straight through the roof. Which is tiled. Is there a cheaper solution then using these pre-made fire protection peaces, one get's at the stove shop. Can't I just cement around a big enough opening and fit the pipe through?

I am prepared to be called stupid but I want to save the big bugs for our new stove.

tansuman
That is an interesting question, and I'm not sure just what the answer is, given that you are in a different country, and have a different architecture. In the US, you would be required to use a "Class A" Stainless Steel insulated chimney from the point where you first passed through a ceiling to the top of the stack, including the mounting boxes which support the stack as well as providing fire protection. Here I would say that you were required to use the boxes, and suggest that you search for the large number of threads you'd find here about them.

I am not sure what would be required in Japan, and what changes in construction techniques would be required by your farmhouse, which is probably not built like a US "frame built" house. What I would suggest is that you check with whatever you have for code enforcement authorities there, and see what they reccomend.

I would also point out that the stack on a woodstove is just as critical to the performance of your heating as the stove itself, and is also a "Life Safety" critical system - it isn't a good place to try and cheap out.

Gooserider
 
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