New Member New Harman p38 Big problems

[smwilliamson]

From my recolection, even if he did take a draft reading....there is no way to adjust the draft on a P38. Am I wrong on this??? There is no dipswitch. Heck, there is not even a diagnostic tool port. What good would a draft reading be?

 

[stormy873]

Hey, I wasn't going to defame anyone... I would simply make certain my woes made it to the top of the internet search sites- That way if other people go to research a p-38 they would have the opportunity to know that *sometimes* they aren't that easy to light. You will notice I have never uttered the dealer name or hinted at my location-other than Oregon. <G> And, I don't intend to be nasty or vindictive but I am a real hardworking person, this is a huge investment for me and I simply do not feel the dealer has provided much in the way of service.

I'll put it this way, when the stove was installed, I walked outside and looked at the exit pipe, whipped out my trusty tape and had to walk over and tell the installer that the pipe didn't exit far enough from the wall to meet our county code. Then, I asked the guy when he planned to bolt the stove down (also county code for a manufactured home)...hadn't done that either. By this time, I was suffering a loss of confidence in the process. Being that I am "just the woman" and this was manly work I didn't insist on a draft test because I was trying to stay out of the way and not be the pushy/picky woman that installers hate. Image my surprise when the guy loaded up and drove out my driveway when I fully expected him to come back to the house and do a test fire!

I honestly have to say my entire experience in trying to purchase and get this stove installed has been like some strange trip to the Twilight zone. Harman stoves are not a real common brand in the NW but there is a dealer network-of sorts. I spent the better part of a YEAR begging any dealer within 100 miles to come out and make a service/pre-install call to verify the stove could and would legally fit in only location within my house that it could be installed. And yes, I offered to pay for the call and yes, I had cash in hand to buy the stove.

The dealer I used would not have been my first choice but he at least sent someone out to look at our install location. They knew far less about the product than I did but they were a long time Quadrafire dealer and I figured they had to know something about stoves... The only thing I can figure in the end is that most people are not educated consumers. They purchase by "snap decision" and they just pay or do whatever the dealer invoice says and really don't care if the product works or not. For some, the thrill is in the purchase not the use and enjoyment of the product. Me, I am looking to be safe and warm.

As an update, I ventured out buying competing brands of stove pellets to try in the stove and the Golden Fire pellets I purchased lit MUCH easier than the pellets that came with the stove. The dealer offered a free ton of pellets with the stove purchase only offered a $135 discount if I didn't take them... The brand they delivered were not a brand I know much about and so I may have been better offer buying one of the local premier brands with a long time reputation for product quality.

So that is my story up to the minute.

Stormy

 

[Lousyweather]

From my recolection, even if he did take a draft reading....there is no way to adjust the draft on a P38. Am I wrong on this??? There is no dipswitch. Heck, there is not even a diagnostic tool port. What good would a draft reading be?

a draft reading will often tell you if there is an intake/ehaust obstructio, can also diagnose misbehaving parts (sometimes)........no, cant adjust the draft, correct, but thats not the main reason we test draft. It also gives us a baseline on the new stove.....write the reading down in the manual, so, if you have to go back later, a changed draft will often indicate issues, such as poor maintenance.

 

[smwilliamson]

From my recolection, even if he did take a draft reading....there is no way to adjust the draft on a P38. Am I wrong on this??? There is no dipswitch. Heck, there is not even a diagnostic tool port. What good would a draft reading be?

a draft reading will often tell you if there is an intake/ehaust obstructio, can also diagnose misbehaving parts (sometimes)........no, cant adjust the draft, correct, but thats not the main reason we test draft. It also gives us a baseline on the new stove.....write the reading down in the manual, so, if you have to go back later, a changed draft will often indicate issues, such as poor maintenance.

Good point. I do take draft measurements on all new stove installations with the exception of Englander. I usually check it against the reccomendation, I'll start cataloging from now on as yes, I can see the benefit of looking back in time.

Still, there is no excuse for not starting the stove after the install and having that much needed one on one with the homeowner.

Thus further highlighting the differences between SALES and SERVICE dealerships.

I do not work on many P38's but do from time to time and I work on a lot of P61's (own one myself) and have never had a problem lighting them that I couldn't resolve.

Sounds like the installer needs to come back for some face time. Reversing those charges ought to light a fire...pun intended. %-P

 

[Delta-T]

there actually is a draft adjustment pot on the back of the P38 board.....its sneaky, and not very convenient.

 

[MCPO]

Oh yeah , the P-38 does have a draft adjustment . (not sure about newest ones)
You need to remove the 2 control panel screws , tilt forward to access the trim pot on the rear and turn it back (counter clockwise) with a small flat blade screwdriver. (disconnect power first)
When I first got my P-38 I found it hard to start so I (repeating myself here) turned the draft adjustment trim pot all the way back. (counterclock wise)
It helped a lot. My chimney is a 7"rd , SS , and 24 ft high and consequently has a strong draft.
I never did a draft test though.

 

[MCPO]

Oh yeah , the P-38 does have a draft adjustment . (not sure about newest ones)
You need to remove the 2 control panel screws , tilt forward to access the trim pot on the rear and turn it back (counter clockwise) with a small flat blade screwdriver. (disconnect power first)
When I first got my P-38 I found it hard to start so I (repeating myself here) turned the draft adjustment trim pot all the way back. (counterclock wise) Page 18 in users manual.
It helped a lot. My chimney is a 7"rd , SS , and 24 ft high and consequently has a strong draft.
I never did a draft test though.

 

[slls]

Hey, I wasn't going to defame anyone... I would simply make certain my woes made it to the top of the internet search sites- That way if other people go to research a p-38 they would have the opportunity to know that *sometimes* they aren't that easy to light. You will notice I have never uttered the dealer name or hinted at my location-other than Oregon. <G> And, I don't intend to be nasty or vindictive but I am a real hardworking person, this is a huge investment for me and I simply do not feel the dealer has provided much in the way of service.

I'll put it this way, when the stove was installed, I walked outside and looked at the exit pipe, whipped out my trusty tape and had to walk over and tell the installer that the pipe didn't exit far enough from the wall to meet our county code. Then, I asked the guy when he planned to bolt the stove down (also county code for a manufactured home)...hadn't done that either. By this time, I was suffering a loss of confidence in the process. Being that I am "just the woman" and this was manly work I didn't insist on a draft test because I was trying to stay out of the way and not be the pushy/picky woman that installers hate. Image my surprise when the guy loaded up and drove out my driveway when I fully expected him to come back to the house and do a test fire!

I honestly have to say my entire experience in trying to purchase and get this stove installed has been like some strange trip to the Twilight zone. Harman stoves are not a real common brand in the NW but there is a dealer network-of sorts. I spent the better part of a YEAR begging any dealer within 100 miles to come out and make a service/pre-install call to verify the stove could and would legally fit in only location within my house that it could be installed. And yes, I offered to pay for the call and yes, I had cash in hand to buy the stove.

The dealer I used would not have been my first choice but he at least sent someone out to look at our install location. They knew far less about the product than I did but they were a long time Quadrafire dealer and I figured they had to know something about stoves... The only thing I can figure in the end is that most people are not educated consumers. They purchase by "snap decision" and they just pay or do whatever the dealer invoice says and really don't care if the product works or not. For some, the thrill is in the purchase not the use and enjoyment of the product. Me, I am looking to be safe and warm.

As an update, I ventured out buying competing brands of stove pellets to try in the stove and the Golden Fire pellets I purchased lit MUCH easier than the pellets that came with the stove. The dealer offered a free ton of pellets with the stove purchase only offered a $135 discount if I didn't take them... The brand they delivered were not a brand I know much about and so I may have been better offer buying one of the local premier brands with a long time reputation for product quality.

So that is my story up to the minute.

Stormy

The unit should be grounded to the frame in a manufactured home also.

 

[woodsman23]

scrap it and move on.....

 

[stormy873]

UPDATE:

After spending a few more days attempting to figure out the stove, I threw in the towel and contacted the dealer again. This time, I copied the manual and went line by line through the starting procedure adding my comments in red. Apparently it did the trick as they finally called Harman who it seems has decided that I need to have the board replaced...Am hopeful, oh so hopeful that this will correct my issues.

Elise
with 3 tons of pellets
for my 1000 square foot house
now all I need is a functional stove!


http://i268.photobucket.com/albums/jj35/stormy873/Harman/harmansml.jpg

 

[imacman]

Elise, please make sure to keep us up-to-date on this. I'll be very curious as to what happens when a new board is installed.

And am I correct in assuming that the DEALER will be coming to your home to install AND TEST FIRE the stove?? I would suggest that you have a list of any questions you have ready to ask while the dealer is there.

Oh, and for those poor quality pellets.....if you get the stove working you could always mix them with the better quality ones at about a 3-1 ratio (3 good to 1 poor)....unless the dealer is willing to swap for a better brand.

 

[stormy873]

UPDATE....Or yes, it does get worse.

First, allow me just a moment of whining...We are just working folks and we have invested heart and soul and all our winter heating resources into a pellet stove. I am just brokenhearted and now I am cold because now my stove does not work at all.

Several days prior to the scheduled board replacement we were sitting round the old pellet stove when suddenly the fan "cut out" for a second or two and then resumed operation. This happened several times during the evening and by the next day I counted 10 times when it would stop for a second or two and then start back up. We alerted the dealer so the stove tech would be prepared when he arrived to deal with additional issues.

Stove tech pulls in late this afternoon and replaces board. Asks if we want to light a fire before he leaves... Duh! I pointed out the stove still does not operate in test mode as the manual clearly states it should...We proceed to light fire using the instruction manual and "door shut method" fire promptly goes out. I then pick up my 2.5 empty bottles of gelled alcohol and ask him if he wants to show me how it is done or if he would like me to start the stove. He tells me I really should get a bigger torch to heat up the pellets more...I respond I don't think I should have to smoke up my house to get the damned stove lit. He agrees.

I then proceeded to use the "door open" method I learned from you fine folks on this forum.---works like a charm. Nice cheery fire going, he admits there is something amiss with the stove and tries to tell us it is because nobody ever buys this model and Harman puts no effort in to the model...Yeah, yeah, yeah... We stand around watching the stove and he says he will talk to dealer about what our next step is in the process and he leaves...It was then I realized the stove wasn't augering any pellets. As soon as the pellets in the fire pot are depleted the stove goes out.

Praying it is just an anomaly, I cross myself and relight the stove. Now, it just simply doesn't auger pellets to feed the fire. It will auger pellets and go in to test mode *IF* and only if you turn it to full turbo. Otherwise it will occasionally run the test mode on another set but not consistently.

So, where do I go from here? I would appreciate advice on what is fair for both myself and the dealer. I think that I have been patent in dealing with a stove that has a problem for 30 days and that problem hasn't been resolved. I believe the dealer should bring me a replacement stove and hook it up at his expense. If, as the dealer says the Harman p-38 is an unsupported model, I am willing to pay the difference to get another model that is better supported but I do not feel I should be required to expend any further money beyond the cost difference of the stove I wanted (A working p38) and whatever model I would need to replace it with. Does that seem like a fair position for me to take?

Elise
3 tons a pellets and no stove
or this may have turned out to be
not such a great idea!

 

[MCPO]

UPDATE....Or yes, it does get worse.

First, allow me just a moment of whining...We are just working folks and we have invested heart and soul and all our winter heating resources into a pellet stove. I am just brokenhearted and now I am cold because now my stove does not work at all.

Several days prior to the scheduled board replacement we were sitting round the old pellet stove when suddenly the fan "cut out" for a second or two and then resumed operation. This happened several times during the evening and by the next day I counted 10 times when it would stop for a second or two and then start back up. We alerted the dealer so the stove tech would be prepared when he arrived to deal with additional issues.

Stove tech pulls in late this afternoon and replaces board. Asks if we want to light a fire before he leaves... Duh! I pointed out the stove still does not operate in test mode as the manual clearly states it should...We proceed to light fire using the instruction manual and "door shut method" fire promptly goes out. I then pick up my 2.5 empty bottles of gelled alcohol and ask him if he wants to show me how it is done or if he would like me to start the stove. He tells me I really should get a bigger torch to heat up the pellets more...I respond I don't think I should have to smoke up my house to get the damned stove lit. He agrees.

I then proceeded to use the "door open" method I learned from you fine folks on this forum.---works like a charm. Nice cheery fire going, he admits there is something amiss with the stove and tries to tell us it is because nobody ever buys this model and Harman puts no effort in to the model...Yeah, yeah, yeah... We stand around watching the stove and he says he will talk to dealer about what our next step is in the process and he leaves...It was then I realized the stove wasn't augering any pellets. As soon as the pellets in the fire pot are depleted the stove goes out.

Praying it is just an anomaly, I cross myself and relight the stove. Now, it just simply doesn't auger pellets to feed the fire. It will auger pellets and go in to test mode *IF* and only if you turn it to full turbo. Otherwise it will occasionally run the test mode on another set but not consistently.

So, where do I go from here? I would appreciate advice on what is fair for both myself and the dealer. I think that I have been patent in dealing with a stove that has a problem for 30 days and that problem hasn't been resolved. I believe the dealer should bring me a replacement stove and hook it up at his expense. If, as the dealer says the Harman p-38 is an unsupported model, I am willing to pay the difference to get another model that is better supported but I do not feel I should be required to expend any further money beyond the cost difference of the stove I wanted (A working p38) and whatever model I would need to replace it with. Does that seem like a fair position for me to take?

Elise
3 tons a pellets and no stove
or this may have turned out to be
not such a great idea!

Elise ,
Not to be repetative but forget the test procedure for now. Try this:
When starting the stove the first step to take is to turn the feed rate dial from off to the #1 setting. At this point you should hear the combustion motor running. Verify this is happening. If so then procede to the next step.
Open the door and add a cup of pellets soaked in your firestarter , (gel?) light , and allow to burn for a short while , maybe 30 -60 secs with door partly open . Then close the door. The flame should immediately change from a wild flame to tall and straight up like a blow torch since the combustion fan is now forcing all the air through the burn pot. Verify that this happens. Assuming all is fine up to this point the ESP should heat up to temp (165*) and the blower fan will start and the pellet motor will run approx 7 secs every minute. At this point you can adjust the feed rate as you please.


Here`s what I`d do if my P-38 exibited your problem.
Looking at the wiring diagram in my manual , it seems the (pellet) feeder motor is controlled by the ESP with a pressure switch in line so I`d have to think you might have a bad ESP. However , I`d first want to determine if the pressure switch itself is faulty . It can be easily and quickly checked with a simple meter or by temporarily by-passing it.
Actually the ESP is the brains of the whole stove operation.
Getting this stove to run should present no big problem . Most anyone who is reasonably handy (like yourself) should be able to change out a bad ESP or pressure switch. It`s a rather bare bones simplistic stove to work on. Unfortunately you just hadn`t received much support/help from your dealer and tech.
Don`t give up cause once you get the problem solved and get this stove up and running it will satisfy you as much as any other brand stove would. To give up on it would be akin to throwing the baby out with the bath water.

 

[newf lover]

Is there a Better Business Bureau out where you are? I agree with what you said, the dealer should give you a replacement stove and hook it up at their expense. If it's a more expensive model I would pay the difference, making sure they spell out exactly what the difference is and call around to make sure they're being truthful. Right now, you have a stove that hasn't worked and it's not your fault. If they do not agree to this, i would start by filing a complaint with the Better Business Bureau or whatever consumer protection agency you have out there. I would dispute the charges on the credit card if possible, or I would take them to small claims court. You are not being unreasonable, they are. Are you supposed to be satisfied with a non-working stove? That's ridiculous. It doesn't matter if it's Harman's fault, dealer's fault, or installer's fault. It's not your fault, and you shouldn't have to suffer the consequences for whatever is going on. I think it's time to be a b%$^.

 

[MCPO]

OK, The Better Business Bureau, etc route is one recourse to initiate right now but it probably won`t be quickly resoved that way either and since it`s been only about two weeks since the install , maybe give it another week or so before launching the last resort. It could make relations with your dealer even worse.
And it could very well be something simple like a bad ESP.

 

[Lousyweather]

Im frankly not very impressed with the dealer. The P38 has been out there for quite some time, its the Harman entry level unit, and as such does not have all the bells and whistles the rest of the line has. BUT, they USUALLY work fine, when all components and the install is good, as well as being clean. We know your unit is clean, but the other two, we dont know. Its up to your dealer to ensure all parts work as advertised....they clearly arent. Whether it be a ESP, circuit board, whatever, clearly an issue here. The BBB really doesnt do much in resolving issues, as the dealer isnt ignoring you......I think they just lack the experience to fix them. Maybe a chargeback on the credit card will get their attention? I dont know of many P38's we have sold that require a plethora of "tricks" to light them, such as the leave the door open idea......

FWIW, the p43 is a better choice, self-regulating and autoigniting for $2-300 more.

 

[dave1959]

Please tell me you all are kidding... Handsfull of pellets, starter gel, alchol...just to get it started...is that nornal ??
I have a 2 year old Lopi Leyden ( my first ) and all I do is turn it on and push the start button, 15 min later I have heat...
I have read on hear about the reputation and quality of Harmon but that sounds like and alfull lot of work just to get it started.
If I had one and had to that I'd go back to wood.

 

[jtakeman]

Please tell me you all are kidding... Handsfull of pellets, starter gel, alchol...just to get it started...is that nornal ??
I have a 2 year old Lopi Leyden ( my first ) and all I do is turn it on and push the start button, 15 min later I have heat...
I have read on hear about the reputation and quality of Harmon but that sounds like and alfull lot of work just to get it started.
If I had one and had to that I'd go back to wood.

Yes, Its normal for a P38 as its a manually lit stove. Well not as much trouble as stormy is having. Her stove has an issue!

 

[Delta-T]

just for "funnsies", if you have one, use a multi-meter on your outlet to make sure you have proper volts, that can make "squirrely" things happen on any stove. usually to get into test mode you do have to turn the knob all the way to turbo.

 

[stormy873]

Update to previous Update-or the saga continues :

Oh pellet stove wizards, I have more and more issues piling one on top of the other now. Although I don't know if it helps in diagnostics I did put my "Kilowatt" meter on the stove and the volts read within a normal range as per my stove manual...I am at a loss as the issues are becoming more and more pervasive and the dealer is not returning phone calls or emails as of today. I do not want to dispute charges on my credit card but I am getting desperate to get someone's attention. Here's the latest:

The dealer, in consultation with Harman decided that we must have a bad board and a board was ordered for the stove. We waited for more than a week for the board to arrive. In the time between when the board was ordered but before it arrived the stove developed additional operational problems. Now, the blower fan would come off and off at irregular intervals (starting, stopping and starting again several times in rapid succession.)

The replacement board was installed last Friday November 12. FULLY ONE MONTH after the stove was installed. We attempted to start the stove using the Harman instructions and the tech watched it go out in front of him. I then lit the stove use the leave the door cracked method and when the tech left there was a cheery fire burning. Soon the fire faded and went out. As an unfortunate side note, a wire had jiggled loose and the auger no longer was functional so we spent yet another weekend without a stove. Now, I want to be clear that I do not want to vilify the installer (Chris) over this. It was unfortunate that the wire was not seated properly and failed to allow the stove to function. However it was also 54 degrees inside my house and I am getting COLD.

The installer returned on Monday and attached the wire that allowed the stove to operate and had my husband light a fire in it. (Using the leave the door open method) When the stove got going Chris took note of the fact the blower went on and off and said “that isn’t right.” He asked my husband to keep tabs on the stove.
We documented several hours worth of faulty blower operation. The stove fan was going off and on as many as 15-30 times an hour with short pauses in operation before resuming blowing, only to pause, resume operation and pause again. Over and over and over again. Sometimes the stove will operate normally with the fan going on at reasonable intervals for up to two hours and then it will start in with the “pause, start, pause start” for anywhere from 15 minutes to almost an hour of erratic operation.

I lit the stove this morning November 16, 2010 . About 15 minutes after lighting the blower came on for the first time and then started in on the cycle off and on again and on again with pauses in between for approximately ½ hour of very erratic behavior. After that time it operated normally for over an hour.
Because we are frankly scared for our safety my husband opted to turn the stove off at that time. He turned it to the off position, waited 40 minutes, insured the fire was out and the stove cool and the combustion fan had turned off. With no fire and the stove in the OFF position the combustion fan turned itself back on then off and then on AGAIN. This is with a cold stove with no fuel in it. He finally physically UNPLUGGED the unit from the wall.

At this point my issue with the stove starting is small potatoes compared to the issues that make me think of the pellet stove equivalent of Cujo or Christine the killer car. I don't care if I have to leave the door open to get it started. I just need it to operate.

Any thoughts on where I go from here. I alerted the dealer via phone and email and haven't heard a peep out of them and expected at least a call back to acknowledge they would need to set up another visit-nada.

The installer did tell us that he talked to them (sorta indicated them was Harman) about us needed another stove and they said NO way-since I wasn't privy to the conversation I don;t know if the "them" was in fact Harman or if it was the dealer.

Elise
Harman paperweight in living room
3 tons of pellets in barn
57 degrees in house.

 

[cncpro]

How did you come by such a great deal of patience ? I'd be disputing the charge and returning the stove immediately. They have had enough time to make it right.

Your description of the blower coming on and off makes me wonder if the power to the pellet stove is flickering due to a loose wiring connection or a fault in the fuse or circuit panel ? The reason I ask this is because my stove always powers up the fans immediately upon supplying power. I believe this is done to minimize smoke entering the house during a momentary power outage... So anyway, if your power is flickering on and off that could possibly explain the unusual blower activity.

 

[Lousyweather]

another crazy question....did anyone ever check the outlet with one of those devices which checks polarity, hot neutrals, etc? This erratic stuff seems weird....not saying it ISNT the stove, but boy, wouldnt it be embarrassing if it werent tohe stove at all, rather a power supply problem? or a house wiring issue?

 

[stormy873]

I guess will go buy a meter to test the circuit today. (I will probably have to ask for instruction.) I will still be livid *even* if this is the case (and I have no idea if it could be an issue) We paid for a professional installation, had a pre-install visit to determine if our stove could be installed in the location it needed to be placed AND in the Harman installation manual it says the FIRST thing that should be checked before proceeding with an installation is correct electrical polarity. As a consumer, it should not be my job to second guess the installer and remind him that he needed to check polarity at either of two the points in the process where he had the opportunity-It is the reason I paid for a professional installation. So, no I won't be embarrassed if it is a problem on my end, I would be even more disappointed in the dealer for NOT determining and issue like this BEFORE the installation process began. I have long ago learned that I can not be an expert on everything in the world-that is why I paid to have a professional installation done. If this is an issue with pellet stoves, I would think that someone, somewhere in the two installation calls and the three service calls should have thought to address prior to this. I guess sometimes I give people credit for common sense they may not possess.

Elise

 

[cncpro]

You won't need instructions. It looks like a plug but no wire sticking out. Instead there are indicator lights...

You just plug it into the outlet and verify that the "correct" light sequence is lit up.

This test is a great idea but won't tell you if there is a loose or flickering connection as I proposed above.

If this test shows "correct" you may want to have a qualified electrician make a quick inspection of this particular circuit from the panel all the way to the outlet.

 

[SmokeyTheBear]

http://www.amazon.com/Electrical-Receptacle-Outlet-Ground-Tester/dp/B0012DHVQ0