:( yet another sad Heatilator story

[ElizabethSuperAwesome]

Ugh this is embarrassing but I can't figure out how to insert a line break in this editor? Return does nothing. Sorry for the long form paragraph Hi, my name is Elizabeth, and I apologize in advance for not knowing the technical terms for some of this stuff. I've done as much research as I could over the internet but its pretty confusing for someone with no background in masonry or constructions. And yes I read the rule about no specific DIY instructions. I'm not asking for instructions, just for someone to paint me a picture of how bleak my situation is.

So I'm renting this house and it is from the 1930s and it was this ENORMOUS fireplace. I'll include a picture, but it seriously takes up the entire wall. It's an exterior wall. The chimney goes really high up into the air outside, without going through any more stories, and it has a cap thing on top, I assume to keep birds and rain out? It is anchored to the roof with a thick cable.Inside the fireplace itself is a very gross, rusted out metal insert thing which I believe, based on my Googling, is a Heatilator or similar. This theory is supported by the presence of some intentionally missing bricks along the floor line, and some up above, I assume these were the "in" and "out" vents for the airflow which was supposed to go behind and around the firebox?

Since the top of the firebox and the damper and all the upper mechanism is rusted all to hell, I'm guessing that smoke/C02 can also come out of those vents now. There is some soot on the bricks above the vents to support this theory. Inside the fireplace, there is the old rusted lever which originally controlled the damper and now isn't even really attached to anything, it's just hanging there. There is also a long steel cord, and a place to anchor the cord. I believe this controls a SECONDARY damper, one that was installed possibly to compensate for the original one being rusted through? When I pull it, I can hear a "ch-chunk!" noise from way up in the top of the chimney, and the same when I let it go, so I think this secondary damper is working just fine.

We lit a fire in the fireplace only once, and it seemed to *sort of* work. A little bit of smoke came out the vents in the front, just like I thought it would, but probably 90% of the smoke went out the chimney- I went outside to check. It's possible that if I had let the fire go longer, and really get going, all the smoke would have gone out the chimney, but it set off the fire alarm and I chickened out and put it out.

From what I have read, it seems like these old Heatilators are pretty common, and so is the problem I am having with them. I am getting a lot of conflicting information about what would need to be done, though. Some people say, "oh, just cut it out yourself with a Sawzall" (which I have!) "and stick a wood-burning insert in there, and you'll be fine" but some people say it needs to be "torched" out and that any wood-burning insert would require the flue itself to be re-done? Some people say it's incredibly dangerous to try and pull out an old Heatilator yourself because some of the flue bricks might be resting on it. Some people say it's easy and you can just rip it out and build a new hearth yourself with firebrick and no masonry experience. That doesn't sound accurate to me?Anyway, we're renting the house, and our landlord is a cheapskate, so probably we won't be able to hire a contractor. I'll probably end up just having to put flowers or something in there, which is *such* a pity because the fireplace is gorgeous and awesome and I already have a ton of firewood.

I read that you have a rule against DIY requests, so I'm not asking for instructions on how to do this project myself, which I probably won't do anyway, because it sounds terrifying. I guess I'm hoping against hope that someone on here can clarify for me- HOW dangerous is it to rip out a metal insert like this yourself?Can a wood-burning insert just be inserted as-is into the chimney that would be left after an insert is removed? The pipe thing on top could just go up the flue without any added insulation or anything? That sounds insane to me, but I don't know how flues work. Are there different kinds of chimneys, some that would require additional insulation, and some that wouldn't? Someone mentioned pre-fab chimneys, and I don't know what that is. If somehow we got the insert out, how would I be able to tell, from looking at the inside of the chimney, whether or not it is the sort of chimney that it is safe to use a wood stove in?It's totally dangerous for me to use this fireplace as it is, right? Like even though most of the smoke went out the chimney, I still feel like, since part of it is damaged, that could be dangerous. What if there was some sort of insulation in-between the insert and the brick that is now exposed to flames and is flammable and catches the whole damn chimney on fire? Is that possible? Could something on the inside be flammable? Probably, huh?

This is the most important question:-->If I get a chimneysweep to come and clean the flue out (I have a Groupon) and then I light a fire again, and leave it going a little longer, and all the smoke DOES indeed go up the chimney, and the fire alarm and C02 detectors do not go off- would that then mean that this fireplace is then safe to use as-is, or is it likely still quite dangerous? Is it still a risk for some other dangerous thing like a chimney fire or collapsing in on itself or something simply because of the presence of this rusted-out ancient machinery? I can't just ignore it, can I? <---And what would you do? Assume for the purposes of this discussion that you are an impoverished but creative and resourceful young family who is worried about being very cold in the Oregon winter this year Would you just invest in some blankets? Have I a recourse? How did it get to be 10:30 and I'm in a fireplace forum? How did I get here? Anyway any further light you could shed on this subject would be lovely. Thanks for your time, I know this was longwinded and rambling. Sorry. <3 Elizabeth

 

[ElizabethSuperAwesome]

I should note, in case any of you are worried about us not getting our deposit back, since this is a rental, that the landlord doesn't care what we do as long as we don't ask her to pay for anything, and she plans on knocking the house over and building condos as soon as possible, so that's not a concern. I am concerned about, you know, dying in my sleep, though. From C02/fire.

 

[begreen]

Greetings. I added some paragraph spacing, not sure why you could not. Getting a certified set of eyes on the fireplace is a good idea. We can't assess its condition remotely. The second damper is likely at the chimney top and must be open or smoke will back up, Likewise the lower damper must be open.

If the sweep finds that the heatilator is rusted out and some of the exchange tubes are compromised then one option would be installing an insert with a full stainless liner. This would cost about $1500-2000 with a self install. A freestanding stove could be put on the hearth, but it would need to be rear-exit which means a cast iron stove.

 

[ElizabethSuperAwesome]

Greetings. I added some paragraph spacing, not sure why you could not. Getting a certified set of eyes on the fireplace is a good idea. We can't assess its condition remotely. The second damper is likely at the chimney top and must be open or smoke will back up, Likewise the lower damper must be open.

If the sweep finds that the heatilator is rusted out and some of the exchange tubes are compromised then one option would be installing an insert with a full stainless liner. This would cost about $1500-2000 with a self install. A freestanding stove could be put on the hearth, but it would need to be rear-exit which means a cast iron stove.

thanks for responding and also thanks for fixing my paragraph spacing! i don't know why i can't add in paragraph spacing, either. i'm using a macbook, idk if that is relevant. okay, so what we know so far is that upper damper works, and the bottom damper doesn't work but is stuck in the open position. and that fixing it would be expensive. thank you!

 

[ElizabethSuperAwesome]

Greetings. I added some paragraph spacing, not sure why you could not. Getting a certified set of eyes on the fireplace is a good idea. We can't assess its condition remotely. The second damper is likely at the chimney top and must be open or smoke will back up, Likewise the lower damper must be open.

If the sweep finds that the heatilator is rusted out and some of the exchange tubes are compromised then one option would be installing an insert with a full stainless liner. This would cost about $1500-2000 with a self install. A freestanding stove could be put on the hearth, but it would need to be rear-exit which means a cast iron stove.

so it would have to be a stove like the second one in this picture, not like the first one? i guess that's what rear-exit means? http://www.firesonline.co.uk/acatalog/yeoman-balanced-flue-.jpg would something like this work? i don't see a pipe coming out of the top, so i assume it is rear exit, but maybe there is a third kind i am unaware of? and the main thing i would have to look out for in a used cast iron wood stove would be cracks, right? cracks = very bad?(broken link removed to http://portland.craigslist.org/clk/hsh/4600335484.html)

 

[Owen1508]

Getting a certified set of eyes on the fireplace is a good idea. We can't assess its condition remotely. .

Getting a chimney sweep to clean and look at what you have would be the first step. From there you can find out your options.

 

[EatenByLimestone]

+1 on getting the sweep out 1st. I'd hate to see you spend lots of cash and not be able to use a stove.

Since its a rental I'd be leery of putting much money into it. It seems like a place a pellet stove might be a good fit since you don't need to buy a chimney liner. You can vent out the closest wall.

 

[SteveKG]

I second the fact that the upper "damper" is what you have with the cable/chain thing. These are metal flaps that close off the top of the chimney when the chimney is not in use. Keep if full open when in use. Obviously, you don't want to close it off until the coals have all burned out and no CO is being generated any more. They keep rain and animals out of the chimney when closed.

Since you are renting, I would be leery of putting more than a little money into this project. You are already probably leery of this yourselves. Unless you decide to buy a stove that you would plan to take with you when you leave or when the owner kicks you out to level the house. This is what I did way back when: bought a stove and took it when I left. Before you do too much planning on that, though, you need to determine whether the existing chimney/stove pipe will be easily [and not too expensively] connectable to a different stove. Adding different stovepipe and stovepipe parts can exceed the cost of a stove itself.

But you are right to want to check this thing out. You do not want to use it until someone can look the entire system over from the chimney top to the insert and give you a report. It might be useable with a few hundred dollars worth of parts and labor. But it might be completely shot. Repairing the damper might be something as simple as re-attaching the handle to the damper with a bolt and nut. Or, part of the damper may have been rusted and then broken off. Even then, it might be a small welding job.

 

[Hogwildz]

My money is on the fact that the upper damper is there because the lower one doesn't work.
Shame to put a good bit of money into a place that isn't yours.
And then you have to make sure the owner is cool with your plans.
Once you cut at the existing fireplace box for an insert & liner to fit, the fireplace is useless unless the insert is left installed, or another should be installed to replace the one you have installed if you decide to take the insert with you if/when you move out. Otherwise the owner will have to close off the fireplace so the next renters don't try and start a fire in it unknowing of what was done prior to them moving in. Or the owner at very least would need to explain that the fireplace is not operable to the next renter.