Deciding on a Cat Stove - Progress Hybrid vs BK Princess/Chinook 30

[Highbeam]

Actually, I was taking someone's word for the fact the WS was reporting 12 hour burn times. That is not true. I just looked at the website and it says 14+ hours.

I am at least one person that relayed the 12 hour burntime. I didn't make it up, it is still very low. That's funny, I think they just changed the site. Made the firebox a 2.8 CF too, though I'm not sure if that is new. The site now states 12-14 hours burn time so there you go. Wish they would just say 14 since 12-14 is a non-spec.

http://www.woodstove.com/progress-hybrid

If the low burn rate is 12538 btu per hour and the stove holds 50 lbs of wood (20 lbs per CF seems standard) at 8000 btus/lb that means the stove holds 400000 btu of wood. It should burn for 32 hours if 100% efficient, about the same as the competitor.

50% efficient is still 16 hours.

What's the deal here?

 

[Highbeam]

I am at least one person that relayed the 12 hour burntime. I didn't make it up, it is still very low. That's funny, I think they just changed the site. Made the firebox a 2.8 CF too, though I'm not sure if that is new. The site now states 12-14 hours burn time so there you go. Wish they would just say 14 since 12-14 is a non-spec.

http://www.woodstove.com/progress-hybrid

If the low burn rate is 12538 btu per hour and the stove holds 50 lbs of wood (20 lbs per CF seems standard) at 8000 btus/lb that means the stove holds 400000 btu of wood. It should burn for 32 hours if 100% efficient, about the same as the competitor.

50% efficient is still 16 hours.

What's the deal here?

The fireview is now a 10-12 hour burner. Sheesh!

 

[BrowningBAR]

The fireview is now a 10-12 hour burner. Sheesh!

So, why not a Fireview? Do clearances not work for you?

 

[Huntindog1]

So does anyone know why the Blaze King gets so much extra burn time? Is it the Thermostat control?

Did the PH guys want to keep the flame going a little more so you could enjoy watching the light show.

I have heard the Blaze King isnt such a pretty sight, smoldering log.

 

[Highbeam]

So, why not a Fireview? Do clearances not work for you?

Nope. The rear outlet and my vertical flue mean that the stove has to set way out away from the wall. I spoke with WS and they were very helpful but the fireview takes up a lot of space if you need to vent vertical. I would have one on my hearth right now, people love their fireviews. The smaller WS stoves also have huge rear clearance requirements.

The PH "fixed" a lot of these problems with the reversible outlet and better rear clearances.

 

[Todd]

The Fireview has always been 10-12 hours and the PH dropped down from 16 to 12-14 last Winter. Like I've always said before Woodstocks numbers have always been on the conservative side and should be because there are too many variables.

 

[eclecticcottage]

The smaller WS stoves also have huge rear clearance requirements

This is one thing that would keep me from ever getting one of their stoves. That and the side load door, it kills my side clearances.

I didn't read through everything, but my personal thought on the three would be the Chinook if it fits the style of the house. I really dislike the princess' looks and the chinook kicks the PH's butt for burn time if the MFG's states times are all equal.

 

[Highbeam]

Compared to non-cats, all of the cat stoves in this thread have really long burn times. I think I'm done splitting hairs now.

 

[begreen]

Advertised or actual burn times? 12-14 hrs is possible in a PE Spectrum/Alderlea T5 too.

 

[greenbrierwv]

Advertised or actual burn times? 12-14 hrs is possible in a PE Spectrum/Alderlea T5 too.

My progress hybrid is arriving Monday. I burn wood as my primary heat source in the mountains of WV in a well insulated 2000+ sq ft home and supplement this with solar space heating that i designed and built myself (air/water). With weatherization i have been easily able to heat my house with an old vermont castings encore cat stove from the early 90's. i went with the progress hybrid because of the efficiency ratings, the low emissions, build quality, and the burn times. i looked at blaze king but was ultimately unimpressed with their appearance. I like the thermal mass of the progress hybrid soapstone stove and would rather look at it over a big fugly steel stove. While numbers are important, i have zero doubts in the progress and know that it will be a long time fixture in my home. I know the progress will be a HUGE improvement over the older VC encore without doubt. I will let you know how it goes this winter.

didnt it get the highest EPA efficiency rating of any stove made?

 

[Todd]

Advertised or actual burn times? 12-14 hrs is possible in a PE Spectrum/Alderlea T5 too.

Where did you hear that? I knew it was pretty good but not that good. I was thinking consistantly 8-10. I sure would like to know if it would be possible to install a BK type t-stat on a non cat stove?

 

[begreen]

Our next door neighbor has a Spectrum and tells me he is seeing good coals a half day later. Tom Oyen tests all the stoves they sell. So far the Super series has come in with the longest burn time out of 61 stoves according to his website. It's the stove he owns. I'm not sure the reason why but I suspect it is in part because the air controls throttles both the primary and secondary air supply.

 

[Waulie]

I know this has been discussed a thousand times. But, I don't necessarily count "good coals" as the end of burn time. I count the end of burn time as near the end of when the stove still heating the house. I haven't really timed it, but my guess would be I'd still have good coals, as in enough to easily relight, the PH after WAY more than 14 hours. At 14 hours, I will still have a ton of very hot coals and the stove still in cat range on the stovetop (around 250).

 

[begreen]

Exactly, burn time is a hugely ambiguous term.

 

[greenbrierwv]

Where did you hear that? I knew it was pretty good but not that good. I was thinking consistantly 8-10. I sure would like to know if it would be possible to install a BK type t-stat on a non cat stove?

http://www.epa.gov/oecaerth/resources/publications/monitoring/caa/woodstoves/certifiedwood.pdf

 

[rideau]

I know this has been discussed a thousand times. But, I don't necessarily count "good coals" as the end of burn time. I count the end of burn time as near the end of when the stove still heating the house. I haven't really timed it, but my guess would be I'd still have good coals, as in enough to easily relight, the PH after WAY more than 14 hours. At 14 hours, I will still have a ton of very hot coals and the stove still in cat range on the stovetop (around 250).

Certainly my experience, Waulie. I was using the term burn time to mean when the stove was still pumping out lots of heat from a still burning fire...which I have had for longer than Woodstock's stated 14 hours, using 16 inch 5-8 inch diameter ironwood logs, stove not completely loaded in part because one can't get too many such logs in through the door in one load. . I can start a fire from coals with the wood igniting even before the door is closed way more than 12 hours after previous reload of a moderate size load. Is there a standard definition of burn time that companies use? I'm going to give Woodstock a call and ask them for their working definition. Then, this winter I'll keep some records. I did do a bit of that last winter. Started weighing the wood I was loading into the stove and recording "burn time", by my definition, the time until the fire has burned down to coals. Recorded home temperatures, but not outside temps. Will work out a chart covering meaningful stats and keep better records this year. Love this stove, truly appreciate Woodstock - an admirable company in every way.

 

[rideau]

My progress hybrid is arriving Monday. I burn wood as my primary heat source in the mountains of WV in a well insulated 2000+ sq ft home and supplement this with solar space heating that i designed and built myself (air/water). With weatherization i have been easily able to heat my house with an old vermont castings encore cat stove from the early 90's. i went with the progress hybrid because of the efficiency ratings, the low emissions, build quality, and the burn times. i looked at blaze king but was ultimately unimpressed with their appearance. I like the thermal mass of the progress hybrid soapstone stove and would rather look at it over a big fugly steel stove. While numbers are important, i have zero doubts in the progress and know that it will be a long time fixture in my home. I know the progress will be a HUGE improvement over the older VC encore without doubt. I will let you know how it goes this winter.

didnt it get the highest EPA efficiency rating of any stove made?

You'll love your new stove. The PH is beautiful, easy and safe, and puts out wonderfully comfortable heat...sitting in front of it is like stting in a sunny window. You'll be eargerly looking forward to cool autumn evenings. And don't hesitate to cook on the PH. I've cooked a large turkey on its original design top.

ENJOY!

 

[rideau]

I have cat probes for both of my stoves and think its not only usefull for cold start light offs but also reloads and monitoring cat temps. Temps should be kept under 1600 for longer lifespan. Soapstone surface temps lag way behind internal temps as well and a cat probe can be a valuable tool to tell you what's going on.

Todd, I have two Woodstock stove top thermometers. I put one on the stove top and one on the stovepipe about a foot above the stove top. I have an excel double wall. I have found that consistently once the fire has been burning a while there is a 2:1 ratio in the temps . However, on startup the stove pipe magnetic thermometer is a much better indicator of stove temp, and I use it as a guide to engage the cataltic converter, thus engaging much sooner than my stovetop thermometer would indicate.I work on the assumtion that although the soapstone isn't registering it, there really is a 2/1 ratio on start up. This has worked well for me. A very low tech approach, but, again, one that has worked well for me.

 

[BrowningBAR]

You'll love your new stove. The PH is beautiful, easy and safe, and puts out wonderfully comfortable heat...sitting in front of it is like stting in a sunny window. You'll be eargerly looking forward to cool autumn evenings. And don't hesitate to cook on the PH. I've cooked a large turkey on its original design top.

ENJOY!

There are EPA stoves out there that are unsafe?

 

[Todd]

Todd, I have two Woodstock stove top thermometers. I put one on the stove top and one on the stovepipe about a foot above the stove top. I have an excel double wall. I have found that consistently once the fire has been burning a while there is a 2:1 ratio in the temps . However, on startup the stove pipe magnetic thermometer is a much better indicator of stove temp, and I use it as a guide to engage the cataltic converter, thus engaging much sooner than my stovetop thermometer would indicate.I work on the assumtion that although the soapstone isn't registering it, there really is a 2/1 ratio on start up. This has worked well for me. A very low tech approach, but, again, one that has worked well for me.

Yes, many Woodstock owners have realized this and use stack temps as a guide instead of the surface temps. For double wall pipe I would go with an internal probe thermometer. A surface thermometer won't be as accurate because of the insulation between the pipe and will also lag behind actual temps.

I really like the cat probe better, I've been able to light off in as little as 15-20 minutes from a cold start and reloads are also much quicker. I would like to see Woodstock come out with an accurate cat probe for the PH. Maybe it would help people when they want that low cat burn before the secondaries kick in and take over?

 

[Hardrockmaple]

Where did you hear that? I knew it was pretty good but not that good. I was thinking consistantly 8-10. I sure would like to know if it would be possible to install a BK type t-stat on a non cat stove?

These folks have incorporated a T-stat in their non Cat EPA stoves. Their non EPA stoves with T-stat worked flawlessly.

http://newmacfurnaces.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=83&Itemid=152

 

[rideau]

There are EPA stoves out there that are unsafe?

Didn't intend to imply any EPA stove was unsafe. Just not going into great detail in my note to a new owner.
My thought process invoved comparing my experience with a Fireview to mine with a PH, as well as a basic feeling that the soapstone stoves are generally safer than non-soapstone from a personal,burn risk factor. Most of the exterior of a Woostock stoive is soapstone. you can hold your hand on the soapstone, even the stove top soapstone, for an instant at any temperature without getting a burn. Certainly not true of cast iron or steel...not suggesting one should, but incidental touching of the vast majority of the stove does not result in a burn. There is time to register "that's hot" and break the contact before one gets a burn. To me this increases safety from a personal burn point of view, not a house fire point of view. I have a profoundly retarded brother I care for. He did three times on very cold days with the Fireviw over a five year period put his back or arm on the soapstone. The contact was long enough and stone hot enough to actually meltthe polar tec he had on, but cotton underneath showed no heat damage and he had no burn. With cast iron or steel he might have been badly burned. With the PH, the room is quite warm even on the coldest evening (windy/30 below outside) and he isn't tempted to get close to the stove. He stays further away from the stove than he did with the Fireview, because the house is always warm and the window throws enough heat to not be comfortable staying very close to it. So,I consider the PH safer than the Fireview, and extrapolate that all the woodstock stoves are safer than non-soapstone stoves from a child burn risk.
I also from my experience consider the PH a safer stove to run than the Fireview because it gets to operating temperature much more quickly than a Fireview, thus reducing the risk of one getting distracted during the fire build process. It is more forgiving of operator inattention than the Fireview.The Fireview takes longer to get to catalytic engagement temp, and can VERY quickly go from low temp to roaring fire with the bypass open during start up. So you have to stay with the stove until you can engage the combuster, and this can take over 1/2 hour with the Fireview.. PH is both much faster to reach temp appropriate for engaging combuster, so one is not tempted to leave the room to deal with a problem or perform a task, and PH seems to be much more resistant to development of a rapid roaring fire. Therefore, to me, PH offers an enhanced safety factor over Fireview & lots of stoves. Hence, my adjective "safe". Also, Woodstock stoves in the real world burn so well that one gets no creosote buildup on glass or in stovepipe/chimney, and upon once yearly cleaning of my 30 foor stovepipe chimney my Fireview and PH have yielded about from 1-2 cups of soft brown residue. 90% of that below the slide point of my excel adjustable stove pipe. So,in fact the chimney itself has essentially no need for cleaning, which is consistent with Dennis' stated need of cleaning about once in five years. I'm not recommending not inspecting or cleaning the chimney. This lack of any creosote build up is a great safety factor. Doesn't mean all stoves aren't safe if creosote is removed via cleaning. Just adds a degree of ease in operation and a safety factor in that it makes the most serious risk of heating with an EPA stove essentially a non-factor.

 

[Highbeam]

Thanks for your input rideau. Your writing seems to very clearly express your thoughts. Good style.

 

[Todd]

These folks have incorporated a T-stat in their non Cat EPA stoves. Their non EPA stoves with T-stat worked flawlessly.

http://newmacfurnaces.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=83&Itemid=152

Good, there should be more manufactures doing this but I suspect they want to "keep it simple stupid" instead of having 2 or 3 different controls to worry about. Blaze King has one control that operates both the air control and t-stat. I would like to hear more about this stove like fire box size and burn times.

 

[BrowningBAR]

as well as a basic feeling that the soapstone stoves are generally safer than non-soapstone from a personal,burn risk factor. Most of the exterior of a Woostock stoive is soapstone. you can hold your hand on the soapstone, even the stove top soapstone, for an instant at any temperature without getting a burn.

I seriously disagree with that. You can not place your hand on a 400, 500, or 600+ degree stove no matter what it is made out of.

Also, Woodstock stoves in the real world burn so well that one gets no creosote buildup on glass or in stovepipe/chimney, and upon once yearly cleaning of my 30 foor stovepipe chimney my Fireview and PH have yielded about from 1-2 cups of soft brown residue. 90% of that below the slide point of my excel adjustable stove pipe. So,in fact the chimney itself has essentially no need for cleaning, which is consistent with Dennis' stated need of cleaning about once in five years. I'm not recommending not inspecting or cleaning the chimney. This lack of any creosote build up is a great safety factor. Doesn't mean all stoves aren't safe if creosote is removed via cleaning. Just adds a degree of ease in operation and a safety factor in that it makes the most serious risk of heating with an EPA stove essentially a non-factor.

Any EPA stove, with good fuel should produce very little creosote. "1-2 cups of soft brown residue" would result from most stoves with good fuel and burning practices.

This isn't to take away from Woodstock stoves. They are good stoves with great customer service. But, they aren't magic.