Used Harman, New Quadrafire or Refurb 10-CPM?

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fishwater

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Apr 23, 2012
35
Hello folks, I would like to introduce myself & get some input. I am going to purchase a pellet stove within the next month, I have never owned a pellet stove before. I am heating a 2000 sq ft Cape in NH. The home has a two car garage on the left side of the house with a large finished mudroom/sunroom connecting from the garage to the kitchen, the ceilings in the addition are cathedral, the back outside wall is sliding glass doors. The room is approx 12' X 15' with 12 ft ceilings. Currently we have a useless hydronic system & two 30k propane vent free stoves on opposite sides of the home. One stove is in the addition & the other is in the living room. The two stoves heat the home rather well but create so much moisture inside the home there is mold on the window sills if we don't keep up after it. The home was built in the 80's & is extremely tight, completely wrapped in vapor barrier which I know is great for heating but doesn't breathe. We also have an air exchanger in the home that is plumbed into the hot air ducting which literally runs 24/7 trying to bring the humidity down in the home to 50% I want to keep one of the propane stoves (the one in the living room) & replace the stove at the far end of the home with the pellet stove. I am hoping to run entirely off the pellet stove with some supplimental heat provided by the one propane stove if necessary.

Originally we thought about replacing the stove in the living room with the pellet stove but the room is very small & I feel it would be too hot in the room with the stove running enough to warm the rest of the house. The install would be much easier if it was in the living room though because that is an outside wall. The install in the mudroom will be a little more complicated because the vent will have to go straight up through the ceiling & the OAK going into the garage which I am not that comfortable with honestly. We do not use the garage except to store my muscle car which is only driven in the summer so there is no fuel smell or open gas. I had an installer come look at the house to give me a recommendation on the stove & install. He suggested the Quadrafire Classic Bay, he was the one who suggested installing the stove in the sunroom & putting the OAK into the garage. I asked about installing the stove in the basement & utilizing the ducting in the basement but he felt it wasn't worth the effort since it's more efficiant to heat the living area vs. the basement.

So my quandry is since I am going to perform the install myself is whether I purchase the Quadrafire as recommended & have the support of a local business or a used Harman P-61a or for half the price of either a refurb TimberRidge from AMFM Energy. I am extremely handy & don't mind getting dirty. I obviously spend a lot of time on forums like this learning & researching but travel for work, I am gone a night or two every week. I know the Harman is rock solid & will burn almost anything while the other two stoves will require more maintenance. I don't mind tinkering to get things dialed in but I don't want to be a slave to my stove, I really don't want to clean the stove every day. I don't have the time or energy with work & two small children. The price of the TimberRidge matched with the obvious support of Englander & this forum really have me leading that way plus it is literally half the money of my other two choices. I figure the 49-TRCPM is a great choice not because I want to burn multi fuels but the agitator should keep the burn pot a little cleaner helping with the daily maintenance. Am I correct in my assumption? Any input on any of this is greatly appreciated.
 
Welcome to hearth.com fishwater !

First off I do not use pellets but I will try to help where I can.

Everything I can find points to englander being amazing at customer support which would make the decision for me. I do not own a pellet stove so I can not attest to the quality of any of the stoves but I can speak to the customer service aspect. We had a harman ( wood stove ) and discovered there customer support to be usless. I know 3 people with englander and they all have had excellent service without fail. Customer service is a major asset when something goes wrong even if your off warrenty ! Basement installs can work but not well in most cases the heat will absorb into the walls and disparate before you get it upstairs. Most people have to spend a lot on insulation to make basement installs worth it. Be careful about an oak into a garage that could be deadly if there is a car running and you forget. Code in my area is very explicit oak kits can only go to the outdoors. You could get around that by going under the floor then over to an outside wall possibly !
 
...two 30k propane vent free stoves.... The home was built in the 80's & is extremely tight, completely wrapped in vapor barrier which I know is great for heating but doesn't breathe.
Many better informed people than me on this topic and I am sure you are one. However, this concerns my conservative thinking brain. Isn't this kind of a recipe for disaster. Do you have a good carbon monoxide detector?

Sorry for not knowing about pellet stoves. I buy used stoves and have not been disappointed. Used wood burners are a simpler purchase to evaluate. And I have been fortunate to save a ridiculous amount of money going this route.
 
We do have Co2 monitors on every floor, never had a problem but that is why I removing the propane in favor of pellets.
 
Just got off the phone with Englander & there are no concerns with running the OAK into the garage. All they are concerned about is cold air getting into the unit, even if there was a car running in the garage the OAK goes directly into the furnace & not the home so there are no safety concerns from their perspective. I have a call into my town building inspector to see what their thoughts are.
 
Hey Neighbor

Where abouts are you in NH? I'm sure all the stoves are pretty good choices, but I only can speak of the Harmons.

I have 2 Harmon stoves, 1 I bought new, the other used. I can't say enough good about them. Like it was said, they burn anything. The Harmon's have a big ash tray and even in heavy winter season, I empty once every 2 to 3 weeks. I have a good Harmon dealer, who gives great service. Overall very happy!

As the pellets stoves are a dry heat, that would help your moisture problem.

Tom C.
 
I am in the seacoast, in Rochester. I had the Harman dealer come out & he was great. The Harman's were a little more than I wanted to spend, I could justify the cost with the rock solid reliability but even he recommended the Quad for my application if I don't mind a little extra cleaning weekly.
 
.......The price of the TimberRidge matched with the obvious support of Englander & this forum really have me leading that way plus it is literally half the money of my other two choices. I figure the 49-TRCPM is a great choice not because I want to burn multi fuels but the agitator should keep the burn pot a little cleaner helping with the daily maintenance. Am I correct in my assumption?.......
Yes, Englander customer service was one of the main selling points for me when I bought my 10-CPM. And yes, the stirrer DOES help keep the burn pot cleaner. Plus any pellets that tend to clinker will be broken up by it too.
 
Just got off the phone with Englander & there are no concerns with running the OAK into the garage. All they are concerned about is cold air getting into the unit, even if there was a car running in the garage the OAK goes directly into the furnace & not the home so there are no safety concerns from their perspective. I have a call into my town building inspector to see what their thoughts are.

functionally running an OAK into a garage is operable but in many areas the locals will not allow it. it will fall on their call as to whether or not it can be done that way regardless of stove choice. JIK i would be looking for a "plan B" for teh OAK just to be on the safe side. as i would DEFINATELY want an OAK on the stove in that tight a house.

feel free to drop me a PM or e mail if you have any questions about the timberridge unit, i do know a few things about that stove 9if its a refurbished unit i expect i did the refurb on it.
 
I own both a Classic Bay and CPM.... Just got the CPM and only fired it a few times.

The air temp on my Quad seems higher. But the CPM has a larger Convection blower, so faster air, means lower air temps. I have a fee stoves I can compare it to. But I need it to be in the house to be a fair comparison. The Quad is a Beast.

I have had several seasons with the Quad. It heats my Entire 2,200 sq ft Ranch to 75° on its Lowest setting. The CPM will have to do the same job on heat level 3 or 4 to be about the same. The CPM has the Auto On/Off feature, along with High/Low. Which means it wont have to shut down every time the stat reaches its setpoint. It will go to Level 1 and idle until the need for heat returns.

Both have good attributes. All depends on what your looking for. !!
 
Hello

I have tried a Pelpro Bay View, Pelpro Shop or Home heater, a Quadrafire Classic Bay, an Enviro EF2, an Englander 25-PDV and a Travis Avalon Astoria. None of those crank out the heat like the Avalon Astoria with temps out of the Heat Exchanger of 600 degrees that will heat my entire 2,000 SqFt house from the basement when it is -6 Deg F outside!

Anyways, Good Luck and let me know if you have any questions.
 

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Hello

I have tried a Pelpro Bay View, Pelpro Shop or Home heater, a Quadrafire Classic Bay, an Enviro EF2, an Englander 25-PDV and a Travis Avalon Astoria. None of those crank out the heat like the Avalon Astoria with temps out of the Heat Exchanger of 600 degrees that will heat my entire 2,000 SqFt house from the basement when it is -6 Deg F outside!

Anyways, Good Luck and let me know if you have any questions.

Don.... Air temps of 600° will shut ANY stove down. It seems as if you were touching steel during that reading. A reading of over 300° (after exchanger) is Rare here. Almost non existent. Your 600° is double that..

Please re-test the "Air" temp. This reading should be "AFTER" the heat exchange tube. At least 1/2" away from the front of the stove.


Even if you have the T/C probe centered inside the Exchange tube, you are surrounded by steel, giving a false temp. The air temp is after the tube. Preferably after the grate on your stove. Thats where my temps are measured.

600° is Meltdown temps. A false reading. IMHO. This should be revisited again.

(Edit: Also, its not a fair comparison, unless all are tested in the same environment/ Shed and Basement are not the same/ No OAK and uninsulated - vs - OAK and insulated)
 
All really good info guys. I like the fact that the Quadra can crank out the heat like that, in this situation I don't think that you could have too much heat. My worry was the Timber might be a little undersized for my home since it is on the other end of the house that we don't spend much time in?
 
Don.... Air temps of 600° will shut ANY stove down. It seems as if you were touching steel during that reading. A reading of over 300° (after exchanger) is Rare here. Almost non existent. Your 600° is double that..

Please re-test the "Air" temp. This reading should be "AFTER" the heat exchange tube. At least 1/2" away from the front of the stove.


Even if you have the T/C probe centered inside the Exchange tube, you are surrounded by steel, giving a false temp. The air temp is after the tube. Preferably after the grate on your stove. Thats where my temps are measured.

600° is Meltdown temps. A false reading. IMHO. This should be revisited again.

(Edit: Also, its not a fair comparison, unless all are tested in the same environment/ Shed and Basement are not the same/ No OAK and uninsulated - vs - OAK and insulated)

Yes, I think the probe was touching the inside wall of the heat exhanger tube. I will try it again.

That temp did not shut the Astoria down. The hopper and other parts were not hot.
Thanks
 
The walls will reach that temp. I used to have a magnetic thermo for wood stoves on my Quad, that I put on the firebox wall (just inside the right side door, next to door latch) I got around 400°-500° on Medium for the side wall and air temps near 300°…

600° is Hot. For the plate on the stove.. Not really. But for the air.. Thats crazy hot.

I measure with a Cole Parmer T/C also. But I measure outside the tube. About 1" away. As long as its measured from the same place every time, you will get an accurate reading. For instance. You can measure 3" away. But every time I test a new pellet, I would measure at the same tube 3" away. At the 1" distance, I still get about a 220° average for most pellets, with Somersets being closer to 240°-250°… Never measured air temps on Med or High. As I dont run it on those settings.
 
I have been out looking at stoves, nothing is really grabbing me, or shall I say none of the sales people are impressing me. Everyone just points at the stove & says this one will do 2000 sq ft. I have a bunch of flyers & I am reading but I keep coming back to the TimberRidge, I just hope it's not too good to be true. Also used stove prices seem a little higher than I expected.
 
Where are you located? ? There are deals out there... Does your Quad dealer have Heatilators? The PS-50 or CAB-50 is a good stove, for a great price. Along with refurb Englanders.
 
Where are you located? ? There are deals out there... Does your Quad dealer have Heatilators? The PS-50 or CAB-50 is a good stove, for a great price. Along with refurb Englanders.

I looked at the Heatilators today & thought they were a great price but tough to look at. I also really liked the sales guy & the store. He also suggested the Greenfire GF55, he preferred the basic approach to stove construction with the thoughts of less to go wrong. While I totally agree with him the tech nerd in me likes the features of TimberRidge.The PS50 seems like a nice stove but really looks drab, not sure the wife will let me get away with that in the front room. Also I don't know if the stove is just going to run & run on low or hi so maybe the fancy control board isn't such a big deal. I won't know the answer to that until I pick & install one of course.
 
The Heatilator PS-50 is a Quadrafire Classic Bay 1200 in disguise.

HHT owns Quadrafire, Harmon, and Heatilator. The only difference between the PS-50 and the Classic Bay is the external shell and heat exchanger. They are much cheaper than Quads because the shell and exchanger is cheaper... But ALL internal components are the same (combustion blower, convection blower, auger, thermocouple, burn pot, etc).

They may seem cheap. But its a Hell of a stove for the price. My Classic Bay was over $2,800 with Tax. The PS-50 is about $1,700 near me...

Dont count them out. My Quad heats a very large area on its Lowest setting.
 
The Heatilator PS-50 is a Quadrafire Classic Bay 1200 in disguise.

HHT owns Quadrafire, Harmon, and Heatilator. The only difference between the PS-50 and the Classic Bay is the external shell and heat exchanger. They are much cheaper than Quads because the shell and exchanger is cheaper... But ALL internal components are the same (combustion blower, convection blower, auger, thermocouple, burn pot, etc).

They may seem cheap. But its a Hell of a stove for the price. My Classic Bay was over $2,800 with Tax. The PS-50 is about $1,700 near me...

Dont count them out. My Quad heats a very large area on its Lowest setting.

I am really curious on your thoughts of what you would pick in my situation since you have two of the three stoves I am looking at. I went to see the CAB-50 & I like that much better, I really like the hopper size. The smallish hopper on the Timber is a turn off but I like the stove otherwise. The Quad has the heat exchanger which I think will be better for heating purposes & the Cab is great price from a local vendor. The Quad being the most expensive of the two seems like it may be worth spending a little more for the purposes of the heat exchanger, tough call either way!
 
Just got off the phone with Englander & there are no concerns with running the OAK into the garage. All they are concerned about is cold air getting into the unit, even if there was a car running in the garage the OAK goes directly into the furnace & not the home so there are no safety concerns from their perspective. I have a call into my town building inspector to see what their thoughts are.
GETTING AIR FROM YOUR GARAGE FOR AN AIR INTAKE IT AGAINST NFPA 211. My 2 cents...get the used P61
 
We bought our p61a new in January and I can't say enough good things about it. Heats our 2000 sq foot colonial fairly easy. Scrape the burn pot every 3 days and give it a full cleaning once a month. The ash pan is never anywhere close to being full when I empty it. I can't speak for the other stoves, but the Harman is easy going,"not so much on the wallet though."
 
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