woodheat.org?

[hearthstoneheat]

I was reading through info on woodheat.org and I'm reading conflicting things between info on there and info on here. Woodheat.org says stove thermometers aren't necessary, OAKs are bad (even though mine seems to work fine), etc, etc. Info from people on here state otherwise. I'm not sure what info I should believe. What are your thoughts on that site? What info is more accurate? I would thinlk info on this site would be, just because of the sheer number of experiences people have had.

 

[webbie]

Mostly opinions - but woodheat.org is a canadian outfit and I think some science shows that OAK are not good in some cases in colder climes.

As usual, all this stuff "depends". Personally, I like a stovetop thermometer - but proper use assumes some common sense. I do not promote OA in older homes or those with lots of ventilation and room....at least with wood stoves.

Pellet stoves use a tremendous amount of combustion air, so things may be different, but again it probably depends on a lot of factors. Introducing very cold air into a pellet fire is probably not a great thing!

 

[oldspark]

I was reading through info on woodheat.org and I'm reading conflicting things between info on there and info on here. Woodheat.org says stove thermometers aren't necessary, OAKs are bad (even though mine seems to work fine), etc, etc. Info from people on here state otherwise. I'm not sure what info I should believe. What are your thoughts on that site? What info is more accurate? I would thinlk info on this site would be, just because of the sheer number of experiences people have had.

He gives good solid advice and explains why, just some thing else to take into consideration.
http://www.woodheat.org/tips/fpthermometer.htm

 

[Dakotas Dad]

YMMV.


I figure millions of people burn for decades and never know more about their stove temp then hot, hotter, %*!hot. And they get through fine. But they don't get the top performance from their stoves or wood, but for a lot of people, that's ok. One of my neighbors was asking about how much wood I was putting up when he saw me clearing space in the woods close to the house, and when I told him I want to have 9 cords stacked, so I have 3 years worth ready, he thinks that's crazy talk. His family has heated with wood for generations and they cut it in the summer and split it on the way to the stove in the winter...

My point being, besides just a funny story, is lots of ways to skin a cat, and all cats are different. There are examples out there of people doing everything "wrong" at all kinds of things, and yet they are still satisfied with their "success".. and people doing everything "right" with no success.

Anytime you try to state absolutes, there are problems.

OAK's ARE BAD. in some situations.

OAK's ARE THE CAT'S MEOW.. in some situations.

etc etc.

Heck, even that exhaust fan thingy the guy was hocking on here yesterday is probably good/bad, (for something) depending on the situation.

 

[firefighterjake]

Hmmm . . . not so sure I agree with their statement about thermometers . . . I mean to say . . . Yes you do not need a thermometer to run your woodstove . . . and it's possible to run it safely . . . but I suspect that a large number of people truly do not know when their woodstove is too hot . . . or when it is running too cool. To many folks if they see flames and heat is coming out, they figure it's good.

For me I use my stove top thermometer to a) insure I do not over fire the stove and b) know when I can start to cut back the air control and achieve secondary combustion without suffocating the fire. I use the flue thermometer to a) keep myself from over-firing the chimney and b) keep myself from burning at temps too low which can cause an excessive amount of creosote build up.

Having thermometers is no replacement for knowing how to run a woodstove and knowing that doing X = change in Y . . . but they are a useful back-up.

I guess I have the same feeling for thermometers on the stove and flue as I do for my car's speedometer and fuel gauge. Technically I don't need my speedometer or fuel gauge -- after awhile you can get a feel for how fast you are going and you have a rough idea . . . and you have an idea of how many miles you can go before you need to fill up . . . but would I rather have that speedometer or just guess how fast I'm going based on my experience if I'm driving through an area rife with police and speed traps . . . or would I like to know exactly how much fuel I have in the tanks or just rely on my best guess as to when I'm going to run out of fuel when I'm in an area with gas stations that are far and few between? Same thinking applies to thermometers . . . yeah, they may not be super duper accurate, but they're a little more accurate than my guess as to what is too hot or too cool . . . or at least another tool to get some feedback from . . . and when it comes to preventing damage to my stove, flue and keeping the creosote from building up I'll spring for a few inexpensive tools like thermometers.

 

[hearthstoneheat]

There's some good info on the site, don't get me wrong. I'm skeptical on some things though...especially as Dakotas Dad mentioned when things are stated as absolute.

 

[Dakotas Dad]

There's some good info on the site, don't get me wrong. I'm skeptical on some things though...especially as Dakotas Dad mentioned when things are stated as absolute.

Of course, you do realize the irony of the fact that ...

"Anytime you try to state absolutes, there are problems."

is an absolute...

;-)

 

[BrotherBart]

woodheat.org is John Gulland's website and John pretty much invented trees. Most of his personal advice on wood burning you can take to the bank. He has spent his whole career on the subject.

 

[precaud]

woodheat.org is John Gulland's website and John pretty much invented trees. Most of his personal advice on wood burning you can take to the bank. He has spent his whole career on the subject.

ditto

 

[hearthstoneheat]

woodheat.org is John Gulland's website and John pretty much invented trees. Most of his personal advice on wood burning you can take to the bank. He has spent his whole career on the subject.

Interesting.

 

[REF1]

I read some good stuff, and found out about the ash trapper, which is a pretty cool device, and will come in handy for my new stove, which doesn't have an ash pan.

 

[cycloxer]

I get what he is saying about thermometers. I also like looking at the temp # to better help me judge what I am seeing inside the box. I can see how they could be misused.

 

[begreen]

I have a world of respect for JG and have learned a great deal from his publications and website. But I disagree on the subject of thermometers. Apparently so do some stove makers. Jotul specifies even where to put the thermometer. VC used to include a thermometer with the stove.

I've only had a flue thermometer in the past few years. It's a helpful instrument and has demonstrated nicely how efficiently the stove is working. But day-to-day I still rely on the stovetop thermometer to watch how hot the stove is. I don't get my heat from the flue, I get it from the stove. It alerts me quickly when

 

[REF1]

Because I've always used thermometers, if only for precautionary measures of over-firing, I never did take a look at the article in question. It's hardly an article:

"Do you need a flue pipe or stove thermometer?

We don't think so.

We don't recommend the use of flue pipe thermometers on modern wood stoves that have glass doors with airwash (so they stay fairly clear). Your best indication of how the fire is doing is by looking at it.

It turns out that there is no correct operating temperature for wood stoves because their output is modulated to provide enough heat for the conditions. So, in cold winter weather the temperature will be higher than in the fall when the heating load is lower.

The correspondence we see from visitors to woodheat.org convinces us that thermometers cause more confusion than clarity. People try to make their stove operation conform to the markings on the dial of a cheap thermometer or to the recommendations of someone who really doesn't know much about wood heating.

As we point out in our tips section, the fuel should be flaming brightly until it is reduced to coals, regardless of measured temperature. Bright flames mean the wood is never allowed to smolder. That looks after the low end of the temperature range.

At the high end, once a fire has reached full intensity after loading with the firebox full of flames, avoid letting it rage with the air control fully open for more than a few minutes. In very cold weather, you can run the stove hot, at say 2/3rds of max without doing any damage. That looks after the high end.

And that's all you need to know."


From a practical point of view, he seems to cover his bases. I reckon if someone followed this for a non cat stove he'd be okay.

 

[begreen]

Unfortunately that doesn't help the new wood burner that may need a season of practice with the new stove to really get to know his wood quality and stove burning behavior. It helps when I can see that I "think" the stove should be burning hotter, and then check and see that it's cooking along at 650-700 degrees. We had an case of exactly this issue with a T6 in Wyom. this year. Conversely, it is good to know when you think you have a good blaze going and then find the thermometer showing with a cooler stove top, that the wood burning is not quite as dry as one thought it was. Eyeballs are good, so is instrumentation.

 

[hearthstoneheat]

Unfortunately that doesn't help the new wood burner that may need a season of practice with the new stove to really get to know his wood quality and stove burning behavior. It helps when I can see that I "think" the stove should be burning hotter, and then check and see that it's cooking along at 650-700 degrees. We had an case of exactly this issue with a T6 in Wyom. this year. Conversely, it is good to know when you think you have a good blaze going and then find the thermometer showing with a cooler stove top, that the wood burning is not quite as dry as one thought it was. Eyeballs are good, so is instrumentation.

Nicely stated.

 

[REF1]

I don't know if the gentleman uses a moisture meter, but he obviously advocates seasoned dry wood. Most people will end up with thermometers regardless of the article, because they are inexpensive, and easy to use.

 

[madrone]

I don't use a thermometer, moisture sensor, or OAK, but see why others do. I like the woodheat site a lot, but I'm always puzzled by taking such a firm stand on things that don't seem like they need it.

 

[gibson]

Are we really hand-wringing about a $10-20 thermometer on a $1000-3000 heater? Do you need one? No. Is it foolish not to have one? Yes. Too many variables with wood heat. I wouldn't have one if they cost $200, but for a few bucks, really?

 

['bert]

I think that the interweb is a great thing. It allows all of us to read information from many sources. Read allot and find out what works for your situation. Every ones wood supply, air supply, stove, stack, etc, etc. are not the same. Review all the information that is available and try all the options that seem safe and reasonable to you. If it were not for different opinions we would only require one website for each subject. It is up to each of use to filter all info offered to us with common sense.

Most importantly report back what works for your situation so that others can give it a try. For "me" I have learned so much here that has worked for me, that I really do not feel a need to check other websites for information on heating with wood. OTOH the pool information here kinda sucks, so for that I go to another website.

Open minds people, open minds.

'bert

 

[precaud]

Are we really hand-wringing about a $10-20 thermometer on a $1000-3000 heater? Do you need one? No. Is it foolish not to have one? Yes. Too many variables with wood heat. I wouldn't have one if they cost $200, but for a few bucks, really?

Agreed. Unless I'm running an experiment, I don't see a reason for having one on the stove, so I agree with JG's point there. I do like to have one on the pipe, though. Once you have learned how to operate your stove, getting chimney temps up to establish the draft is a necessary condition for a stable burn. It's kinda like an oil pressure gauge on an engine.

 

[Bobbin]

While I don't rely entirely on the stovetop thermometer with our Fireview, it sure is handy to give my "visual" assessment of the fire a "second"! For whatever reason, some fires just take a bit longer to get up to the magic temperature for combustor engagement. This is my first year burning the (windowless) Classic out in my studio and to be frank, I'd be at a real disadvantage without the stovetop thermometer. I clearly need to perfect the "hovering hand over soapstone" to literally get a better "feel" for how hot is hot enough to engage the combustor on that stove. You definitely do get a "feel" for how your stove works and the routine cycle of the burn, but that takes time and experience.

But I DO understand why a really experienced wood burner might feel a thermometer is not necessary equipment.

 

[BrotherBart]

Oh heck. Just spit on the stove and judge by the sizzle. :lol:

 

[Backwoods Savage]

I burned wood for about 50 years before having a stove thermometer. I'd never even thought about one. When I bought our last new stove a thermometer came with it. I now have two of them; one for stove top and one for flue. Can I run the stove without them? Well, I see no reason why I could not; after all, I have had a few fires without thermometers. However, now that I use them I find them very useful.

My main point here is that too many times people will carry on with their information about all their knowledge that they've received for upmteen years and think that is the only way. It is not. Progress is made and some things change for the better. I do not doubt for a minute that man has lots of knowledge. I also do not doubt for a minute that he is wrong on a few things....the same way that I am wrong about a few things. And yes, I have picked up knowledge here in hearth.com and I don't think there are too many on this forum who has burned wood longer than we have. Let's keep on teaching and keep on learning, but we still have to learn how to pick out the good from the bad.

 

[begreen]

While I don't rely entirely on the stovetop thermometer with our Fireview, it sure is handy to give my "visual" assessment of the fire a "second"! For whatever reason, some fires just take a bit longer to get up to the magic temperature for combustor engagement. This is my first year burning the (windowless) Classic out in my studio and to be frank, I'd be at a real disadvantage without the stovetop thermometer. I clearly need to perfect the "hovering hand over soapstone" to literally get a better "feel" for how hot is hot enough to engage the combustor on that stove. You definitely do get a "feel" for how your stove works and the routine cycle of the burn, but that takes time and experience.

But I DO understand why a really experienced wood burner might feel a thermometer is not necessary equipment.

Actually you bring up a good point. A thermometer is really handy on stoves without door glass. When running the old 602 I have to watch it pretty closely. That stove likes to zip up to hot like a greyhound out of the chute.