Woodstock Soapstone takes on the industry variability study

[John Ackerly]

I"m sure some of you have seen this blog I wrote about Tom Morrissey's new paper that challenges the notion that there is always a high degree of variability when testing stoves with cribwood. A lot of HPBA's legal strategy on the NSPS rests on the variability study written by Curkeet & Ferguson. Before folks pounce on us - we think having separate emissions standards for cats, non-cats and pellet stoves makes more sense than to clump them all into one category. Maybe cat stoves could be held to 1.3 grams an hour in 5 years, and maybe even with cord wood. But generally, we think the EPA should stick to cribwood for certification tests and 5 years from now - or in the next NSPS, switch to cord wood. 1.3 is far too strict for non-cats at this point.

Tom's paper is important regardless and maybe the best lesson is that the hearth community should be a little more cautious in jumping on the bandwagon behind a single industry funded study. The variability report has plenty of good observations, but it just analyzes one very limited data base and there are plenty of others that can yield very different conclusions. Here is our blog with a link to Tom's paper: http://forgreenheat.blogspot.com/2014/08/new-paper-undermines-stove-industry.html

 

[begreen]

Agreed. It will be easier for some companies than others. To redesign and retool a cast iron or soapstone line though doesn't sound trivial, especially when a company has a line of 7 or more stoves. And there is no guarantee that the stove(s) will work well or stand up over time. And as we have discussed, new stove designs probably won't solve many major pollution problems because the sources of these emissions are not being replaced or shut down. (smoke dragons, fireplaces, open burning). And poor burning practices, especially unseasoned wood burning, are not being addressed.

That said, the paper has a point when Woodstock can make a $2000 3 cu ft stove that passes the test. I wonder what the total R&D cost was? And that is just one stove. Lopi did it before them with the Cape Cod. However, we lack a lot of real world data on how these stoves perform in the real world in a variety of environments over time. The Cape Cod by reports here got off to a shaky start.The Ideal Steel beta fared better but the beta tests were all New England based and mostly late winter. We need a few seasons on these stoves and they should be retested with a few years wear and tear on them. That would provide some good data to make better decisions.

 

[NE WOOD BURNER]

So much discussion! hats off to those that challenge for the sake of the industry that they have chosen for their prosperity.

Fuel quality appears to be the main variable that sticks out with all the air quality testing/discussion. I think this is across the board OWB, IDWB, cat stoves and non cat stoves.

Education on the benefits of dry wood and moisture content would help across the board.

in the boiler room first recommendation to all new posters is usually get your wood put up so that you are ready. - this is very good advice

In my area there is a retailer of wood stoves that also has a kiln and cordwood business. one compliments the other- very good for industry
The customers of theirs I know are extremely satisfied with their new stoves and are sold on CSKD and delivered cordwood. This small group I know are lifelong wood burners and just now seeing that the performance of wood burning equipment is multiplied with truly dry wood.

So I think the education is important to new wood burners and to existing wood burners as well.

 

[John Ackerly]

I think Woodstock Soapstone's R&D and production costs were under $150,000. Morrissey has calculated all of that and that is another thing where he is standing up the industry which usually cites figures around $350,000. And yes, cast iron stoves will be more.

So much talk about educating consumers as the solution. If you have a technology on the market that takes that much education to properly use, you are already way behind the curve. If we want wood stoves to really take off again, we can't say that we just need to invest in more education. $10 billion a year may not even do the trick, but the fact is that lots of education already goes on, and there is not much more money for it, and we still have a huge problem. Pellet stoves are a great example of a technology that doesn't need as much education to run. Granted, probably about half of pellet stove owners don't clean their stove often enough. But the emission implications aren't nearly as bad if you don't run them properly.

I think the biggest breakthrough here is the amazing test results that show the Ideal Steel performed as well with cord wood as with crib wood. Next, I suspect they will be able to show that the impact of unseasoned wood is not nearly as bad in hybrids as it is in non-cats. But this takes us back to operators having enough education to run the catalytic stoves well enough to keep them running clean ….

 

[Nick Mystic]

What clean burning comes down to in many cases is how diligent a person is in maintaining a seasoned supply of wood. I suspect if we conducted an accurate poll of hearth.com members regarding their wood storage/burning practices we would find a great many do not follow the recommended procedure of seasoning wood until it is below 20% moisture content. When you consider that the members of this forum by their very participation likely represent a more highly educated and dedicated wood burning group than the average wood burner it is highly probable that poor burning practices are the norm rather than the exception. As is typical of government the response to this is to pass some sort of regulation that is easier to enforce than to actually attack the real problem, which is more difficult. After all, in America we believe in the individual's right to do as he or she pleases more than we believe in the right of the general population to be protected from other peoples ignorant or misguided behavior.

 

[NE WOOD BURNER]

I learned to burn wood from my first grade teacher and 45 year 4-H leader.
The main difference, if you are comparing pellets to wood is the quality of the fuel.

Pellets can be made to be a very consistent fuel source.
Cord wood can not. Based on the users species and moisture content of the wood.

The education needs to be there. I have bought and sold many wood stoves in my life. The used cat stoves I have picked up for free have no cat left in them. they where removed to facilitate the burning of green wood!
This is just a narrow sampling of a 45 year test!

 

[John Ackerly]

As is typical of government the response to this is to pass some sort of regulation that is easier to enforce than to actually attack the real problem, which is more difficult. After all, in America we believe in the individual's right to do as he or she pleases more than we believe in the right of the general population to be protected from other peoples ignorant or misguided behavior.

How true. Folks living downwind of outdoor wood boilers often have very little recourse. In terms of firewood, the government has not really tried any regulations around firewood other than to stop spread of invasive species. Some states require that firewood advertised as seasoned actually be seasoned and that may have a little bit of effect and once and while you hear of an enforcement action. Regulating firewood has been done pretty successfully in much of Europe and Australia either by government or trade associations or "green label" initiatives that result in far more people getting dry firewood. It doesn't completely solve the problem, but if you can solve half of it, that is a huge improvement. I had hoped that the National Firewood Association in the US would go that route but they are young and as of yet, they have not shown any movement in that direction. They do lots of good education though.

 

[mellow]

Wood selling regulations would be where you would get the most "bang for the buck" when it comes to burning cleaner, even old smoke dragons burn cleaner using proper seasoned wood and a well placed baffle. Your average person buying wood pellets doesn't care how they are made, as long as they burn they are happy and I would venture to say that 98% of wood pellet burning people do not make their own pellets hence why they burn cleaner because the person manufacturing them is held to a standard.

As I drive by landscape companies where I see whole logs one week and the next week piles of "seasoned" split wood for sale I can't help but think this issue will not be fixed without some kind of enforcement at the wood selling level (people cutting their own would be exempted).

 

[NE WOOD BURNER]

Wood selling regulations would be where you would get the most "bang for the buck" when it comes to burning cleaner

disagree again. no more regulations are needed!
It is the end user that controls the quality of fuel and operation variables of their wood heating appliances.
Education is really about the process, storage and final use of cordwood. all cordwood piles are rotated constantly if you know your wood.
The appliance will always be modified or replaced if the end user can not make it burn the stock of wood on hand! See it all the time.
If most people were educated to the true cost of burning wood, I think for many the pellet appliance is a better option for them.
But say no to more regulations.
Heading to the country store to chew the fat! Maybe will change the subject around today. I will just say when the cordwood trucks pass by :"oh that's great! someone is getting ahead on next years wood! so good to see Mr.Jones finally get ahead of his wood pile"
There is only one supplier in my area that can deliver this years wood!
much more if you burn pellets!

 

[begreen]

wood dryness regulation is covered in depth already in this thread:
https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/regulation-on-seasoned-wood-guarantee-weigh-in-gang.129284/

 

[John Ackerly]

disagree again. no more regulations are needed!

For better or worse, I think regulations are the only way to get ahead in this day and age - especially when you are in business of making fires in people's living rooms. One reason wood and pellet heat have got left in the dust by all this fossil fuel heating is that they are regulated to the hilt. And when you can regulate consistency of your fuel, which is far easier with liquid fuel but still complex, you can build appliances to that fuel specification and get far cleaner results. And you can make it easier and cheaper to build an appliance if you don't have to build it to accept a wide variety of fuel characteristics. I think we are now laying groundwork for a real resurgence of wood heating in the US, and to get there we need to build confidence in all sorts of government agencies. Otherwise, we may be stuck in heating around 2-3 million homes, because a variety of regulations and attitudes will keep us in check.