wood-stove floor heating

[tansuman]

Hello Gooserider,

thought you would say that. I don't want to jeopardise our house by installing cheap stuff but all the supplied items at the stove-shop are really expensive.
Probably because they are imported. I am gonna look for some threads like you suggested.

thanks again, tansuman

 

[begreen]

Thank's Be Green ,

well, while we 've been discussing this , the floor heating pro made a nice estimate. It would have been more then $10 000,-. So we apologized and decided not to have floorheating. We will have isolation on all the ceilings, and also on all outside walls .The house is rather unique in it's design. But there are some sliding doors left ofcourse. We will install new floors through out the house and they will all be isolated and conected to the walls without draft holes.

Our Oval will still be in the kitchen , but now it will only heat our bath water, not the floor.
We will have a second stove in the living room, we decided to get a new" Vermont Castings Intrepet II". The one we have is a smaller version of that and about 15 years old. I guess we should be warm and cosy, don't you think?

Done a lot of digging today, for the water-pipes, tired as can be.

greetings , Tansuman

Tansunam, where are you located in Japan? There is a very big difference between heating in Hokaido and Osaka. Are you in the north, middle or south of Japan?

I thought that the floor heating would be expensive, but it is very nice heat. The Intrepid is a good stove. I think it will be fine. In the cold of winter, you will be busy every day feeding wood into the stoves. Be sure you have a good supply of dry wood.

 

[tansuman]

Hello BeGreen,

you know a lot about Japan, how come?
We live in the Nagano prefecture, it gets cold but with two stoves we will be fine.
We have had until now two stoves. One, what you guys call a smoke-dragon (bow-wood stove) made in China and our Intrepet II that was enough to have it nice
throughout the last nine winters I spend here. I just hope that at the new house we don't have all the neighbours dropping by to warm up again too.
My wife really wanted the floor-heating, but it's cheaper to buy a new more efficient stove for our new living-room.

The thing that troubles me are the stove-pipes. I just found out one cost me $ 450.-. Are they that expensive in the States too?

Greetings , tansuman

 

[Gooserider]

Hello BeGreen,

you know a lot about Japan, how come?
We live in the Nagano prefecture, it gets cold but with two stoves we will be fine.
We have had until now two stoves. One, what you guys call a smoke-dragon (bow-wood stove) made in China and our Intrepet II that was enough to have it nice
throughout the last nine winters I spend here. I just hope that at the new house we don't have all the neighbours dropping by to warm up again too.
My wife really wanted the floor-heating, but it's cheaper to buy a new more efficient stove for our new living-room.

The thing that troubles me are the stove-pipes. I just found out one cost me $ 450.-. Are they that expensive in the States too?

Greetings , tansuman

Yes, unfortunately the prefab chimney systems are quite expensive - it is not uncommon here for a person doing a new installation to spend as much or more on the chimney than they did on the stove...

What costs is the "Class A" part of the system - the insulated stainless chimney that you need to run from the ceiling to the top of the stack.

Typically you will need a support box at either the roof or ceiling level, a "pass through" kit at the other pass through point, a chimney cap, and a flashing kit at the roof to keep the rain out, and a sufficient length of pipe. You will also need "connector pipe" which is usually much less expensive, to go from the outlet of the stove to the bottom of the "Class A" pipe.

You might also check to see if there are any extra requirements for bracing or support due to much of Japan being in an earthquake zone.

Gooserider

 

[begreen]

Hello BeGreen,
you know a lot about Japan, how come?
We live in the Nagano prefecture, it gets cold but with two stoves we will be fine.

I am a traveler and love learning about different cultures. This has caught on with my children. My youngest started learning Japanese a couple years ago and hopes to study in Japan in a few years. So we've been reading up on the country, it's customs and culture. Nagano looks like a nice place to live with beautiful ancient architecture. I hope to visit some day. This is the only place I've seen where monkeys have their own hot baths. My son loves that. Smart monkeys!

I've also been interested in Japanese construction techniques, especially the most energy efficient. Last year I started looking a Japanese heat pumps. The heat pumps have a very efficient and quiet design. Did you consider a heat pump/split system? What are your electricity costs?

 

[bwolfe1]

Goose that Sedore stove sounds really interesting. Is it EPA approved? They say it burns clean but they don't give a grams per hour listing. Does anybody here own one?

Yes I own several. The stoves are ULC Approved, which has been OK for all customers insurance companies so far? The Sedore is not EPA Approved at this time but is undergoing some testing in Canada. .They're government has plenty of money for small disadvantaged businesses but not here in the US. I don't have any grams per hour figures but I can assure you that they work very well and I can't see much coming from the stack. It costs between $100,000.00 to $200,000.00 to develop a stove and have it tested. That would even be a major ex pence for the big guys who can afford. I wonder why our government has plenty of incentives for large companies with plenty of money and the little guy is left with an expence that would break the bank??? If the EPA is so concerned about cleaning up, then why is it that I can't even get a response from them as a stove Manufacturer?? I've called and written them for a year and have not talked to one live body and no responses to letters and e-mails. We as Americans need to take a stand on huge cooperation's controlling the market and cater to Smalll ones that may have a Superior Product but can't afford a couple hundred grand for testing and then pass laws requiring it?? Good luck enforcing that? The Sedore is a Axiom, if you want the best bang for the buck lets concentrate on other data that the smal guy can afford. This is a great stove thats simple to operate using half the fuel of most. We need to put an end to the fact that 75% of all businesses fail with-in the first year or nobody will have anything??
Respectfully,
Bruce W. Wolfe
Sedore Stoves USA
www.sedoreusa.com
Alternate Energy Solutions
47909 County Road 37
Deer River, Minnesota 56636
218-246-2908
218-556-5024
[email protected]
[email protected]

 

[bwolfe1]

Goose that Sedore stove sounds really interesting. Is it EPA approved? They say it burns clean but they don't give a grams per hour listing. Does anybody here own one?

I don't know for sure if it is EPA approved or not - in theory it should be since it's being sold in the US, but I don't know for sure. I know that one of the folks from Sedore was on the Hearth a while back, but I don't know if he's still active - it's been a while since I've seen him. (One of the problems w/ a lot of industry folks seems to be that they spend to much effort trying to promote their own products - Unlike Englander Mike and Corie, who do a better job of promoting their own company by helping everyone, no matter what they are burning) They might also be EPA exempt on the basis of being multi-fuel.

The other interesting point is that they claim to be ULC approved, but make no mention of UL approval - at least as I understand it, while the two bodies each work about the same, they are NOT interchangeable - and the US requires UL approval - this is why lots of products have both labels...

Gooserider

Can you send me something about the US requiring a UL vs a ULC Label? ULC and UL are the same organization in both countries.

 

[Gooserider]

Goose that Sedore stove sounds really interesting. Is it EPA approved? They say it burns clean but they don't give a grams per hour listing. Does anybody here own one?

I don't know for sure if it is EPA approved or not - in theory it should be since it's being sold in the US, but I don't know for sure. I know that one of the folks from Sedore was on the Hearth a while back, but I don't know if he's still active - it's been a while since I've seen him. (One of the problems w/ a lot of industry folks seems to be that they spend to much effort trying to promote their own products - Unlike Englander Mike and Corie, who do a better job of promoting their own company by helping everyone, no matter what they are burning) They might also be EPA exempt on the basis of being multi-fuel.

The other interesting point is that they claim to be ULC approved, but make no mention of UL approval - at least as I understand it, while the two bodies each work about the same, they are NOT interchangeable - and the US requires UL approval - this is why lots of products have both labels...

Gooserider

Can you send me something about the US requiring a UL vs a ULC Label? ULC and UL are the same organization in both countries.

Unfortuneately I can't send anything explicit, however the subject has come up in the past when discussing stove pipes and chimney matererial. UL and ULC are related, but their standards are apparently not always the same, thus a product can be approved under one standard but not under the other. Elk was discussing this in terms of a line of chimney products that had ULC labels but NOT UL labels, even though the Canadian standard at least on the surface looked tougher. According to Elk, inspectors are supposed to look for UL labels, and may or may not accept a ULC label.

Flip side, according to what I've been told (and again, I'm not in the business so this isn't definitive) a lot of the standards are similar so proof of meeting one can be used for getting a listing with the other (for an additional fee - of course) At the very least it is possible to specify that you want multiple listings when going through testing and your certification house will make sure that all the relevant tests are performed at the same time. Back when I was in the electronics industry I "baby-sat" a couple of systems that were undergoing standards testing, and we were having to go for about six or eight different approvals at the same time. Sometimes this got really ugly when two standards would call out different methods of doing things. We had a consultant that would have to arrange conferences with the different bodies to get a mutually acceptable compromise, or waivers as needed.

Gooserider

 

[Gooserider]

Correct Enord - the UL and / or ULC standards are basically fire safety related, though there is a great deal more to a UL listing than just clearances. Among other things they look at stuff like the thickness of castings or metal in the firebox, the strength and mounting of the glass in the stove doors, and so on through a long list. They even get into things like how hot the door handles are allowed to get (this is a tough one, and is why many stoves make the control handles detachable - if its not part of the stove, it doesn't have to pass that part of the test...)

This standard has not changed greatly over the years, in theory at least, you should be able to take a "new in box" sample of the worst smoke dragons out there, and if they past when made, they probably would still pass UL / ULC today, as the UL standard says nothing about emissions.

OTOH, The EPA test is strictly concerned about emissions - it doesn't look at fire safety, simply how much pollution a stove puts out.

Bruce from Sedore is making a legitimate complaint from where he sits about the costs of testing and it's impact on the smaller company. It costs several thousand dollars PER TRY, regardless of whether you pass or not. If you fail, you pay for the failed test, (hopefully) fix the problem, then call them back in for another test, with another several thousand $ bill...

If you are a company like VC, selling thousands of stoves per year, this is not a big deal, it only adds a couple of bucks to the cost of each stove, and you get the cost back in a hurry. If you are a startup like Bruce, then it gets a lot harder; you have fewer stoves to amortize the cost of the test over, and often a more severe cash flow issue that requires you to recoup the costs quickly.

I don't know what the best sollution would be. As a libertarian I'm opposed to gov't subsidies of any sort, but the problem is a real one...

Gooserider

 

[bwolfe1]

I'm not looking for any government handouts, but I do expect our government to help protect the small businessman from being required to perform testing that is only affordable to large corporations? Then they tell you where you have to have it done? What a rigged game and before long every small businessman in this country will be driven out. You'll buy all your stoves from Home Depot, Wal Mart, Lowes, Microsoft, Exon, and maybe Sams Club. This country was not founded on large corporations selling nothing but imported junk and something has to be done for small business. I may go under with this motto, but I'll go down feeling good about myself. There are still some citizens in this country that would like to buy a QUALITY MADE US PRODUCT AND ARE TIRED OF SUPPORTING THESE HUGE CONGLOMERATES???

We're talking about particulates in the air for woodstoves and all kinds of fancy gas numbers that don't mean anything to the regular consumer. They want something they can understand and that's simple descriptions. Catalyst stoves are just like our auto's here. Why not burn the fuel completely to start off. If this process is done without all sorts of fancy numbers and over engineered devices everyone’s skeptical?? I for one refuse to fall into this mass paranoia and think that things have to be over complicated to operate efficiently. I am an engineer and have seen what this does to products? You take a simple product that works great, but that’s not good enough? We must change it drastically over the period of years to keep up with the competition, (Microsoft Vista)?? What ever happened to sticking with a good product? I worked with a company that sold Medical and Dental Sterilizers in the 80"s. They had a great product but that all had to change, as it was the digital/microprocessor revolution. So we took the simple, reliable product and controlled it with digital electronics, instead of the components that worked great for 15 years. Guess what? They were way more expensive to make, and broke down on a regular basis, as mixing digital electronics and 300 F steam didn't seem to work for some reason?? The company went bankrupted over this stupid idea that all devices have to be massively complex to work well be efficient.

I found a product here in the Sedore Stove that does a great job of heating large spaces, on very little fuel. Now if that doesn't add up on the exhaust gas engineers spectrum analyzer, or better yet there is a possibility that it might not, so we'll assume is doesn't until it proves itself. Personally I found it comforting to find a product that has the ability to heat your home, (Furnace, No EPA listing required) with a wide flexibility of fuel options, simple to operate, hand made in the USA by a small company. Hopefully others will feel the same and maybe I'll make it?? But if everyone is a professional skeptic and won't give a product a chance, without even seeing it perform, I’ll at least have the satisfaction of knowing I did my part to produce a quality USA Manufactured Product, that was amazingly simple and versatile, and I gave it my best shot.

Sorry I got on a roll there please don't take it personally,
Bruce W. Wolfe

 

[Gooserider]

I'm not taking it personally Bruce, as I realize that you are mad at the system, not at me... I agree with your complaints about the expense of the testing, and that at least on paper your stoves probably do burn very cleanly (and that testing won't make them cleaner...) However, the reality is that at least some jurisdictions have pretty stringent restrictions on selling stoves that aren't certified as meeting the gov't emissions standards - since Hearth.com gets read all over the place, I have a certain amount of trouble suggesting your stoves to people that either might not be able to install them, or wouldn't be allowed to burn them. (Note that this is *ME*, not any sort of "official policy")

I wish there was some sort of "small business" clause in the stove regs like there is in the motorcycle business, where custom shops and small manufacturers get waivers or less stringent requirements than the big brands.

Gooserider

 

[Beanscoot]

I'd keep the mud floor... when hardpacked and dry, it's really quite clean, and a lot easier to dig into to add and/or relocate pipes for your infloor heat system. Just tile over it.