Post in 'The Hearth Room - Wood Stoves and Fireplaces' started by BurnIt13, Aug 2, 2012.
Can you post a link to the thread where someone is getting 18-20 hour burns consistently.
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I'm perhaps being a bit hard on the PH. Still sour from the let down. The company specs this stove for a 12 hour burn time. That spec must be proven very very wrong by real users in order for the PH to be a success.
One of the biggest proponents for cat technology was woodstock, they make all kinds of statements in their articles about the long and low burns with steady heat being what you want. I believe in that message.
Highbeam: I'm glad I wasn't around when you learned the truth about Santa Claus!
What do you mean? He isn't real?
I like woodstock. They talk the talk and their small stoves walk the walk but I'm an engineer and things get real black and white sometimes, it is done right or it is done wrong. When a mistake is made it needs to be recognized as the shortcoming it is. WS did their part by announcing the 12 hour burn time.
I can understand where your coming from Highbeam, I was hoping for 18-24 hour burns from the PH and if it did that I would of been one of the first in line. You could probably add 2-3 hours onto that 12-14 hour burn time since Woodstock seems to be a bit conservative with their numbers unlike others. Maybe there's more tweaking to be done with this stove, they are always looking to improve.
Is anyone running cat thermometers on these? It seems like it would be necessary in order to shut it down before the secondary burn starts going.
Good point. It looks pretty hard to install a cat probe in the new Woodstock because of where the cat is located but I remember one guy who installed a thermocouple from the back some how.
Highbeam, I burned my PH at bewteen 350 and 450 degree stovetop temperature at least 90% of last winter, in zone 5, as my sole source of heat in a 3 story home 46 x 32 feet, home with lots of very large windows, many facing North over a lake. Used 16-18 inch long, mostly 6-8 inch diamter ironwood logs. Used 1 1/2 cords. This stove is not a wood hog. Except in very cold weather, I loaded not more than every 12 hours. Every 12 hours is convenient for me. The year before I used 2 cords with a Fireview. My home was much warmer and more comfortable last year. The large windowof the PH puts out lots of heat. The stove is more efficient than the Fireview, leaves less ash at the end of a burn. I'm curious about where you are getting your information about this stove, and what experience youhave had upon which you are basing your very strong statements . Have yet to see anyone who actually owns a PH state that the stove is a "woodhog" or requires an inordinate amount of work to run. In fact, my impression is that we are all really enjoying our stoves.
A cat thermometer is a very useful tool for knowing just when to throw the bypass damper shut, but by no means necessary. You will quickly get a feel for how long it takes your cat to ignite under various conditions, based on stove top temperature. It's not real scientific, but it's close enough to work. If you've done a lot of charcoal grilling, you're probably already good at judging stove top temperature by how close you can hold your hand to the stove.
Engage way to early, and you'll watch your fire start to snuff out. If you engage just a little too early, you can go outside and watch your chimney for the moment of ignition, when the black smoke pouring out seems to just disappear in an instant. Engage too late, and no harm done, other than losing a few minutes of more efficient burning.
Yes, but with the PH, engage to late and you've got a non-cat secondary burn going that can be difficult to snuff out. There's a lot of unrestricted air flowing to that secondary manifold, and once that thing gets going can you snuff it out? I don't know.
I believe Todd installed a cat probe thermo on his keystone and found that he could close the bypass much sooner than he had been.
Ahh... missed what you were asking there. Never ran a hybrid stove.
I have cat probes for both of my stoves and think its not only usefull for cold start light offs but also reloads and monitoring cat temps. Temps should be kept under 1600 for longer lifespan. Soapstone surface temps lag way behind internal temps as well and a cat probe can be a valuable tool to tell you what's going on.
You'll need to go back and read what I said. The Progress IS a woodhog at LOW BURN because it only burns for 12 hours, per the manufacturer, with a full load of wood. Compare this to 30 hours from the competitor with the same size firebox. The PH is hogging more than double the wood. Oink oink oink. I don't care if it makes more heat or is more efficient with the fuel it consumes, if it can't help but gulp down such huge amounts of wood then yes, it's a hog.
No I don't own one, not many people do as it is a brand new stove. The manufacturer has provided specifications that have not been refuted thus far.
We'll all be watching as time goes on and WS makes more upgrades the PH. Maybe they can fix the burn time problem, maybe mambers will be able to triple the rated burntimes with a technique or mod of their own.
I've been thinking about mods for this stove like screws in the baffle holes or cutting off the dog house air, maybe that would turn it into a full time cat? I suppose if you did something like that you would lose the higher output BTU's of the non cat mode but it would also stretch them out for a longer period. There's no dog house/zipper air hole in their other stoves, all the primary comes right down the glass. A steady stream of combustion air blow torching the bottom splits makes for a shorter burn.
If I can make it to the next BBQ I'm going to pick their brain on this, who knows maybe I'll drive home with one.
I'm still not comprehending the advantages of a hybrid stove, if you can't easily select how it operates. I suppose it's easiest to certify, and satisfy the EPA that way. Just doesn't seem like the best of both worlds to me.
Todd: There seems to be a common assumption that non-cats are capable of higher peak output. Do we know this to be true? We know cat's can burn lower, but is there any reason they can't hit the same high? I'm not sure I see the difference between a cat running full-bore at 1000'F to 1400'F and a reburn flute running at a similar temperature.
No I guess you don't know if it is true or not......It would probably be a lot easier if all non cat stoves would just come with a disclaimer stating that you are buying an inefficient piece of equipment that will not heat your house 24/7 and if you are a serious wood burner you should look for a catalytic stove as secondary combustion is for looks only and not heat ...... That disclaimer would solve the answer to a lot of questions and threads around here....LOL
Folks have gotten the huge BK King up to 800, which has got to be making some major btu, without the secondary system. Maybe the PH cat is smaller than required in the abscence of the secondary air system.
The majority of wood burners use non-cats and heat their homes just fine. Many, myself included, 24/7. Cat stoves can and should be better at doing it in just about every way.
That said, the T5 alderlea is looking attractive to me right now.
Enviro Boston 1700? Would give you a little more firepower. I don't know how big your place is though.
I can't say it's true for everyone but from my limited experience it was true. I had a Lopi Endeavor and I think it produced more raw run you out of the room heat. The stove really had little to no control when fully loaded for the night or when I went to work. To be fair I have a 30' chimney, I think it would've ran much more controlled on a 20' chimney. If I didn't find a steal of a deal on the BK I planned to cut the secondary air supply down to help give me more control. If I was around I could control the heat output by limiting the amount of wood I put in but when I loaded her up she went to the moon and came down. I can have the BK @ 700, turn the air down and minutes later the temp follows the air setting. A non cat with raging secondaries is not going calm down so quickly.
I've found that in my situation I didn't need max btu's to keep this place warm. If I want/need big heat the BK does a fine job but the low/medium heat output is what makes these stoves special. No more laying on the floor to get away from the heat an hour after reloading and no more making guests uncomfortably warm.
A cat lets you burn at lower rates but I think we have to keep in mind that a cat burning at its lowest setting is less efficient than when its burning at a higher setting.
Maybe PH tuned their stove for highest efficiency as in the end its how much heat you get into the house. If your stove is larger than your house requires then you have excess wood to burn
and can burn at lower rates but like the one guy said it seems like PH doesnt use much wood. (as its tuned for higher efficiency)
Its an odd thing to think about, is a stove doing a better job that can burn longer or is it doing a better job by getting more heat out of the wood. I would say we are trying to hit a happy medium.
Could you just put a pipe damper on the PH for a bit of fine tuning nothing major to slow down the air intake slightly as your lower the draft of the pipe. I know guys with the tall 30 foot chimney's
seem to put in pipe manual dampers as their flue draw is usually too high.
Completely untrue. A cat stove is more efficient at low burn and less efficient at higher burn temps.
I looked it up and you are right, I figured if the CAT was at a higher temp it would more completely burn up all the smoke gases.
Roughly the chart I saw, showed a cat at .8g per hour rate gets 10,000BTU then at a 1.6g per hour burn rate gets 15,000BTU.
Just for the record, the 12 hour max burn time reported by WS for the Progress Hybrid is extremely conservative. I can easily get 14 hours out of a load of 17" long splits. I'd assume one could get more out of 20-22" splits.
I've said it before, but to me the PH is basically like having two stoves. You get a 2.7 cft stove that acts most like a secondary stove, but is more efficient and does burn a bit slower than a secondary stove. And, you get a cat stove about the size of the fireview. This is because, for me at least, if I load it completely full the secondaries tend to take over. Now, keep in mind I only had half a winter to play with it so I'm still learning. I also have a very tall chimney which might have something to do with that.
The stove will certainly not get 30 hour burn times. I don't particularly want or need 30 hour burn times (and in point of fact, I doubt a BK set on super low would be heating my house). In fact, I often didn't load the Progress completely full because I'd rather have it ready to reload after 12 hours than still have a TON of very hot coals and the stove still cranking the heat after 12 hours. 12 hours is really about perfect for my schedule.
The screen is an issue for me. It clogs up too often and isn't that easy to clean. My dad has the same issue with his. Many people don't seem to have that issue. I wonder if it's because we're burning 99% ash? At any rate, WS is close to having that issue resolved.
Bottom line, I would definately buy the stove again. It is beautiful, easy to use, efficient, and effective. Oh, and pretty darn resonably priced. Also, dealing with WS is great and you know if there is any issue they will bend over backwords to fix it.
Oh yeah, just to clarify, the secondary air is controlled on the PH. The draft lever controls both the primary air and the secondary air. The secondary air doesn't close completely but it does close quite a bit. Both the primary and secondary couldn't close completely, because even in full on cat mode a fire still needs air to burn. I think with a strong draft, once the secondary gets going it tends to keep going because as the cat is also still burning quite hot it keeps the secondary plate very hot and close to ignition. You can see this on a low burn as the stove will go dark for awhile with the cat burning away, then the secondaries will erupt and burn for awhile, and the process repeats.
I can't wait to do some more experimenting this winter!
Actually, I was taking someone's word for the fact the WS was reporting 12 hour burn times. That is not true. I just looked at the website and it says 14+ hours.
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