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Stove required for "Wood Stove Design Challenge"

Post in 'The Hearth Room - Wood Stoves and Fireplaces' started by Kiwi Firemaster, Aug 7, 2013.

  1. Kiwi Firemaster

    Kiwi Firemaster New Member

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    Hi Mike,

    The requirement of being no longer in production was just my parameter to get around rule 5.4, it isn't actually the rule, so the 30-nc would appear to be perfectly fine. What is important is your written approval to use one of your stoves, so if you can supply a stove on top of the approval it would really take a load of my mind.

    I couldn't find any info or an image of the 18-p, but a rusty old stove may suit the my retrofit theme :)

    Begreen talks about publicity and I would do my best to help in that regard in return for your help. John Ackerly at "For Green Heat" would also oblige on that front I am sure. To a degree this is a collaborative effort in the wood vs others for heating the home.

    I will look forward to meeting you also.

    Jason

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  2. lumbering on

    lumbering on Feeling the Heat

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    I've been reading about the stove challenge. Didn't realize you were on a micro- budget. You are up against deeper pockets.

    Have you considered turning to kickstarter.com to raise funds?
  3. Kiwi Firemaster

    Kiwi Firemaster New Member

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    Yes I have made the query to kickstarter but sadly I would have to be based in the USA to qualify.

    Budgetary constraints do seem to be a weakness in the plans of legislators and bureaucrats, there is a very real barrier to entry for the innovator that isn't business orientated. I could easily have given up on this and gone back to my Architecture studies. The dilemma with my technology is that if it wasn't for my micro budget I would never have invented it. One of the issues I fight in this country is that no one ever conceived that a retrofit could improve an old stove so the legislation is silent on the issue. For two years they have known it could be done but they are still not interested.

    Hats off to John Ackerly and the Alliance for Green Heat for putting the Design Challenge together, it is a great opportunity for inventors to have a crack and I am not the only low budget entry. My living in a distant corner of the world is not something John could do much about.
  4. Kiwi Firemaster

    Kiwi Firemaster New Member

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    Also, can it work with rear vent, or is it designed only for top venting stoves?[/quote]
    There has been a conversion of a rear venting stove but it is harder to make a once size fits all solution. But the plans to do so are in my head and I have sent plans to someone to make the conversion to a coal stove. There is been a conversion to an open fire as well but that involved fitting a door.
  5. BrotherBart

    BrotherBart Hearth.com LLC Mid-Atlantic Division Staff Member

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    Logistics on this are gonna be mean. No mention has been made of how much time you need with the stove beforehand. Leading to where that would occur. And if it wasn't a pre-EPA stove problems could pop up due to the multiple primary and secondary air intakes on the stoves with two of them being unrestricted. And the long, from the back channeled to the front, air path. And on and on. You could get a really bad surprise if you and a stove just showed up at the Mall and it didn't work with your device.
  6. lumbering on

    lumbering on Feeling the Heat

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    How about "Rocket Hub"? http://www.rockethub.com

    It's like kickstarter but international.
  7. begreen

    begreen Mooderator Staff Member

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    Ugh. Found it hard to find info there. That is the most funding seeking site I think I have ever seen.
  8. stoveguy2esw

    stoveguy2esw Minister of Fire

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    well, obviously i cant promise anything, curious though how tall does a firebox need to be to accept our device? i looked at the posted video but didn't. really get a sense of what im looking at inside. the 30 isn't exactly going to give a bunch of head room.

    also whats the smallest sized firebox that will take this device? the 18-P i have isn't huge, but its tall for a firebox , downside is it has a smallish window (7.25X6.5"ISH" ) have dug it out of the garage and am planning on taking it to my shop and refurbishing it just in case (though i do not know how i would get it there yet) still grinding
    Huntindog1 likes this.
  9. Kiwi Firemaster

    Kiwi Firemaster New Member

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    Mike I can use any height box as I just get the flue extension made to length. It will also work well in pretty much any dimension box, the intent is a universal retrofit for old stoves. A narrow but tall box would be new territory for me but it has to deal with that to be valid :)The dimension of the wood does become a problem with a smaller box though. and that is one reason why a North/South box is better. They have moved to chord wood for the Design Challenge as well. They did have a lower limit of 1.5cu/ft for the Design Challenge although that has since been discarded, but it might be a good gauge for your 18-p. In terms of the 30 the baffle would come out to increase headroom.

    To give you an idea of the stoves I personally use, my daily stove and the one in the video has a calculated useable volume for testing (modified) of 1.75 cu/ft. The internal box dimensions without the baffle are 24"w x 10.5"d x 16" h. The large door aperture adds a bit of volume at 3.5"d. That is a medium to large stove by New Zealand standards. I normally work in metrics so these measurements are converted.

    My test stove is smaller with a test volume of 1.4 cu/ft.(also modified) It is 22.5"w x 12" d x 15" h.

    Yes transport is an issue but probably the lesser problem than sourcing a stove and having the manufacturers approval :) The set up day is a couple of days before the actual burnoff and I should be there on the 10th. I will send you an email so that you have mine.

    Cheers

    Jason
  10. aansorge

    aansorge Minister of Fire

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  11. MishMouse

    MishMouse Minister of Fire

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    How would this invention work with a barrel stove?
  12. Huntindog1

    Huntindog1 Minister of Fire

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    Dont think any of those stoves would work. I am not the guy doing it but I would think they want a stove with a top vent 6" and a glass window so people can see in side for exhibitng the device and the competition would be what he is looking for.

    I think from what I have read about it that for a single barrel stove (but not a double barrel) it would work great. Its basically adding a secondary preheat air system to old stoves.

    The add on is a double wall device that air gets sucked down thru the outer wall area and the air is preheat on its way down to the bottom of this double wall or double chamber pipe add on. Th device is mounted such the pipe extends down into the stove down close to the bottom of the stove where hot coals will be. Thus the only way for smoke to exit is to be drawn down close to the hot coals and to be mixed with the pre-heated air thats flow down the sides of the out chamber of the double wall pipe. This pipe add on has to be made of a durable stain steel I would think as it also acts like the secondary burn chamber inside the inner pipe. as thats where the smoke meets the secondary air and secondary ignition fires off. In a double barrel stove you could not get the device extended down close to the hot coals. So I think you would have to go with a single barrel stove design.
  13. mellow

    mellow Resident Stove Connoisseur

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  14. clemsonfor

    clemsonfor Minister of Fire

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    What is all that box thats welded onto the back of that , mellow? i know its prolly not your stove but it looks strange, almost like 2 stoves welded togeather?
  15. mellow

    mellow Resident Stove Connoisseur

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  16. dafattkidd

    dafattkidd Minister of Fire

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  17. Kiwi Firemaster

    Kiwi Firemaster New Member

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    Yes the IntensiFire would work with No1 & No3 but as dafattkidd points out a glass door would really be best to showcase the technology. Neither would be a clean install either. No2 is what we call a Pot Belly Stove here and they are in the too hard basket unfortunately.

    The stove Mellow has posted would be an excellent conversion for the Design Challenge". I have sent and email to Mike so will wait to hear from him first, at the very least I would need the written approval before jumping in to purchase. I am also glad as Mellow's link led to a picture of the 18-p as I hadn't found a definitive one up until now :)

    Mishmouse - yes it would work great with a barrel stove.

    Lumbering On - That funding site will be worth a look. The one thing I haven't worked out is what to give away for the different levels of funding supplied. For around $1000USD it would be an IntensiFire, but I have periodically given thought for give aways for lesser amounts. I have also seen a good friend fail dismally at a crowd funding attempt.
  18. MishMouse

    MishMouse Minister of Fire

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    Did you do any tests on a barrel showing the level of improvement?

    The main reason why I bring up this type of stove are;
    1) Shouldn't be any patents on it that you need to worry about
    2) Cheap, you could build it yourself onsite
    3) If you could convert a basic stove such as a barrel into a clean burner getting around 80% + efficiency there definitely would be a market for your device.
    4) There would be no question on the performance of your device if such a basic stove achieved EPA efficiency.
  19. BrotherBart

    BrotherBart Hearth.com LLC Mid-Atlantic Division Staff Member

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  20. Kiwi Firemaster

    Kiwi Firemaster New Member

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    Thanks BrotherBart, but I am hundreds of miles away from that action luckily. More at risk of volcanic activity here.

    Mishmouse my R&D budget has been very limited, I had pared back my lifestyle and invested in university for my Architecture Studies you see. So I would love to be doing more testing and experimenting but that will take time. The barrel stoves are cool and I have seen the kits for them on Ebay. Hopefully I will get my technology up there one day although there are some logistical & manufacturing(read budget) challenges. I think it would be knocking on the door of 80% in a barrel stove as the 75% mentioned earlier in the thread was on a wet basis, whereas the EPA measures on a dry basis. Add about 7% is my understanding plus I have improved the performance. On the down side that testing was only on the low setting, a comprehensive test across low, med and high would bring it back a bit. I would have to change the design to accommodate the curved base but for the DIYer that wouldn't be a problem.
  21. stoveguy2esw

    stoveguy2esw Minister of Fire

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    thats a 24-fc, its a "step top" catalytic unit, looking at your description im not sure, this unit has a bypass damper 4X7 inches i think that is off center right of the flue. does your device have to connect to the flue itself?
  22. Kiwi Firemaster

    Kiwi Firemaster New Member

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    Yes Mike it does need to connect direct to the flue. Is that bypass damper assembly welded in or can it be taken out? If welded could it be gas cut out? If so I am sure a local engineering shop would be able to do that.

    Some models do require a gas axe and I have 5 customers with Original Kent Tile Fire/Sherwood models that have made successful conversions where the baffle had to be cut out. Gas cutting is possible insitu because heat gets the flue drawing the fumes out. It is great to give an old stove a new lease of life and that 24-fc certainly looks robust enough to burn for 20-30 more years.

    If I purchase it then I would have to try and sell it again after the Design Challenge :p
  23. DexterDay

    DexterDay Guest

    Post it here in the For Sale Forum. If you win or come close. I doubt you will have a problem :)
  24. stoveguy2esw

    stoveguy2esw Minister of Fire

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    cat plate is welded in , its 3/8 steel plate supporting the cat and its housing as well as the bypass damper.

    and yeah she's a heck of a solid stove pretty much all 3/16 to 1/4 plate steel body , 3/8 cat plate. stove weights in at just over 500 lbs
  25. stoveguy2esw

    stoveguy2esw Minister of Fire

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    im going to try to load up the 18P i have at home and get it to my shop small window in the door but its a window. if noting else i'll try to get it usable will be some work though as its got about 12 years of weather on it. labor is on me. if i can get it "back in form" we just gotta figure out how to get it up there, will advise, i still gotta beat on the boss about the 30, but if your device is designed to bring a smoke dragon from back in the day up to current emission standards i think an old stove would be a better "test" (just thinking)

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