Catalyst vs non-catalyst (I am new to this amazing forum)

[bogydave]

I would price the replacement element for the cat before I bought one. that being said, I would not buy one because it is one more thing to deal with. and eventually it is another expense when it wears out---not sure how long that is but cats on cars are expensive---not sure how much stove cats are thought.

Good point but;
I looked at it from a "long term investment" view.

At about $200 - $250 per cord of fire wood. If I burn 40% less wood with a cat.
Say I burn 6 cords instead of 10 cords per year. (which I'm finding to be pretty close)
Roughly $1000 dollars saved on wood + less work & $$ savings on woodcutting tools & wood hauler fuel.

Don't know what a new combustor costs for the BK , but I think it is less than $1000.
Then add in Rebates & tax credits ($$$ off the cost of the stove). (brings a $2500 stove down to roughly $1k)
Burning a catalytic may be quit a bit cheaper.
& keep paying you back every year for a long time. (Long term $$ savings)

But I agree, I should have found out the cost of a new cat combustor,( saw some on E-bay a few years ago
but don't remember how much$$.) for my stove.
Might should get one now, before they don't make them for my model anymore, I hear reports of catalytics lasting many years if
operate properly.

I'm with N-60, I get long burn times with spruce, longer with birch. & I get HEAT.
The HEAT is important when it's cold.
Priceless!!

One more thing,
the pipe going out of the top of my stove is not hot unless I'm bypassing the cat.
I can touch it (for about a second not get burned) when the cat temp is almost pegged & just in front of the
glass on the door will toast marshmellows
Burn them if you're no careful
This means the heat is staying/going into the house, very little going up the stack.

 

[BrowningBAR]

I would price the replacement element for the cat before I bought one. that being said, I would not buy one because it is one more thing to deal with. and eventually it is another expense when it wears out---not sure how long that is but cats on cars are expensive---not sure how much stove cats are thought.

I am currently running a cat and non-cat stove.

Cat stove will need a new catalytic combustor at some point (and maybe catalytic assembly depending the setup of each stove brand).
Non-cat stove will need new burn tubes and baffle at some point.

 

[Beetle-Kill]

I hate to be a buzzkill, but the OP-hotprinter- , never stated the available wood source. A non-cat will be a little more forgiving with a higher moisture content fuel source, correct? What is he/she planning on burning?

 

[henkmeuzelaar]

"A non-cat will be a little more forgiving with a higher moisture content fuel source, correct?"

Hmmm, my intuition says otherwise. Higher moisture content would tend to produce slower, lower temp burns with higher levels of carbon monoxide, creosote, soot and other priducts of incomplete combustion. The cat should be great help under these conditions.

Can you elaborate on your thinking?

 

[SolarAndWood]

The cat should be great help under these conditions.

Can you elaborate on your thinking?

Burning less than ideal wood is a PIA in any stove. If you load the stove with wet wood, get it burning, set the tstat and go, the cat will likely go inactive, you will gunk up your pipe and have no heat. That is exactly what the previous owners of my stove did. It arrived full of creosote and they complained of no heat. Even when I am burning shorties from this past Spring, I need to burn them off good and hot for a while before closing the bypass or I gunk up the cap especially when its cold and windy.

On the other hand, we can stuff just about anything in the old smoke dragon in the camp and get away with it. Just consumes several times the amount of wood for the same amount of heat.

 

[Patapsco Mike]

Cat stoves are great because burning less wood means less wear and tear on my my chainsaw, my splitter, and most importantly- my back. Also fewer trips to the woodpile... It truly shines during shoulder season when the thermostat lets me dial the heat down and get ridiculously long burn times.

People say the cats are a pain, but I'd rather deal with a cat every few years than worry about banging my burn tubes (or a baffle) every time I put a big log in or try to pack the stove really full. The inside of my BK is bullet-proof. There is nothing in there I need to worry about damaging unless I do something monumentally stupid.

I've owned quite a few stoves, and none could hold a candle to my Blaze King Princess. It is a remarkable to be able to be away from my house for 12-15 hours and come home to a hot stove that I can just throw a few more logs into. I wouldn't trade mine for anything (except maybe the King if I could get an 8" pipe in my chimney).

 

[raybonz]

I would price the replacement element for the cat before I bought one. that being said, I would not buy one because it is one more thing to deal with. and eventually it is another expense when it wears out---not sure how long that is but cats on cars are expensive---not sure how much stove cats are thought.

When I need a 12-15hr burn on spruce and pine and can rely on that for 5yrs now @ 8-10 months 24/7 a year without even removing the CAT and still going strong. House is 2140sq ft. Just got out of -40 weather and was able to keep the OIL off as was home recovering from surgery feeding the stove @ 8hr intervals with the BK princess. I go through about 6-8 cord a year of soft wood. Thats most peoples shoulder season crap. Yes, I can put a price on that..... PRICELESS!
CHEERS!

Wow that's impressive! I only use white pine and only if starting a fire.. I wouldn't exactly call that cat stove high maintenance!

Ray

 

[raybonz]

shoulder season crap? what's that supposed to mean?

Shoulder season is early fall and spring when it's too warm to run the stove 24/7 many use softwoods such as pine because it burns hot and fast.. He is heating his home in a very cold climate 24/7 with softwood... Very impressive indeed..

Ray

 

[Backwoods Savage]

I've made a small fortune over the years servicing catalytic stoves. I myself have a P.E. Vista I've been happy with for 5 years. It's simple , efficient, durable. I spend too much time on other people's gear to want to go home and fix my own. I'm familiar with Harmon, good stove. Still, why have moving parts at all? Top load is nice, but trouble free burning and a good night's sleep are better. You are not in the recreational burning catagory, I guess. Consider going with the sure thing.
I've also got an old V.C. defiant in the house that I love, sounds like you're moving on from that kind of thing though. Good luck, and Happy Heating!!

While it is true there were problems with some cat stoves several years ago I doubt you'll find that the case today. Glad you made a small fortune and can now run down all cat stoves based on that. You certainly will not do much convincing when you feel the way you do. When someone says to me they made a small fortune on someone else's bad luck or whatever, I always question how that fortune was really made. Sorry, but showing respect will get your farther in this world.

And I have no idea how you would make a wood burning stove with no moving parts. How else could you open and close the draft? How would you be able to load wood?

 

[henkmeuzelaar]

The cat should be great help under these conditions.

Can you elaborate on your thinking?

Burning less than ideal wood is a PIA in any stove. If you load the stove with wet wood, get it burning, set the tstat and go, the cat will likely go inactive, you will gunk up your pipe and have no heat. That is exactly what the previous owners of my stove did. It arrived full of creosote and they complained of no heat. Even when I am burning shorties from this past Spring, I need to burn them off good and hot for a while before closing the bypass or I gunk up the cap especially when its cold and windy.

On the other hand, we can stuff just about anything in the old smoke dragon in the camp and get away with it. Just consumes several times the amount of wood for the same amount of heat.

Thanks for the informative response. No disagreement with those scenarios.

However, why not get the cat going with a dry load ( I seem to remember our old BlazeKing cat taking off around 500 F; at least when it was still relatively new), wait till you have a nice bed of glowing coals and then quickly add a less well-conditioned load?

That way you should be able to still maximize your heat production (from relatively wet wood, if that is all you have) while reducing creosote deposition and the emission of CO, soot and VOCs.

 

[Backwoods Savage]

The cat should be great help under these conditions.

Can you elaborate on your thinking?

Burning less than ideal wood is a PIA in any stove. If you load the stove with wet wood, get it burning, set the tstat and go, the cat will likely go inactive, you will gunk up your pipe and have no heat. That is exactly what the previous owners of my stove did. It arrived full of creosote and they complained of no heat. Even when I am burning shorties from this past Spring, I need to burn them off good and hot for a while before closing the bypass or I gunk up the cap especially when its cold and windy.

On the other hand, we can stuff just about anything in the old smoke dragon in the camp and get away with it. Just consumes several times the amount of wood for the same amount of heat.

Thanks for the informative response. No disagreement with those scenarios.

However, why not get the cat going with a dry load ( I seem to remember our old BlazeKing cat taking off around 500 F; at least when it was still relatively new), wait till you have a nice bed of glowing coals and then quickly add a less well-conditioned load?

That way you should be able to still maximize your heat production (from relatively wet wood, if that is all you have) while reducing creosote deposition and the emission of CO, soot and VOCs.

Remember that moisture is the worst thing for the cat! If you do put in some wet wood on a hot fire, that moisture still has to evaporate. If it goes through the cat, that is not good and you may as well not have one.

All in all, fighting with wet wood is one of the worst problems folks have and I am amazed at some of the tricks they try to use. There is only one good answer and that is dry wood. Most folks also who fight with this wet wood problem still do not think about next year and the year after. If you have poor fuel now, then plan on what you will be burning in the future and do not wait. Get it now!

 

[Adios Pantalones]

Good point but;
I looked at it from a "long term investment" view.

At about $200 - $250 per cord of fire wood. If I burn 40% less wood with a cat.
Say I burn 6 cords instead of 10 cords per year. (which I'm finding to be pretty close)
Roughly $1000 dollars saved on wood + less work & $$ savings on woodcutting tools & wood hauler fuel.

Don't know what a new combustor costs for the BK , but I think it is less than $1000.
Then add in Rebates & tax credits ($$$ off the cost of the stove). (brings a $2500 stove down to roughly $1k)
Burning a catalytic may be quit a bit cheaper.
& keep paying you back every year for a long time. (Long term $$ savings)

How do you figure you'd burn 40% less wood with a cat???
Why do you think you can't get a rebate on a stove with secondary burn???

A few weird assumptions here.

 

[Backwoods Savage]

I agree. The cat will save a lot on wood compared to the old stoves but won't be 40% better than a non-cat stove.

 

[SolarAndWood]

The cat should be great help under these conditions.

Can you elaborate on your thinking?

Burning less than ideal wood is a PIA in any stove. If you load the stove with wet wood, get it burning, set the tstat and go, the cat will likely go inactive, you will gunk up your pipe and have no heat. That is exactly what the previous owners of my stove did. It arrived full of creosote and they complained of no heat. Even when I am burning shorties from this past Spring, I need to burn them off good and hot for a while before closing the bypass or I gunk up the cap especially when its cold and windy.

On the other hand, we can stuff just about anything in the old smoke dragon in the camp and get away with it. Just consumes several times the amount of wood for the same amount of heat.

Thanks for the informative response. No disagreement with those scenarios.

However, why not get the cat going with a dry load ( I seem to remember our old BlazeKing cat taking off around 500 F; at least when it was still relatively new), wait till you have a nice bed of glowing coals and then quickly add a less well-conditioned load?

That way you should be able to still maximize your heat production (from relatively wet wood, if that is all you have) while reducing creosote deposition and the emission of CO, soot and VOCs.

I'm not saying you can't get it to burn, can't get the cat to light off and that it won't make heat. And, if you cook the less than ideal stuff long enough with the bypass open you will get the excess moisture out. But, the stove still doesn't burn right and you will gunk up your cap if not the pipe too. I wouldn't want a cat stove if all I had was relatively wet wood.

 

[bogydave]

Good point but;
I looked at it from a "long term investment" view.

At about $200 - $250 per cord of fire wood. If I burn 40% less wood with a cat.
Say I burn 6 cords instead of 10 cords per year. (which I'm finding to be pretty close)
Roughly $1000 dollars saved on wood + less work & $$ savings on woodcutting tools & wood hauler fuel.

Don't know what a new combustor costs for the BK , but I think it is less than $1000.
Then add in Rebates & tax credits ($$$ off the cost of the stove). (brings a $2500 stove down to roughly $1k)
Burning a catalytic may be quit a bit cheaper.
& keep paying you back every year for a long time. (Long term $$ savings)

How do you figure you'd burn 40% less wood with a cat???
Why do you think you can't get a rebate on a stove with secondary burn???

A few weird assumptions here.

Not all assumptions, I was referring to my upgrade: My old stove vs my new stove:
No exact figures, but I'm burning quit a bit less wood with the new stove.
I get twice or more longer burn times with the new stove the house is
warmer than with my old ,non cat, 1982 BK woodstove. (Facts)
Cat is more energy efficient. Less heat up the stack.
I believe that the catalytic stoves have the highest efficiency rating.
My new Catalytic stove is rated 42% more efficient than my old stove,
my math says 40% less wood for same heat, & I know I was burning 10 cords/yr with the old stove.
I've burned roughly 3 cords so far this year & am a little more than 1/2 way
thru burning season (fact). Approx 4 cords less for the year. (maybe more)
Comparisons are: my old BK vs my new Catalytic BK.

There are many good stoves out there & maybe many rebates I don't claim to know about any
of them but the ones I've got with my BK KEJ1107.
I know I"m very happy with it, it burns less wood & gives off more heat, burns cleaner than my old stove.
Other stoves may be as good, but I can only share a truthful opinion about my woodstove experience.
Like we know; like other things, everybody has an opinion, I shared some facts about my experience only.
The computer I used in 1982 has been upgrade also, don't know if it's by 40%, probably more LOL

http://www.epa.gov/Compliance/resources/publications/monitoring/caa/woodstoves/certifiedwood.pdf


I don't know what all the stoves are that have rebates, mine didn't have a factory rebate but
a federal energy tax deduction if it met certain EPA guidelines (i my have mis-wrote & called it a rebate)
but is was $1200 off the initial cost of the stove which I got off fed tax I owed.)
I know many of the cat stoves had them for federal tax up to $1200 in 2010. My BK met this one.
Many states have some incentives also (tax & home energy upgrade programs)

"hotprinter" has a borough "cash for clunker" for $1500, I don't know what all the stoves he has in his area that
qualify for the rebate, but the BK with a Catalytic is one of them.

 

[HotCoals]

I replaced my 25 yr+ old BK with a new BK with a "cat".
I have trouble on the warmer days above 25°f keeping the house below 74.
I'm heating 2600 +/- sq ft.
It cranks out plenty of heat (more than old stove), burns less wood than the old stove With longer burn times.
We just went trough a week of 45 & up MPH winds, temps 0 to 15, serious chill factors, house stayed warm
(around 70) .
House has been tighten up allot but still has air leaks & I don't plan on doing more sealing, I kinda like getting
fresh air in the house. I believe "too tight" is unhealthy.
Now the wind quit, (-8 °f) & the house is back to the 70s with 10 to 12 + hour burn times & not running on the highest settings.
Good dry wood is important to efficient burning & good heat output.

I don't know much about other stoves, but I know I am impressed with the new Catalytic BK.
I'm guessing 30 to 40% less wood burned, more heat, cleaner burning, long burn times.
The fans (I got the "fan" kit) are a little noisy but they do help.
The "T-stat" works well.
I got the glass door, I believe it puts out more heat but have no stats to prove it. (Looks cool when burning & I can
see the fire to know if I need/want to "tinker" with it)

No creosote issues like the old stove but some of that may be I'm using better seasoned wood.

There was/is a learning curve learning to use the cat, regulating the "low" heat temps, wood placement, T-stat settings etc..
"High heat" output was easy, "crank it up" with a full load N/S wood & stand back.

I learned this year that birch needs to be 2 year seasoned for a perfect burn.
I mean it is a very noticeable difference, "dry vs almost dry" wood, there is a big difference.

My wife learned that you can't stand as close to the new stove as the old one, it will melt/sing synthetics.

Any of the new designed EPA stove are (IMO) better & more efficient than the older ones.
It was well worth the upgrade for us.
I'm a happy BK owner but probably would be a happy with any of the newer stoves (compared to the older stoves)
It cranks out "heat"

Same story here. went 24 years with non-cat BK..put a new cat one in a few months ago..wish i had done it sooner.
The Fed rebate pushed me into it. I had to pay 3200 for the new Bk...but knowing what I know now..I would do it again in a heartbeat.
I'm sure I will save over a 1/3 but not half...but at 70 a FC that will add up fast!
Plus like you said..it's warmer in the house!
2500 sq.ft. here,two story colonial.

 

[bogydave]

Like you:
Yes wish I'd done it sooner but the tax incentives & the energy audit (which the state reimbursed me for) I got
(which helped me find other state, federal programs to help pay for the stove & other upgrades)
all helped push me to upgrade.
I also have a several hundred dollar credit built up with our local gas company.
(budget billing & we're now over paying during the winter months)
So I'm saving money on my energy bill too. (If the money saved is more than I have
in the fire wood). So far I have about $30/cord in my fire wood I have now, so if
I calculated those savings in, I've more than paid for the cost of the new stove in 1 years use.

 

[HotCoals]

I truly believe the best way to use less wood no matter what stove you have is to try to keep your house consistently the same temp.
It takes a lot of btu's to raise your house temp 10-15 degrees...you really have to work a wood stove to do that ...for sure in real cold temps.
I believe a good cat stove will do a better job of keeping those temps uniform...thermostats really come into play here also.

 

[cptoneleg]

I've made a small fortune over the years servicing catalytic stoves. I myself have a P.E. Vista I've been happy with for 5 years. It's simple , efficient, durable. I spend too much time on other people's gear to want to go home and fix my own. I'm familiar with Harmon, good stove. Still, why have moving parts at all? Top load is nice, but trouble free burning and a good night's sleep are better. You are not in the recreational burning category, I guess. Consider going with the sure thing.
I've also got an old V.C. defiant in the house that I love, sounds like you're moving on from that kind of thing though. Good luck, and Happy Heating!!

While it is true there were problems with some cat stoves several years ago I doubt you'll find that the case today. Glad you made a small fortune and can now run down all cat stoves based on that. You certainly will not do much convincing when you feel the way you do. When someone says to me they made a small fortune on someone else's bad luck or whatever, I always question how that fortune was really made. Sorry, but showing respect will get your farther in this world.

And I have no idea how you would make a wood burning stove with no moving parts. How else could you open and close the draft? How would you be able to load wood?[/quote

When I was shopping for a new stove, I had not found this part of the forum, only the stove reviews part, and the cats were bashed pretty bad, I read reviews every day and decieded right away I did not want one. I think differently now as I know you and some others have really good luck with your cat stoves, If you haven't you should write a review on your stove. I am going to wait until end of next season before I write one on my stove. But now I can tell that no matter what stove, the bad reviews were do to the wood or draft.

 

[henkmeuzelaar]

The cat should be great help under these conditions.

Can you elaborate on your thinking?

Burning less than ideal wood is a PIA in any stove. If you load the stove with wet wood, get it burning, set the tstat and go, the cat will likely go inactive, you will gunk up your pipe and have no heat. That is exactly what the previous owners of my stove did. It arrived full of creosote and they complained of no heat. Even when I am burning shorties from this past Spring, I need to burn them off good and hot for a while before closing the bypass or I gunk up the cap especially when its cold and windy.

On the other hand, we can stuff just about anything in the old smoke dragon in the camp and get away with it. Just consumes several times the amount of wood for the same amount of heat.

Thanks for the informative response. No disagreement with those scenarios.

However, why not get the cat going with a dry load ( I seem to remember our old BlazeKing cat taking off around 500 F; at least when it was still relatively new), wait till you have a nice bed of glowing coals and then quickly add a less well-conditioned load?

That way you should be able to still maximize your heat production (from relatively wet wood, if that is all you have) while reducing creosote deposition and the emission of CO, soot and VOCs.

Remember that moisture is the worst thing for the cat! If you do put in some wet wood on a hot fire, that moisture still has to evaporate. If it goes through the cat, that is not good and you may as well not have one.

All in all, fighting with wet wood is one of the worst problems folks have and I am amazed at some of the tricks they try to use. There is only one good answer and that is dry wood. Most folks also who fight with this wet wood problem still do not think about next year and the year after. If you have poor fuel now, then plan on what you will be burning in the future and do not wait. Get it now!

Agree about the problem of "fighting with wet wood". However, if and when a woodstove is being used as a back-up heater (e.g. in case of power outages, running out of gas or oil, or needing to open up a normally unheated basement for family events) one is more likely to find oneself with a rather limited supply of dry splits (perhaps primarily serving decorative purposes) and a whole load of relatively wet logs waiting to be split..... Even then, however, the two-step approach we used in the past (viz. getting stove and catalysts up to temperature with the dry wood before starting to use wetter splits) still allows the catalytic stove to keep working without immediately gunking up the catalytic converter.

Fortunately, I don't think we should be too worried about the effect of moisture on the catalyst. Wood burning produces massive amounts of water vapor via evaporation, desorption or oxidation. So, any catalytic afterburner manufactured for woodstoves better be able to deal with that or there will be problems very soon, even with relatively dry wood. In fact, exposing hot platinum and/or palladium catalyst to steam has long been a favorite regeneration method, especially in case of activity loss through excessive coking.

Henk