Need a bigger insert

[hamsey]

Currently we have a Jotul C550 Rockland. It can handle the heating when the temperatures are above 30* outside. When temps get below that I really have to push it hard to raise the temps a few degrees. So we went an looked at a couple of inserts over the weekend that will stick out of the fireplace instead of a flush mount. Wife was against anything that was not flush when we bought the Jotul.

We looked at a Hearthstone clydesdale got information on an Enviro Boston and PE Alderlea T5. They do not have the T5 or Boston in the showroom. Was all set on the Boston until I read that it only blows from the right side post #10 https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/installed-yesterday-enviro-boston-1700.113193/. My thinking is that these stick out so we will get some radiant heat from the face and convection heat from the fans. Not sure how much radiant heat we will get though. PE has the same size firebox as the Jotul. Boston and Clydesdale have a bigger firebox.

Area that this heats is an open floor plan. Main area is 14' wide by 19' long with 17' cathedral ceiling and balcony. Then a 28' wide by 12' long with 8' ceiling area. Upstairs there is 2 bedrooms (unoccupied) at each end of the balcony with the doors only cracked open and a full bath with the door opened half way. Main area outside wall is mostly glass. I have added r38 insulation up in the attic area and that has helped some. My main concern is how hard I have to push the Jotul. Beautiful insert just to small. Aesthetics are important and we like to look of cast over steel on the fronts.

I also would have to extend the hearth in the front. Currently we have a 20" bluestone slab and would need to add around 4 more inches. There is a piece of hardwood floor that I plan on removing and glue the 4" piece to the 20" piece. Would this be acceptable or do I have to remove the entire piece?

 

[mellow]

I would first try insulating your fireplace and install a block of plate before buying a bigger insert.

Why start another thread? https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/upgrade-or-not.135763/

 

[cableman]

Hampton hi300 real nice too. Just installed one for a buddy and it kicks out alot of heat. I believe its 2.3cu also. I also insulated everything and a blockoff plate which prolly adds alot to the heat its putting out.

 

[hamsey]

Hampton hi300 real nice too. Just installed one for a buddy and it kicks out alot of heat. I believe its 2.3cu also.

Is the Hampton downdraft? Thought i read it somewhere. If so not sure I want to deal with it. If not I can add it to the list

 

[cableman]

Is the Hampton downdraft? Thought i read it somewhere. If so not sure I want to deal with it. If not I can add it to the list

Oh that im not sure about

 

[bens_igloo]

Is the Hampton downdraft? Thought i read it somewhere. If so not sure I want to deal with it. If not I can add it to the list

It's not a downdraft. I have the Regency version and continue to be happy with performance.

 

[cableman]

Ya i was really surprised how much heat comes off it and the fan is super quite. More heat then my hearthstone shelburne stove! I like the deep firebox too, but its not too high. Still needs a hearth extention.

 

[velvetfoot]

I also like my HI300. It can load 16" splits N/S.

 

[hamsey]

Attaching a floor plan and some photos:

 

[mellow]

Since you won't answer about the block off plate and insulation here is a generic answer.

Looks like a good location to extend the hearth and install a rear vent freestanding stove.

 

[hamsey]

As you can see we have high ceiling and an open floor plan. We have experimented with the ceiling fan direction and find that with it in the down direction it distriubtes the heat better. Up direction at first to warm the main area. Almost 2300 sq/ft. Wish I went back to the floorplan before buying the Jotul.

From the above models can someone tell me which insert would give the best radiant heat?

 

[hamsey]

Sorry Mellow I did not see that post. Yes I have installed a block off plate. Roxul stuffed at the top cap and above the plate. Think there might be some in the back also. As far as starting another thread I did not think anyone responded to that one which is why I started a new one. Never got a notification that there were responses. When I did check back there was nothing so I thought it was buried.

 

[Huntindog1]

That stove is around 3 cu ft firebox. If your house is well insulated that stove should do well at least down to the single digits.

I used to heat my approx 2600 sq ft house from the basement with a 2.1 cu ft stove. 700 sq ft of the 2600 is the basement family room. It would struggle when getting down around 0 deg.

I was keeping the main part of the house 70-72 and bedrooms at the far end would be 2 to 3 degrees cooler.

I have energy efficient windows and a well insulated house as I added about 12 inches of blown in insulation on the already 10 inches already there.

I wonder if you need to insulate behind stove and above the stove as the brick fireplace is absorbing alot of your heat.

If your wood is sub par just a little too much moisture allows you to use the wood but it greatly robs the stoves heat output and makes the stove have poor performance.

I was using good hardwoods when I heated with the 2.1 cu ft stove.

You have to keep a fire going 24/7 and a stove that size should easily get 10 hours with lots of hot coals left for a new load restart.

Your right that stove might struggle getting down to single digits but at 30 degrees sounds like other issues.

 

[Huntindog1]

I just looked up the firebox dimensions:

25.25" Wide by 15" Deep by 14" high.

I think your most likely not able to load that firebox for best capacity.

Your most likely not buying 24" splits for a east west load.

And most likely not cutting your wood down to 14.5 " for a North South Load.

Most wood sellers sell 18" splits so getting this stove loaded fully presents an issue.

 

[hamsey]

I added r38 insulation in the attic. No one is home during the day so I get up and get a fire going be it with coals or half a super cedar. When I get home @ 4:30 I get another fire going with the last load around 9 or 10.

I know there is no insulation on the sides or back. I know this because I just took the cast surround off to get measurements. I do have a block off plate with insulation above that. Around 4 or 5 inches above the top. Could be that I am not adding enough wood. I have smaller splits 2-4 in and add 3 to 5 of them. Worried about an overfire with the smaller splits. Stuff I just c/s/s if bigger but will not be ready until next year.

I can raise the temps by a few degrees when it is below 30 degrees outside but I have to really push the Jotul. Worried about longevity. I have read many times here about building a smaller fire in a large firebox. Reading some of the other threads it sounds like the cast inserts do not radiant that much heat versus a steel stove. More for looks over function.

Putting a stove instead of an insert is out. I know it is the better route but not with our setup.

 

[texasoak]

Does anybody have a photo of block of plate? Is that sit behind the insert?
also how do you insulate the fireplace on inside?

 

[hamsey]

I just looked up the firebox dimensions:

25.25" Wide by 15" Deep by 14" high.

I think your most likely not able to load that firebox for best capacity.

Your most likely not buying 24" splits for a east west load.

And most likely not cutting your wood down to 14.5 " for a North South Load.

Most wood sellers sell 18" splits so getting this stove loaded fully presents an issue.

Wood that I bought last year for this year is average 14" to 16" and 2 to 4" thick with some bigger pieces. I cut them down to 10" for a n/s load. 114.5 would be up against the glass. I did c/s/s some this year and I cut them to 20" so I have the option to cut them in half for n/s loading. Pieces I bought this year for next are 16 to 17" but thicker, 6 to 7".

Maybe I am not burning the bigger splits right. I rake most of the coals forward leaving just the ash and put the biggest split in the back. Place 1 or 2 more on top of that with a smaller split on the coals and packed tight( no air between pieces). Splits in the back do not get charred but the front split is all flames, wait until the temp reaches 400* then start dampening it. Had it cruising at 550 to 600 last night no secondaries and mostly flames. Glass stays clean as does the firebrick. Woke to very few coals. Might try to stuff it with a full n/s load tonight.

Edit: Just read mellows thread about insulating the fireplace. I have some extra roxul in the basement so I am going to pull the surround again and stuff the side and back (as best I can) to see if that helps.

 

[hamsey]

Does anybody have a photo of block of plate? Is that sit behind the insert?
also how do you insulate the fireplace on inside?

Block off plate sits above the stove. https://www.hearth.com/talk/wiki/make-a-damper-sealing-block-off-plate/

 

[texasoak]

Block off plate sits above the stove. https://www.hearth.com/talk/wiki/make-a-damper-sealing-block-off-plate/

thanks

 

[branchburner]

If your firebox is 3 cu ft, it seems you should be getting better output. Before changing stoves I would suggest to try changing other factors that might be limiting heat output, like operating technique, wood dryness, insulation, etc.

You have not mentioned blower settings... is the blower functioning correctly, and doing all it can? You have ruled out a freestanding stove, but when you ask which insert would give the best radiant heat, the answer is... a freestanding stove. Inserts are more dependent upon blowers and convection, and more likely to lose heat to the masonry/outdoors.

I wouldn't worry about loading the stove up to the gills with good DRY splits, of various size, and running it 24/7. Pushing it too hard generally means too hot w/ too much primary air. If you are cutting back the primary so that a full load runs hot and long, but does not reach excessive (overfire) temps, you are not pushing it too hard... you are simply employing it to to the job it was made to do. You can work that puppy without killing it.

 

[hamsey]

Blower is working keep it around 1/2 to 3/4. Only up all the way if it gets above 700*. Firebox size is only 2.08 cu/ft.

Freestanding stove it out. I do know that would be best for radiant heat. I was hoping I could get something in between. I did read a good point about losing power. With these inserts you do need to run the fan to get any heat but also to keep the firebox temp down. Keeping the temp down worries me more. I can always take the surround off to get more heat but not much I can do to cool it other than building smaller fires.

Operating technique: Couple of weeks ago I thought I was going to have a runaway burn. Really gets the heart rate up. Damper was shut completely and temps kept rising to the high 700's so now I start shutting down the air too early and believe I am packing it too tight. (That is the black and white in me) Basically no air between the pieces. Had a beautiful fire Sunday PM just do not remember how I did it. Lots of secondaries and very little flame. Usually it is opposite.

Wood: Because my splits are small I have only checked a few with my MM and they are between 16 - 20%. Glass stays clear except for a few spots (lower corners) that get a haze to them not black.

Insulation: Got the block off plate with roxul above that and roxul at the top cap. Going to remove the surround and stuff the sides and back with roxul tonight. Hope that will stop some of the heat loss.

I do get a bunch of heat from the Jotul. Just not enough to heat the house when the temps drop below 30* outside. It warms the house a few degrees after 6 or 8 hours. Thinking it should do better than that. Figure I need a bigger firebox to get overnight burns. Above 30* outside the house gets toasty.

 

[branchburner]

Firebox size is only 2.08 cu/ft.

I was going by the post above, 25.25" Wide by 15" Deep by 14" high. But dimensions don't mean you can easily fill the box, anyway.

Upper 700s definitely getting on the high side. Still seems if the stove was that hot the house should be getting warmer than it does with outdoor temps in the 20s.

 

[hamsey]

I was going by the post above, 25.25" Wide by 15" Deep by 14" high. But dimensions don't mean you can easily fill the box, anyway.

Upper 700s definitely getting on the high side. Still seems if the stove was that hot the house should be getting warmer than it does with outdoor temps in the 20s.

Upper 700s is the exception. I try and keep it around it's name 550. Most of the time it is between 550 and 650 during the active burn and around 450 and 500 during the coaling stage.

 

[hamsey]

Ok, got home removed the surround stuffed the sides with roxul. Got a small fire going, and just for giggles I did an incense test. Smoke gets sucked in along most of the top of the door. So that can explain why I do not get much secondaries and mostly flame lousy burn times. So do I replace the door gasket or is it something else?

Edit: removed the roxul from the sides. Getting that break-in Fire smell. Stuff was hot and smelled. Figured it cannot be good. So it's gone.

 

[cybermob2]

I have a 1500sq ft cape cod, mostly split up rooms story and a half. stove is in 13 x 26 living/dining room. Michigan temps are 20s and 30s, so far, with enough wood, my c550 can keep things around 72-75 in the main rooms, and 65-70 in the rest of the house. hasn't been below 20 yet.

I normally build a small fire, 3-4 18-20" splits/wedges, and reload about every 3-5 hours. I can load up a medium load, damper down, and have hot coals to restart next morning with a little effort (no lighters and about 150deg stove), or about 8-9 hours.

HOWEVER, my inlaws have an ANCIENT free standing stove, maybe 2cu ft, and there is NO comparison to a lava hot hunk of cast iron radiating the room. wood trim 15' away is warm to the touch. feels like you're around a campfire being in the same room. the c550 will never get my living room up to 90deg, but Christmas eve, the hearth room at my inlaws will be mid 80s without much effort at all. the downside is no air movement, so the rest of the house is pretty freezing.