Wanting to get serious with our wood stove.

[rlah]

I have already used this forum for getting answers to my questions on firewood, now I've got a pretty good stack of wood cut, split and stacked.

See the pics for more info on my setup. "Peacock" wood stove installed by previous owner more than 16 years ago. ID tag on back was mostly painted over but I think I can read this much "------ Stove Works", "------, Michigan". He installed it in a basement he dug out *underneath* our 1-story house (1300 ft2). Basement is partially finished and dry.

We used the stove for fun a few times when we first moved in about 16 years ago. But until last winter's snow storm, we had hardly used it at all. But now I'm out of a good paying job, closer to retirement age and wanting to save on heating cost through the Indiana winter. I would like to use it to supplement our natural gas furnace and save maybe 50% of heating cost.
I used the stove for maybe 2 days last winter and my wife complained of the smell of smoke even upstairs on the main floor... it even gave her headaches (although it did not bother me.)

1) I presume this "peacock" stove a pre-EPA model, correct?

2) I understand the knob on the door is the main vent to control air intake. But what is the circular dial on top with a white knob handle for... another kind of vent?

3) Is the chimney setup adequate or should I be looking into getting a metal liner installed inside the 7" square clay liner? (The inside of the clay tile liner seems relatively clean to me. And I can't afford to put a lot of money into this setup.)

4) Perhaps this is the most important... as I said my wife may put a halt to my idea of wood burning unless I can solve this. Is there a way to minimize (or eliminate) most of the smell of smoke and tar? ... Is there gasket material that would work around the doorway and pipe fittings to block the escape of fumes? Also is there a way to keep a backdraft from coming back from the chimney into the house when the stove isn't burning?

I have so many more questions but maybe this will suffice for now.

Thx for any help.

 

[BrotherBart]

Kinda late at night to get into details but hang with us. With that flue and stove and dry wood you should be able to cut the heating bill. Not 50% but a lot. Folks will be along that burn in or have burned in the old stoves like that one to help you out.

The smoke problem is probably from the wood you are burning and how you are burning it. Folks here will help with that.

If they don't. I'll be back.

 

[madrone]

There will be more in-depth answers from others more experienced than I, but for starters, I'm a little concerned about a few things. The 2x4 under the legs is the first thing I noticed. I have no idea what the recommended clearance to combustibles would be for this stove, but I'm guessing your set up doesn't meet those requirements. There seems to be some discoloration on the wall about the pipe? I can't tell if that's from leaking smoke, or heat. Either way, probably not good. I'm also noticing that this stove is not airtight, and seems to have quite a bit of creosote accumulation inside. I'd worry a little bit about it getting away from you.

The proper thing would be to buy a new stove and liner, but if you're not prepared for that just yet, I'd look at some safety upgrades for starters. Floor and wall protection at the minimum. (Edit: I just realized you've got cinderblock walls and concrete floor. No need for wall protection, but carpet and 2x4's under a stove are not ideal.)

 

[Danno77]

Probably half the wood's fault, half theflues's fault, and half the stove's fault, lol.

Gotta have well seasoned wood.

Your flue looks okay from what I see, but I wonder about it's size, and the fact that it is external. I think it might be a little big to get a good draft, add that to it being an external chimney and you've got gasses cooling off too fast when it's really cold outside.

Lastly, that door just doesn't look like it could ever seal tight enough for me! I don't know old stoves, though, I'm a relatively new wood burner, so what I know I've learned from the old farts here. Better to just let them school you, instead of me giving it to you secondhand.

Perfect solution to your problems, IMO, would be to reline, drop a new EPA stove into place, and get 3 cords+ of nicely seasoned firewood.

But that's probably not the most feasible solution, so stick around and we'll get you hooked up as safely and economically reasonable as possible.

 

[Danno77]

Btw,I hadn't seen madrone's reply when I started typing mine, so it's interesting to see we had similar final suggestions on liner+stove.

I'd like to be the second to tell you to fix that carpet/wood under the stove. Like ASAP. Like before it ever gets lit up again. Big big big no-nos. Get some cheap clearance 12x12 tiles and cut the carpet up. should be an easy one day job and would look really nice.

 

[fishingpol]

+1 what others have mentioned already. You can search Craigslist and newspapers for woodstoves, many people buy undersized stoves, and upgrade to larger ones.(Including myself!) The stove doesn't have to be new, but a newer EPA stove will be a great benefit to you. If a newer stove is in your future, try to locate one soon before the fall rush when prices go up.

I'm wondering if you have a clothes dryer or upstairs bath fan running that may be causing a negative air situation. If the flue is not pulling a good draft, a blustery day can cause issues like that. I would make sure a smoke detector and CO detector are in place for your safety.

You'll see from the posts that this group is the safest bunch of woodburners around, so you will get pointers about things that do not look safe. Take them in stride and you will get the answers you need.

Oh yes, and welcome to the addictive world of woodstoves.

 

[BrowningBAR]

Um... is that stove sitting on top of carpet?

 

[raybonz]

I have already used this forum for getting answers to my questions on firewood, now I've got a pretty good stack of wood cut, split and stacked.

See the pics for more info on my setup. "Peacock" wood stove installed by previous owner more than 16 years ago. ID tag on back was mostly painted over but I think I can read this much "------ Stove Works", "------, Michigan". He installed it in a basement he dug out *underneath* our 1-story house (1300 ft2). Basement is partially finished and dry.

We used the stove for fun a few times when we first moved in about 16 years ago. But until last winter's snow storm, we had hardly used it at all. But now I'm out of a good paying job, closer to retirement age and wanting to save on heating cost through the Indiana winter. I would like to use it to supplement our natural gas furnace and save maybe 50% of heating cost.
I used the stove for maybe 2 days last winter and my wife complained of the smell of smoke even upstairs on the main floor... it even gave her headaches (although it did not bother me.)

1) I presume this "peacock" stove a pre-EPA model, correct?

2) I understand the knob on the door is the main vent to control air intake. But what is the circular dial on top with a white knob handle for... another kind of vent?

3) Is the chimney setup adequate or should I be looking into getting a metal liner installed inside the 7" square clay liner? (The inside of the clay tile liner seems relatively clean to me. And I can't afford to put a lot of money into this setup.)

4) Perhaps this is the most important... as I said my wife may put a halt to my idea of wood burning unless I can solve this. Is there a way to minimize (or eliminate) most of the smell of smoke and tar? ... Is there gasket material that would work around the doorway and pipe fittings to block the escape of fumes? Also is there a way to keep a backdraft from coming back from the chimney into the house when the stove isn't burning?

I have so many more questions but maybe this will suffice for now.

Thx for any help.

First welcome to the forum!

As others have mentioned combustibles such as carpet and 2x4's are not acceptible.. I also see issue with how the pipe connects to the chimney.. Is that a rag or something wrapped around it? I also wonder about the stovepipe, is it an 8" pipe and if it is how do you fit that into a chimney tile that is only 7" inside measurement?? Your liner appears to be in OK shape and as others have said pick up a used epa stove from craigslist or spring for a new one.. Good dry firewood will be a huge factor.. Do these things and you'll burn safer and better satisfaction..

Good Luck!

Ray

 

[rlah]

BB: thx for the welcome! Probably best not to expect too much in heating bill savings. The wood I burned last winter was well seasoned hardwood at least 5 years old I had saved for emergency heat.

madrone: I appreciate your quick safety tips. The 2x4s and carpet base will be addressed. (I wonder how heavy that stove is... must be 300 - 500 lbs)
The discoloration on the wall at the pipe connection I believe is from some smoke leakage... I suppose there is some sealant to stop these kind of leaks?
As for the creosote buildup in the stove itself, maybe I should open it up super hot to burn it off??... or burn some product I've seen in the store that is suppose to reduce creosote?

Danno77: I suppose a liner (6"?) would help draft and minimize buildup. I'll look into liners and the cost. Maybe I could get by the first winter without it?

fishingpol: +1 on getting the 2x4s and carpet removed. I do have a smoke detector by the stove. And I'll look into getting a CO detector.
As for the negative air situation, I made sure there wasn't any exhaust fans running when I was starting and running the stove last winter. But something I'll keep in mind.
I'll start researching a used EPA stove... but this thing is in the basement and would be quite a chore to remove and replace. The stairway to the main floor the previous owner installed has a 180 degree bend in it... made tough going for the delivery guys when we bought a new washer and dryer last year. I can't imagine how I would move wood stoves!

 

[rlah]

Raybonz: The wrap on the stove pipe is a plastic bag. I disconnected the pipe from the wall during off season to keep chimney air from backing into the house with the smell. Then I cover the exposed pipes with plastic bags to confine any further creosote odor. As mentioned before, the wife doesn't like odors or smoke.

The pipe from the stove is 8". I'm posting another pic taken at the door at the base of the chimney to show more detail there. Maybe this answers your question on how the 8" pipe meets the chimney. I think maybe it needs a little cleaning out there at the base...

 

[raybonz]

Raybonz: The wrap on the stove pipe is a plastic bag. I disconnected the pipe from the wall during off season to keep chimney air from backing into the house with the smell. Then I cover the exposed pipes with plastic bags to confine any further creosote odor. As mentioned before, the wife doesn't like odors or smoke.

The pipe from the stove is 8". I'm posting another pic taken at the door at the base of the chimney to show more detail there. Maybe this answers your question on how the 8" pipe meets the chimney. I think maybe it needs a little cleaning out there at the base...

Woah you can't fit an 8" pipe into a chimney tile that size..A 6" pipe would fit fine and most stoves today use 6" unless a large stove and even then some use 6"... Your pipe is bigger than the inside of the chimney tile.. I would also be concerned with the height of the ceiling above where the pipe enters the chimney.. There are clearance requirements in this area as well.. I'm glad you're looking at the safety aspects of this setup..

Ray

 

[BrowningBAR]

Just searched Criagslist for wood stoves in Indiana. Not much in the way of used stoves in that area. Kind of surprised.

 

[rlah]

Looks like I need to get in there and clean that area out. Then get a tape measure on the pipe and chimney liner to figure out dimensions... something doesn't add up. I'll try to post the measurements after I get it cleaned out. The gunk there is probably settlings from over 10 years of being unused.

 

[pen]

If it is an 8 inch stove collar on the stove the minimum square chimney size you should have is ~ 7 inches in diameter. A 8 inch stove pipe has a cross sectional area of ~50 sq inches. A 7 inch square liner has a cross sectional area of ~ 50 sq inches. They reason they can fit together even though the round pipe is bigger is because the stove pipe is NOT supposed to stick into the chimney anyway, it is supposed to butt up against it. The hole in that 7 inch liner will be slightly smaller than 8 inches, then your crock will seal to the outside of that tile and your pipe simply butts up against that bottom tile w/ a hole in it. This is a very common practice.

Judging solely on the picture shown that chimney does not look like it's in bad shape. If I were using that chimney and stove I'd obviously clean up the combustibles issue as others have mentioned, I'd burn good well seasoned wood (cut / split / stacked for at least 1 year) and I'd be brushing that chimney monthly. (basically these were my old habits up until I put the new stove and liner in since I had a very similar setup to yours).

The burning super hot thing is not something I recommend. I recommend burning hot all the time, basically never super hot. The problem with burning a stove is not burning hot, but rather getting it super hot after a period of burning it too cool. There is no such thing as "burning it really hot to keep the chimney clean once per day." If that is what you are doing, then you are either starting mini chimney fires often or simply finding out daily while you are there what the ignition temp of the creosote in your chimney is. IF you don't smolder the stove, if you burn dry wood, and clean that chimney monthly, and the rest of your system is par or better, you won't have an issue.

I burned a setup like this for a long while before I finally jumped off the deep end and went all modern. Now that I have I wouldn't go back for anything, but I don't know how serious you are about continued burning, money, etc.

Welcome!

pen

 

[raybonz]

If it is an 8 inch stove collar on the stove the minimum square chimney size you should have is ~ 7 inches in diameter. A 8 inch stove pipe has a cross sectional area of ~50 sq inches. A 7 inch square liner has a cross sectional area of ~ 50 sq inches. They reason they can fit together even though the round pipe is bigger is because the stove pipe is NOT supposed to stick into the chimney anyway, it is supposed to butt up against it. The hole in that 7 inch liner will be slightly smaller than 8 inches, then your crock will seal to the outside of that tile and your pipe simply butts up against that bottom tile w/ a hole in it. This is a very common practice.

Judging solely on the picture shown that chimney does not look like it's in bad shape. If I were using that chimney and stove I'd obviously clean up the combustibles issue as others have mentioned, I'd burn good well seasoned wood (cut / split / stacked for at least 1 year) and I'd be brushing that chimney monthly. (basically these were my old habits up until I put the new stove and liner in since I had a very similar setup to yours).

The burning super hot thing is not something I recommend. I recommend burning hot all the time, basically never super hot. The problem with burning a stove is not burning hot, but rather getting it super hot after a period of burning it too cool. There is no such thing as "burning it really hot to keep the chimney clean once per day." If that is what you are doing, then you are either starting mini chimney fires often or simply finding out daily while you are there what the ignition temp of the creosote in your chimney is. IF you don't smolder the stove, if you burn dry wood, and clean that chimney monthly, and the rest of your system is par or better, you won't have an issue.

I burned a setup like this for a long while before I finally jumped off the deep end and went all modern. Now that I have I wouldn't go back for anything, but I don't know how serious you are about continued burning, money, etc.

Welcome!

pen

Pen I am curious how do you connect an 8" pipe to a 7" sq. chimney tile? The biggest round connection from the liner as I see it would be 7" if the interior is 7" correct.. Just wondering..

Thanx,
Ray

 

[Backwoods Savage]

madrone: I appreciate your quick safety tips. The 2x4s and carpet base will be addressed. (I wonder how heavy that stove is... must be 300 - 500 lbs)
The discoloration on the wall at the pipe connection I believe is from some smoke leakage... I suppose there is some sealant to stop these kind of leaks?
As for the creosote buildup in the stove itself, maybe I should open it up super hot to burn it off??... or burn some product I've seen in the store that is suppose to reduce creosote?

Welcome to the forum riah.

Most have touched on the critical things and pen also touched on the burning hot thing. I would like to comment on that too. That idea of open it up to burn it hot and "clean the chimney" thing is from the old days and even then it should never have been done. At best, it is a poor solution because of the safety issue. Do you want to take the chance of burning your house down?

There are some products you can add to the stove and some folks do and have some luck but a much better solution is to burn in such a manner that these things are not a concern. It starts with good dry wood and we find that most folks don't really understand what good dry wood is! It also involves good burning practices and you have to learn how to operate your particular stove. You can learn a lot on weekends when you can be with the stove but also realize you have to change things with the different types of wood.

A wood burner should learn what type of wood he has rather than just saying hardwood. There is a huge difference in hardwoods. For example, oak and cottonwood are both hardwoods but their burning and drying characteristics are totally different. Learn how long each type of wood really needs for drying so you can burn the best. You may get by with 6 months of drying for white ash or soft maple but if you try that on other types of wood you will having the same type mess you already have had. You should be able to run that stove without getting creosote and without the smell. I don't blame your wife at all for not wanting that. I've been in other homes where the smell is terrible and it is not pleasant. It also gives me the headaches so she is not alone.


You mentioned gaskets and there should be some gaskets that you can replace. For example, there should be a gasket around the door. You'll have to determine what size gaskets you need and you can buy those at a hardware along with the sealant.


On that stovepipe clearance at the ceiling. I'd suggest you put some fireproofing material up there as that area can get pretty hot.

Good luck.

 

[begreen]

Greetings rlah. It looks like a combination of factors are causing the problem. First the stove. I have never seen one like this before. The stove looks like it was designed to be more like a fireplace that you can close off at night. It looks like the door is not hinged, but is just held captive by the side brackets. Is that correct? If so I doubt it will ever seal well. Have you tried pulling out the knob on the top or does it just rotate? Often a knob in this location controls a draft damper in the flue passage. You may need to remove the connector from the flue collar to expose it so that you can see how it operates. Some rotate, some pull out.

The connector pipe is the next issue. It should be cemented in place with furnace or stove cement to reduce leakage. Also, does the chimney clean out door fit sloppily? It should be gasketed. If it isn't you can make one by cleaning the edge, then applying a bead of silicone adhesive, let it sit for 5-10 minutes to skin. Then close the door and latch it.

The flue is as important as the stove and dry wood. It is the engine of the system providing draft to pull air into the fire. This is a somewhat short chimney. When it is cold it may not have a strong enough draft to pull the smoke up and out of the flue. When this happens it will backdraft and spill smoke. This will be much worse for starting if there is a flue bypass damper on the stove and it is closed. The trick will be getting the draft established before adding more wood. Supercedars are an excellent fire starter that burn very cleanly. I would use one of these with some dry, small kindling, with the the flue damper open, to establish draft. Only once the draft has been established should a little bit larger wood be added. This will take practice. Do it when your wife is out of the house.

The last thing that may be happening is negative pressure in the basement. This can be compounded by competition for the combustion air. Typical offenders would be the gas furnace running, gas hw heater, dryer, bathroom fan, etc. Negative pressure will also reverse draft. If this is the case, the stove may need its own outdoor air supply. One way to check is to open a window in the basement if there is one.

As others noted, the performance, control and efficiency can be dramatically improved with a more modern stove connected to a liner in the chimney. But if the issue is negative pressure, the stove will still need an external air supply. Hope that helps. If not, keep asking questions. There are lots of smart folks are here to help you.

 

[rlah]

My plate is getting full here... I figured I'd get a boatload of good questions and advice.

rabonz: See more pics: cleaned out base of chimney, inside the transfer pipe (stove to chimney), cement block structure (25â€w x 45â€long) housing the transfer pipe, the top area of this structure, (and my wood pile .

When I cleaned out the chimney base, I was able to measure the opening into the clay tile chimney flue... about 6-1/2†wide opening. But you can see that some of the pipe corroded through at the opening to the chimney and so I pulled it out. It appears to be 6†pipe (?). So there seems to be a neck down from the 8†pipe at the inlet to the apparent 6“ at the chimney base.

I'll respond to others separately.

 

[rlah]

Got the pictures in backward order on previous post... sorry about that.

pen:
You're giving me some hope here. I am happy to inspect/clean the chimney monthly initially to save cost (like you started out doing).
I got the picture from you and others about not burning super hot... "don't smolder... dry wood... clean chimney monthly" -- all things I can do. Then later maybe I can consider going "modern". Thx for the welcome!

 

[Todd]

You have received lots of good advice so far. I will add a couple more points. If your low on cash and just looking to cut down the heating bills using the current system will do it pretty well. I would hire a certified chimney sweep to come out and inspect the whole system and help you get it set up to burn safely and smoke free. Maybe try it this way this year and if you feel good about burning wood more as a primary heat source you can save some money over the next year and upgrade to a new EPA stove and liner.

I think that cricular knob control is for a damper in the stove exhaust collar. It should be left wide open while starting up the stove along with the main air control. Once the fire is established you can play around with them to find a good sweet spot. You should also have thermometers for your stove top and stove pipe, which will help you know whats going on in there.

I've burned a similar stove in a similar outside chimney in a former house and can tell you those outside block chimneys take a long time to heat up and once they do you need to keep them hot or they fill up with creosote fast. Best to burn a little on the hot side with more air and sweep every month.

 

[begreen]

Well that horiz. section of pipe is at least 50% of the issue. You never choke down a stove like that. It looks like that is a creosote factory as installed. The horiz run should be as short as possible and pitched uphill all the way to the flue. Running an undersized and uninsulated pipe through heat-sucking concrete is just asking for problems.

 

[rlah]

Backwoods Savage:
I appreciate you comments on dry wood and hardwoods. I am somewhat familiar with this as I have been a woodworker for the past 5 years... I have a moisture meter and understand how wood dries, mostly through the end grain. I've got some old firewood that tests quite dry and I picked up some downed wood that was mostly dry already by my moisture meter.

I'll look into gasket/sealant type materials at local hardware stores, also there is a fireplace shop in town.

I'll also look into fireproofing the ceiling above the stove per your suggestion... good idea.

 

[rlah]

BeGreen:
I'm surprised my stove seems to be a mystery so far. I figured it was the "chevy" model but I guess not. The door is not hinged... :-S ... it slides down into the side brackets. I notice pictures of other stoves that all seem to be hinged, probably a key to good sealing. I actually don't know how I can seal this door, but I've got to try something. A lot of smoke can escape when I'm trying to light the fire. Will duct tape work?

The knob on top rotates -- see attached pic of outside and inside. 6 holes are exposed when rotated counterclockwise to give the upper chamber some draft. I'm not sure how to use this... I always use the main vent on the door to let air in. What would this upper chamber draft be for? There is no damper in the pipe itself... is that what you mean by "flue damper"?

I'll be looking for the furnace/stove cement products to reduce leakage. And I'll seal the chimney clean-out door per your instructions.

You say my chimney is short... it's about 15' tall. Is that drastically short? I'll be looking into "supercedars" and do some practice when the cooler weather arrives (can't wait).

Negative pressure: although this was addressed before, you mentioned the gas furnace and hot water heater, 2 items I did not think of before. Next time I'll try opening the basement window to the outside that is located about 10 feet away from the stove. I won't be able

 

[rlah]

... I would hire a certified chimney sweep to come out and inspect the whole system and help you get it set up to burn safely and smoke free. Maybe try it this way this year and if you feel good about burning wood more as a primary heat source you can save some money over the next year and upgrade to a new EPA stove and liner.

... You should also have thermometers for your stove top and stove pipe, which will help you know whats going on in there.

I've burned a similar stove in a similar outside chimney in a former house and can tell you those outside block chimneys take a long time to heat up and once they do you need to keep them hot or they fill up with creosote fast. Best to burn a little on the hot side with more air and sweep every month.

I'll look into the cost of a chimney sweep and thermometers. I think I would like to know the temps so I can compare them to what others say and then control things better.

 

[begreen]

That helps. The knob at the top appears to be a sort of primitive secondary air feed to support reburning the unburnt flue gases above the baffle. You would start the fire with just the bottom control open, then as the fire starts taking off, open the top one as you cut back on the primary air control. How much and how to regulate is just seat of the pants because you can't watch the fire burning.

Personally I would dump this stove and get a decent, inexpensive one designed to work with a 6" flue. But if you are determined to see if you can get this one to work, then invest in a stove thermometer so that you can tell by the temperature how well it is doing. I would get two, one for the flue pipe and one for the stove top. Even if you get a new stove they will be helpful in learning how to run the stove well.

I guessed the flue height (thimble to top) at around 12 ft. based on counting the blocks, but wasn't sure where the pipe entered the block. 15' would be adequate for many stoves. But the effective height is reduced by the 2 90 deg. turns and long horiz. run. If there are air leaks in the system (clean out door and thimble sealing) then draft is further diluted and weakened.