Wood stove inside fireplace?

[oddodaoddo]

Hello!

I posted here a few days ago asking about lining a brick/mortar chimney with an SS liner for an Englander 30-NCH stove. I decided to go ahead and get the liner installed by a certified chimney/woodstove company. We have two fireplaces next to each other, one of them used to be a gas fireplace with something called "heatelator" in it. The other is just a standard fireplace. The chimney is in the middle of the house, standard terracotta lined chimney.

The stove we have was gifted to us by someone, it is brand new (and took a lot of effort to get inside the house at 400+ pounds!). It turned out that due to clearances and size of the stove, it will protrude too far out and towards the middle of the room, taking up considerable space, no matter which place we want to put it in order to vent it through the "to-be lined" chimney.

Two questions:

1) One of the fireplaces is bigger than the other and can fit the stove. Bad idea?
2) For lack of better option, we can put the stove in a corner and vent it through the wall - any drawbacks to this?
3) Is there anything that can be installed behind the stove (over the "combustibles") that can reduce the required distance from said combustibles?

Thanks!

 

[cjgoode]

Yes you can build a barrier behind the stove to cut down on the distance to combustibles, but there is specific requirements on how it must be built with space and air flow between the two and check with local codes to what is legal and not. Check the distance on your stove, many are now built for mobile home use and have close clearances in the rear already. Yes you can go through the wall and up. Not as good as straight up, but a 90 degree into a wall thimble and to the T and then up. My T is 2 feet beyond the wall so I could clear the eve since I did not want to cut the roof at all. An alleged draft expert at woodlanddirect worked with me to make sure I still had enough up to get a good draft. So far works great with a very quick draft and easy to get the fire lit.

 

[oddodaoddo]

Ok - let me just stop at the first question - is it a bad idea to put the englander inside the fireplace? What clearances need to be observed in that case if it is even possible?

Thanks!

 

[DuaeGuttae]

Ok - let me just stop at the first question - is it a bad idea to put the englander inside the fireplace? What clearances need to be observed in that case if it is even possible?

Thanks!

I believe that one of the moderators, @BrotherBart , has an Englander inside his fireplace in Virginia, and it’s effective. I’m making my first attempt to “ping” someone so that he can give you feedback.

 

[oddodaoddo]

I believe that one of the moderators, @BrotherBart , has an Englander inside his fireplace in Virginia, and it’s effective. I’m making my first attempt to “ping” someone so that he can give you feedback.

Thanks!

 

[SuperJ]

@Ashful has a stove in a fireplace too. He's pointed out a couple times that it's important to get a convective stove if your going to stick it in a stone cave or you will waste all your heat out the masonry.

 

[Ashful]

@Ashful has a stove in a fireplace too. He's pointed out a couple times that it's important to get a convective stove if your going to stick it in a stone cave or you will waste all your heat out the masonry.

Amen, brother. If your fireplaces are exterior masonry, as is common here in the mid-Atlantic states, any heat radiated into the fireplace will do a better job of heating your back yard than heating your house. However, if you have a central fireplace as is more common in New England, it's not necessarily a bad thing.

I have no experience with the 30-NCH, but you'll want to be sure your stove has a convective jacket design (i.e. "box in a box") to prevent them radiating most of their heat into that external masonry, if that's your situation.

 

[oddodaoddo]

Amen, brother. If your fireplaces are exterior masonry, as is common here in the mid-Atlantic states, any heat radiated into the fireplace will do a better job of heating your back yard than heating your house. However, if you have a central fireplace as is more common in New England, it's not necessarily a bad thing.

I have no experience with the 30-NCH, but you'll want to be sure your stove has a convective jacket design (i.e. "box in a box") to prevent them radiating most of their heat into that external masonry, if that's your situation.

Hello, the brick fireplace and chimney is in the middle of the house.

 

[oddodaoddo]

What about clearances inside the fireplace box? The stove would have to observe the "non combustible" clearances to fireplace box walls - correct?

 

[RandyBoBandy]

Isn't the Englander a pedistal stove?

 

[oddodaoddo]

Isn't the Englander a pedistal stove?

Yes. It comes with either a pedestal or a set of legs. I am a total newbie - that's why I am asking all these questions - apologies if they sound dumb.

 

[RandyBoBandy]

Yes. It comes with either a pedestal or a set of legs. I am a total newbie - that's why I am asking all these questions - apologies if they sound dumb.

You don't sound dumb at all. That's why you are here as well as all of us are. This is a good community with very helpful people ranging from the new guys like you and I all the way up to the professionals. You are going to want to put on the legs as I would assume the pedistal will be to tall. Post your firebox measurements and the pros will help you with the rest.

 

[FTG-05]

I modified my fireplace to make it an alcove and then installed my Englander 30-NCH inside it, see pics below.

The difference, IRC, between the pedestal vs. legs is the pedestal comes with an Outdoor Air Kit (OAK), the legs do not. An OAK is required for a mobile home installation (probably won't apply to the OP). I wanted an OAK, so I have the legs around here somewhere, if someone wants them, PM me and I'll send them to you.

Pics:

From:

To:

 

[oddodaoddo]

I modified my fireplace to make it an alcove and then installed my Englander 30-NCH inside it, see pics below.

The difference, IRC, between the pedestal vs. legs is the pedestal comes with an Outdoor Air Kit (OAK), the legs do not. An OAK is required for a mobile home installation (probably won't apply to the OP). I wanted an OAK, so I have the legs around here somewhere, if someone wants them, PM me and I'll send them to you.

Pics:

From:

View attachment 219886


To:

View attachment 219887

Wow, that's quite a modification

I am thinking my fireplace box is way too small for the stove (looking at yours). I will post measurements. Which kind of makes me doubt my stove installer / chimney sweep, he wants to kind of "cram it" in there....

 

[oddodaoddo]

Ok. Here are the dimensions of the firebox from the fireplace:

front width: 37 inches
back width: 28 inches
depth: 22 inches
height: 39 inches

Attached are the photos. The installer is proposing to take the brass front off and slide the stove in and run the flue vertically into the SS lined chimney. The stove would sit partially inside the box and partially out on the brick.


I think it is not safe but what do I know....

Thanks!

 

[DuaeGuttae]

Wow, that's quite a modification

I am thinking my fireplace box is way too small for the stove (looking at yours). I will post measurements. Which kind of makes me doubt my stove installer / chimney sweep, he wants to kind of "cram it" in there....

Your fireplace is full brick and masonry, right?

There are lots of fireplaces that are pre-fabricated and put into a combustible chase (sometimes with a stone or brick facade). People tear those out to build an alcove. They need to have lots of space to be an appropriate distance from combustibles.

If your full masonry fireplace has been inspected and clearance to combustibles has been verified, you should be able to install a stove there with an insulated liner going up the chimney if that’s what you really want to do.

Let me see if I can dig up an old thread for you.

 

[Ashful]

Yes. Clearance to combustibles is a literal term. So, answering your previous question about the safety of just sliding it into your current fireplace is dependent on knowing what combustibles are behind and around said fireplace. If it’s a steel box (prefab) in a wood stud closet, then it ain’t gonna work. If it’s an all-masonry structure right down to earth, with no wood framing, then it may work (depending on trim, mantle, etc.). The product manual will clearly outline the required clearances.

Another option, if it doesn’t fit, would be a stove insert. You might sell this and pick one up for similar price.

 

[Ashful]

BTW, if you want to see the extreme case on sliding a big stove into a small fireplace, check out Nick Mystic’s install. I believe his is safe and legal, even though it’s as tight as a fat lady in an airplane coach class seat.

 

[oddodaoddo]

Your fireplace is full brick and masonry, right?

There are lots of fireplaces that are pre-fabricated and put into a combustible chase (sometimes with a stone or brick facade). People tear those out to build an alcove. They need to have lots of space to be an appropriate distance from combustibles.

If your full masonry fireplace has been inspected and clearance to combustibles has been verified, you should be able to install a stove there with an insulated liner going up the chimney if that’s what you really want to do.

Let me see if I can dig up an old thread for you.

Hello, the fireplace is brick all the way up to the roof. The firebox pictured in the photo is just brick/mortar. What worries me is that a) the stove is a tight fit to the firebox and b) since the stove will be sticking half out, there are combustibles above it - I take it I should just tear them out?

My understanding is that even with non-combustibles surrounding the stove there should be some clearances maintained (I think Englander wants 8 inches in the back) and I am not sure if I can provide exactly the 8 inches. Then there is the attached fan in the back - it would be stuck behind the stove in the fireplace and I would have no access to it to replace if it dies, in addition to it not really being able to do its job. Am I correct in thinking this?

Thanks!

 

[DuaeGuttae]

Hello, the fireplace is brick all the way up to the roof. The firebox pictured in the photo is just brick/mortar. What worries me is that a) the stove is a tight fit to the firebox and b) since the stove will be sticking half out, there are combustibles above it - I take it I should just tear them out?

Thanks!

Your stove manual should list clearance to combustibles for trim or mantel and whether any kind of shielding is allowed to reduce them. Your installer should be knowledgeable about that. Definitely ask.

https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads...otul-harman-pe-fireplace-installation.132027/

That thread asks about different stoves in a fireplace, but it has brotherbart’s contributions about his along with a photo. (He did a custom paint job on his.)

 

[oddodaoddo]

Yes. Clearance to combustibles is a literal term. So, answering your previous question about the safety of just sliding it into your current fireplace is dependent on knowing what combustibles are behind and around said fireplace. If it’s a steel box (prefab) in a wood stud closet, then it ain’t gonna work. If it’s an all-masonry structure right down to earth, with no wood framing, then it may work (depending on trim, mantle, etc.). The product manual will clearly outline the required clearances.

Another option, if it doesn’t fit, would be a stove insert. You might sell this and pick one up for similar price.

The fireplace is on the main floor which rests on a concrete wall basement. It is all brick/mortar. English is not my first language so the word "masonry" throws me off a bit, to me masonry means stone, not brick but I take it by masonry you mean brick/mortar as well? It is a massive thing in the middle of the house extending all the way up through the second floor and out to vent on the roof. I am going to have them install a SS liner.

 

[DuaeGuttae]

Hello, the fireplace is brick all the way up to the roof. The firebox pictured in the photo is just brick/mortar. What worries me is that a) the stove is a tight fit to the firebox and b) since the stove will be sticking half out, there are combustibles above it - I take it I should just tear them out?

My understanding is that even with non-combustibles surrounding the stove there should be some clearances maintained (I think Englander wants 8 inches in the back) and I am not sure if I can provide exactly the 8 inches. Then there is the attached fan in the back - it would be stuck behind the stove in the fireplace and I would have no access to it to replace if it dies, in addition to it not really being able to do its job. Am I correct in thinking this?

Thanks!

I think BrotherBart’s fan did die, so that is an issue to be aware of. I hope he’ll see this discussion and chime in.

You mentioned the option of doing a corner install. In part, the question is, how much do you want this particular stove in this particular fireplace?

 

[DuaeGuttae]

The fireplace is on the main floor which rests on a concrete wall basement. It is all brick/mortar. English is not my first language so the word "masonry" throws me off a bit, to me masonry means stone, not brick but I take it by masonry you mean brick/mortar as well? It is a massive thing in the middle of the house extending all the way up through the second floor and out to vent on the roof. I am going to have them install a SS liner.

Masonry does mean brick and mortar as well.

It sounds like an excellent place to put some sort of stove. Do you mind tearing off the trim if that is necessary?

 

[oddodaoddo]

Masonry does mean brick and mortar as well.

It sounds like an excellent place to put some sort of stove. Do you mind tearing off the trim if that is necessary?

I don't mind at all. In fact I find it quite dumb looking (the trim) - I prefer brick.

 

[Ashful]

Hello, the fireplace is brick all the way up to the roof. The firebox pictured in the photo is just brick/mortar. What worries me is that a) the stove is a tight fit to the firebox and b) since the stove will be sticking half out, there are combustibles above it - I take it I should just tear them out?

My understanding is that even with non-combustibles surrounding the stove there should be some clearances maintained (I think Englander wants 8 inches in the back) and I am not sure if I can provide exactly the 8 inches. Then there is the attached fan in the back - it would be stuck behind the stove in the fireplace and I would have no access to it to replace if it dies, in addition to it not really being able to do its job. Am I correct in thinking this?

Thanks!

Yep, "masonry" just means anything assembled by masons, eg. stone, brick, concrete, mortar.

Yes, some stoves have clearance issues, even to non-combustibles. I run Blaze King Ashford stoves, and they have a rear clearance requirement, for their thermostat to function properly. I'd be surprised if Englander has anything like that.

Let's get some experts here, to answer your questions:

@stoveguy2esw from England Stove Works
@bholler one of our resident chimney sweep / installer
@BrotherBart 30-NC owner of many years, and his installed half in/out of a fireplace, I think.
@Hogwildz just seems to know a lot about this chit
@Nick Mystic with that fat lady in a small airplane seat tight install