Wanting to get serious with our wood stove.

[rlah]

Well that horiz. section of pipe is at least 50% of the issue. You never choke down a stove like that. It looks like that is a creosote factory as installed. The horiz run should be as short as possible and pitched uphill all the way to the flue. Running an undersized and uninsulated pipe through heat-sucking concrete is just asking for problems.

You're right and my recent picture proved it. Even though that pipe is pitched uphill, it does have significant creosote that I've got to clean out before the season starts.
One thing you say confuses me -- "undersized pipe" -- but it is 8" diameter until it necks down close to the chimney base. I wonder if I should be looking into necking down to 6" at the top of the stove and putting a 6" liner inside that horizontal pipe??

 

[begreen]

I wonder if I should be looking into necking down to 6" at the top of the stove and putting a 6" liner inside that horizontal pipe??

Almost there, replace the stove and you have a winner. The stove was designed for 8" pipe so this is not recommended. It would improve the creosote issue, but may not be enough draft.

 

[leeave96]

My vote would be to have a chimney sweep come out and have a high quality sweep of the chimney and inspection of it. If the chimney is OK, then I'd burn it.

It may be a little early to find a used stove vs this fall, but don't forget about some great low cost Englander stoves. You might have a home depot or lowes that have some left overs they are clearing out. If not there, then look at http://www.overstockstoves.com/index.html - this is Englander's online sales deal. Great stoves, great support and great prices.

Also, go to Englander stove's web site and Woodstock stoves web site and download some manuals and other reading material so you can see how your chimney/stove area stacks-up to their specs.

With regard to down drafts during the off season, one thing you might consider is a stove pipe damper. They are not air tight, but could knock down some of the back draft during the summer season.

Stoves are heavy - that's why we have strong brothers, teenagers, co-workers and neighbors. Moving the stove ought to be your least concern.

Good luck,
Bill

 

[rlah]

Almost there, replace the stove and you have a winner. The stove was designed for 8" pipe so this is not recommended. It would improve the creosote issue, but may not be enough draft.

OK, OK. I need to stop looking at a new Echo chainsaw and start looking for a new stove .


Todd: thx for the heads-up tips for stove research. The prices may make me turn back to using this stove for awhile though, we'll see. I'm afraid all this new stuff (stove, thermometers, chimney sweeps, gaskets, probably chimney liner, etc) is going to make me start thinking twice about all this. But I've got such a nice stack of wood that is begging to be burned :smirk:

 

[BrowningBAR]

Almost there, replace the stove and you have a winner. The stove was designed for 8" pipe so this is not recommended. It would improve the creosote issue, but may not be enough draft.

OK, OK. I need to stop looking at a new Echo chainsaw and start looking for a new stove .


Todd: thx for the heads-up tips for stove research. The prices may make me turn back to using this stove for awhile though, we'll see. I'm afraid all this new stuff (stove, thermometers, chimney sweeps, gaskets, probably chimney liner, etc) is going to make me start thinking twice about all this. But I've got such a nice stack of wood that is begging to be burned :smirk:

Might as well look at an Englander stove. You mentioned the budget for this is tight, so you might want to look at the 13 or the 30.

 

[joefrompa]

Rlah,

Tell us about the size of your house, the layout of the basement and the air flow moving to the areas you'd want heated, and whether or not you spend alot of time near the stove.

Then share with us what you could reasonably budget for a serious investment in wood heat (i.e. something that would cut your heating bills by 50%, how much would you pay for that).

Here's my thoughts: that stove is bunk, that piping is bunk, and that chimney is bunk. You'll spend hours of time and possibly $100-200 to get that thing closer to code, and you'll still struggle with it drafting properly or pumping out significant heat.

You can do this on the cheap, especially if you are as handy as you sound. You get an el-cheapo plate steel stove sized properly for your house (the guys on here will help direct you, but the cheapest I've seen that I would buy would be around $500-600 new, but that's also for a smaller house). Then you buy QUALITY stove pipe to angle into that wall and insulated chimney liner running up the chimney. You can re-use that cap.

You can probably move to an EPA stove, insulated liner, and install everything yourself for $1500 or less and you'll get up to $500 back in a tax credit (IIRC). So you might be looking at a $1000 investment.

For that, you'll get enough heat to keep the stove area very toasty and probably a good amount of the upstairs semi-warm. If you and the Mrs. is willing to put up with a bit more chill this winter, you turn down the heat to 65 (or, if you are like me, 60-63 during waking hours and 55 at night).

gotta feed the stove of course, but looks like you are all set there.

This is a serious investment in time and energy. If you think you can work side jobs that would pay you enough to heat your house, it's going to be more efficient use of time vs. dollars. I mark my time as worth $30-40 an hour (personal time value to me). I probably spend 100 hours chopping, stacking, moving wood, and watching the fire....so about $3000-4000 PER YEAR in personal time spent saving ~$1500 a year in heating oil costs. And frankly, the house is less evenly heated and not as well heated if I just used straight oil heat.

But i enjoy it. If you do too, and you have the desire, then it's very rewarding. But go into it knowing what you are doing

 

[raybonz]

Rlah,

Tell us about the size of your house, the layout of the basement and the air flow moving to the areas you'd want heated, and whether or not you spend alot of time near the stove.

Then share with us what you could reasonably budget for a serious investment in wood heat (i.e. something that would cut your heating bills by 50%, how much would you pay for that).

Here's my thoughts: that stove is bunk, that piping is bunk, and that chimney is bunk. You'll spend hours of time and possibly $100-200 to get that thing closer to code, and you'll still struggle with it drafting properly or pumping out significant heat.

You can do this on the cheap, especially if you are as handy as you sound. You get an el-cheapo plate steel stove sized properly for your house (the guys on here will help direct you, but the cheapest I've seen that I would buy would be around $500-600 new, but that's also for a smaller house). Then you buy QUALITY stove pipe to angle into that wall and insulated chimney liner running up the chimney. You can re-use that cap.

You can probably move to an EPA stove, insulated liner, and install everything yourself for $1500 or less and you'll get up to $500 back in a tax credit (IIRC). So you might be looking at a $1000 investment.

For that, you'll get enough heat to keep the stove area very toasty and probably a good amount of the upstairs semi-warm. If you and the Mrs. is willing to put up with a bit more chill this winter, you turn down the heat to 65 (or, if you are like me, 60-63 during waking hours and 55 at night).

gotta feed the stove of course, but looks like you are all set there.

This is a serious investment in time and energy. If you think you can work side jobs that would pay you enough to heat your house, it's going to be more efficient use of time vs. dollars. I mark my time as worth $30-40 an hour (personal time value to me). I probably spend 100 hours chopping, stacking, moving wood, and watching the fire....so about $3000-4000 PER YEAR in personal time spent saving ~$1500 a year in heating oil costs. And frankly, the house is less evenly heated and not as well heated if I just used straight oil heat.

But i enjoy it. If you do too, and you have the desire, then it's very rewarding. But go into it knowing what you are doing

FYI Joe the tax credit for 2011 is 10% and that only applies to the stove and nothing else.. I just replaced my stove and looked into it.. 2010 was 30% and covered install etc... In my case I paid $1850.00 for my T-5 and that equates to $185.00 tax credit still better than nothing plus I reap the benefits of a new stove..

Ray

 

[woodchip]

A warm welcome to the forum from over here

Following on from the very comprehensive advice you have been given by everybody else, just a few thoughts of mine.
The current stove will probably never burn your wood as efficiently as a new one, but the paradox is in the initial high cost of a new stove.
Also, as the seasons move towards the Fall, it may well be that others will be out there looking for stoves, either secondhand, or new.

My thoughts are divided down to lines.
You can either use your stove as it is, improving the safety issues already mentioned, at minimum cost.
Using a certified chimney sweep is a really good way to go, in fact, a good sweep ought to be your new best freind.
Not only will he be able to advise you of what improvements you can do within your budget, but he may well know of someone locally who may be about to change their stove, so you have someone "in the know" keeping their eyes open for you for a suitable secondhand stove.

My second thought is to abandon your stove now, and go for something smaller, ideally something that might fit as close to the wall as your regs permit, so it can vent out of the rear through a short pipe into the chimney, which would be relined with a 6" liner to the top (probably with a soot door slightly lower than at present). This would draft better, with less changes of direction to slow the venting gases. Whilst something smaller might sound mad, an efficient small stove may well be more economical than a larger stove which does not burn that efficiently. That means using a lot less wood, for a lot more heat.

And getting as much heat from your wood as possible is a pretty good aim..... ;-)

 

[raybonz]

Well that horiz. section of pipe is at least 50% of the issue. You never choke down a stove like that. It looks like that is a creosote factory as installed. The horiz run should be as short as possible and pitched uphill all the way to the flue. Running an undersized and uninsulated pipe through heat-sucking concrete is just asking for problems.

+1 BG well said.. This was what I was trying to say.. Mating an 8" round pipe to a 7" square hole effectively reduces the exhaust of the stove in my opinion and creates a bottleneck for flue gasses.. If one can't heat safely with wood or any other fuel then one should not heat at all until the issues are remedied.. The thing is all the problems here can be resolved with a new liner (and preferably an EPA stove) and it would be best to locate the stove in the living area if it has higher ceilings or provide a heat shield on the pipe to protect the ceiling and reduce clearances.. Hard to put all my thoughts into text..

Ray

 

[raybonz]

Well that horiz. section of pipe is at least 50% of the issue. You never choke down a stove like that. It looks like that is a creosote factory as installed. The horiz run should be as short as possible and pitched uphill all the way to the flue. Running an undersized and uninsulated pipe through heat-sucking concrete is just asking for problems.

You're right and my recent picture proved it. Even though that pipe is pitched uphill, it does have significant creosote that I've got to clean out before the season starts.
One thing you say confuses me -- "undersized pipe" -- but it is 8" diameter until it necks down close to the chimney base. I wonder if I should be looking into necking down to 6" at the top of the stove and putting a 6" liner inside that horizontal pipe??

You're on the right track except you need to install a stove that has a 6" exhaust preferably an epa stove... Many have got great deals on Englander stoves at HD for short money...

Ray

 

[begreen]

Almost there, replace the stove and you have a winner. The stove was designed for 8" pipe so this is not recommended. It would improve the creosote issue, but may not be enough draft.

OK, OK. I need to stop looking at a new Echo chainsaw and start looking for a new stove .

Might as well look at an Englander stove. You mentioned the budget for this is tight, so you might want to look at the 13 or the 30.

Good place to start. The 13NC is $710 delivered, the 30NC is $980. You might also check on Buck, Napoleon and Drolet stoves if you have a nearby dealer that is trying to move one. For sizing, we need to know more about the area being heated. What is the sq ftg of the basement, first floor? Is there a stairway nearby that will allow heat to convect upstairs?

 

[Backwoods Savage]

riah, one thing that I don't think has been touche on is if you get a new stove, even a low cost one, you should get a whole lot more heat out of the stove and consequently will use less wood. How much less is difficult to tell in your situation but 30% less is quite common. We burn 50% less and stay a whole lot warmer with the new stove. That is huge!

 

[Danno77]

I'd take just about any new stove, even non-EPA over that thing. Even my Englander 12 would probably eat less wood and heat in a more controllable manner. Okay, not just any new stove. Not a Vogelzang or knockoff Boxwood style. Smething with a glass and gaskets should do.

I know how tight money can be. I wish I had been able to buy the 13 or the 30, but I couldn't, so I didn't. Now I can, so I did! Not sorry for one second that I bought my 12. Really wish this 30 could have been had back then for the pennies I spent on it this last spring.

get the chimney tightened up, maybe gasket that clean out door. I can't see it very well, but it looks like the one I had on my fireplace, and that thing didn't seal for crap. No biggie on a fireplace, but not for what you are doing.

From stovetop to chimney top, do you have 15ft? I think so, because your are in the basement, right?

Pipe reducers are bad, but I think that if one were to use one, they'd want to do so right at the stove. A reduction in the pipe is gonna create turbulence and pressure out in the stack and cause all sorts of problems. This is a moot point if you can ditch the stove. I wish we were closer, I'd let you borrow my 12 for a season 'til you found the stove you wanted.

 

[rlah]

Thx to all for your comments. (Let me know if I should start a new thread on this).

First, I should repeat and expand about our house. As said initially, it's a 1-story (about 1250 ft sq) with a dugout basement underneath - built in 1980 I believe. It's not a full basement as there is a 4' ledge from the foundation to the basement wall on 3 sides. I would guess the basement is about 800 ft sq, all partially finished... we keep it dry and livable as needed. The chimney is on one end (east end) of the house and so that is where the stove must be. My wife does not want a stove on the main floor so it has to go where it's been. The stairway from the basement to the main floor is about midway along the length of the house and there are wide doorways in the basement for free air movement and so the heat will rise to the main floor, at least to some extent. I know this from the 2 days of burning wood last winter. The house seemed toastier, the floor was warmer on the main floor, etc. This is the other main reason to have the wood stove -- to keep the main floor warmer without costing more. ~~ i.e. "free heat". Also, I am viewing this setup to be a supplemental heat source -- would like to save maybe 25 to 50% on natural gas winter heating cost.

We keep the NW bedroom closed off in the winter to save heat cost.

I found out our Lowes and HD box stores don't stock wood stoves. So I checked out our Menards and was surprised to find several models of Vogelzang and quite a supply of wood burning accessories at reasonable prices. My wife suggested that I attempt to seal up our old Peacock stove but I told her the Hearth.com guys suggest otherwise.
The Vogelzang was not a brand recommended here but I suspect one of their units would work. Most are "EPA". So here's what I'm looking at:
Performer: $899 (EPA, 119,000 BTU, 20" log length)
Shiloh: $499 (EPA, on sale, 68,000 btu, 1200 sq ft, 16" log)
Defender $499 (EPA, 68,000 BTU max, 1200 sq ft, 16" log)
Frontiersman: $299 (NOT EPA, on sale, 16" log length, 1000 sq ft, 102,000 btu)

SuperVent SS Flex liner, 25 ft: $335 (special order, 1 week)

Menards has a 11% off sale this week off any thing in stock at the store.

Question 1: Any comments/suggestions which stove? I suppose I should lean towards an EPA stove (Shiloh?) although the low cost Frontiersman sure seems enticing, but maybe not enough heat... Is the "Performer" a possible choice if not running a full size fire?

Question 2: Is installing flex SS liner a DIY job possibly?
- - - - - - -
I've got calls in to the local chimney sweeps waiting to get more info on the cost of a visit from them.

 

[Danno77]

Thx to all for your comments. (Let me know if I should start a new thread on this).

First, I should repeat and expand about our house. As said initially, it's a 1-story (about 1250 ft sq) with a dugout basement underneath - built in 1980 I believe. It's not a full basement as there is a 4' ledge from the foundation to the basement wall on 3 sides. I would guess the basement is about 800 ft sq, all partially finished... we keep it dry and livable as needed. The chimney is on one end (east end) of the house and so that is where the stove must be. My wife does not want a stove on the main floor so it has to go where it's been. The stairway from the basement to the main floor is about midway along the length of the house and there are wide doorways in the basement for free air movement and so the heat will rise to the main floor, at least to some extent. I know this from the 2 days of burning wood last winter. The house seemed toastier, the floor was warmer on the main floor, etc. This is the other main reason to have the wood stove -- to keep the main floor warmer without costing more. ~~ i.e. "free heat". Also, I am viewing this setup to be a supplemental heat source -- would like to save maybe 25 to 50% on natural gas winter heating cost.

We keep the NW bedroom closed off in the winter to save heat cost.

I found out our Lowes and HD box stores don't stock wood stoves. So I checked out our Menards and was surprised to find several models of Vogelzang and quite a supply of wood burning accessories at reasonable prices. My wife suggested that I attempt to seal up our old Peacock stove but I told her the Hearth.com guys suggest otherwise.
The Vogelzang was not a brand recommended here but I suspect one of their units would work. Most are "EPA". So here's what I'm looking at:
Performer: $899 (EPA, 119,000 BTU, 20" log length)
Shiloh: $499 (EPA, on sale, 68,000 btu, 1200 sq ft, 16" log)
Defender $499 (EPA, 68,000 BTU max, 1200 sq ft, 16" log)
Frontiersman: $299 (NOT EPA, on sale, 16" log length, 1000 sq ft, 102,000 btu)

SuperVent SS Flex liner, 25 ft: $335 (special order, 1 week)

Menards has a 11% off sale this week off any thing in stock at the store.

Question 1: Any comments/suggestions which stove? I suppose I should lean towards an EPA stove (Shiloh?) although the low cost Frontiersman sure seems enticing, but maybe not enough heat... Is the "Performer" a possible choice if not running a full size fire?

Question 2: Is installing flex SS liner a DIY job possibly?
- - - - - - -
I've got calls in to the local chimney sweeps waiting to get more info on the cost of a visit from them.

Those prices are all good. 500 bucks for a stove with secondaries is pretty awesome, IMO. I know people don't normally recommend the VZ stoves, but at those price points it's hard to pass them up. Seriously, though, the Frontiersman is probably a better stove than what you have, but if you can swing it, those others would be better. I kinda like the looks of the Defender.

 

[BrowningBAR]

The Vogelzang was not a brand recommended here but I suspect one of their units would work. Most are "EPA". So here's what I'm looking at:
Performer: $899 (EPA, 119,000 BTU, 20" log length)
Shiloh: $499 (EPA, on sale, 68,000 btu, 1200 sq ft, 16" log)
Defender $499 (EPA, 68,000 BTU max, 1200 sq ft, 16" log)
Frontiersman: $299 (NOT EPA, on sale, 16" log length, 1000 sq ft, 102,000 btu)

Question 1: Any comments/suggestions which stove? I suppose I should lean towards an EPA stove (Shiloh?) although the low cost Frontiersman sure seems enticing, but maybe not enough heat... Is the "Performer" a possible choice if not running a full size fire?

Do not believe those BTU ratings. The Shiloh and Defender are small stoves. They have a 1.32 CU FT firebox. If you are going to pay $900 (the performer) for a stove that only offers a 2.13 cu. ft. firebox, go with an Englander. And there is no way the Performer heats a 2,200 sq ft house. 1,500, maybe.

 

[begreen]

Ignore their optimistic btu ratings. Of the Vogelzang stoves listed I would get the Performer. It is only a 2.1 cu ft stove, so for sure it is not going to be too big. The others are small, in the 1.3 cu ft range. Given the choice, my preference would still be an Englander.

 

[joefrompa]

Get an Englander 30 for the price named, delivered to your house. That's worth $50-100 right there IMHO. You'll get a firebox that will heat your entire house. Pay another $300-500 to get an insulated flex liner and appropriate new 6" stove pipe and install it yourself (very easy to install IMHO).

For less than $1500 (and $100 back in tax credit on that), you'll have a stove where you can pretty much turn off the heat as much as you want as long as you keep feeding the stove. It'll give you long burns too.

You mentioned coming up to retirement - nows a good time to get a stove that will last for you and be reliable. Vogelzang's are probably 5 year stoves. Englanders should be a 10+ year stove in my opinion - i.e. 10 years with good burning practices without needing to worry about it.

If you invest in a new stove, which i recommend, do it right. You'll never rememebr $200-300 difference in a year or two, but you'll remember the quality of the stove you bought.

 

[fishingpol]

I think that if you buy a decent stove and liner, it should perform very well for you. Secondly, it will keep you warmer and, as already mentioned, less wood usage. Lastly, it should pay itself off in a few years by reducing heating costs. There is lots of good info in this thread already, and it looks like the direction is going towards a new or newer stove. You are going in the right direction, and the members here will get you where you need to be.

Possibly, with a better set up, your wife may be convinced about woodstove usage and its' benefits. We are all here to take a bite out of our heating bills.

 

[rlah]

Well I'm getting more confused... but not because of forum members. I had a 30-year veteran (and well respected in our area) chimney sweep visit me this afternoon. Here are some comments he had:
1) My chimney looks fine, no strong need to get a liner. (no need for him to clean the chimney the way it was)
2) the horizontal run is a problem (confirming other comments on the forum). He suggested trying to eliminate the 90 degree bend above the stove by changing the pipe to run more directly from the stove to the inlet... kinda like two 45-degree bends, but not quite. This would eliminate about 18" of horizontal run.
3) my old Peacock stove is a good old stove... not necessarily obsolete. His point was these are easier to clean than the newer ones with more working parts and tubes. He wasn't knocking the newer stoves, just not ready to throw out the old yet. He looked at the slide-out door and thought it fit quite tight along the top edge - no slop or play when closed. He did think that some flat gasket material (not rope) could be used along the sides of the door to seal a little better.
4) when I discussed the choice of stoves at Menards, he preferred the mid-range stoves because he felt they would be run hotter and therefore more efficiently.
5) safety issues were similar to the forum suggestions but he noted that my setup is not too dangerous now with concrete floor and block wall (except for the carpet and 2x4 feet pads)

I'm doing a lot of thinking and research. I'm reporting the above info not to strike down forum members suggesting "buy new", but rather to inform all here what a first-hand look by a veteran sweep had to say. I'm not convinced of anything yet. My wife is suggesting going back to running the old stove for a year to save on cost... she says she'll try to put up with the smell as long as I get better on improving this problem by better firestarting procedures. We both wonder that even a new stove will still have some smell because the firestarting is still the same -- the door has to be open to get the fire started.

I appreciate the comments on the expected life span of the various brands of stoves... I had not thought of life-span on these before, thinking that they lasted indefinitely. What wears out or burns out on these things? If I calculate right, the Menards Performer price is $800 after their 11% off sale. The Englander 30-NCH at HD is $1200 delivered, which makes a difference of $400. I'm not necessarily against paying the $400 if I can be convinced it is worth it. I.e. what can go wrong with the Vogelzang?

And I appreciate the comments here on the size of new stove because I would rather get the right stove the first time instead of being disappointed. If I calculate correctly, the Englander 30 firebox is over 3.5 cu. ft, quite a bit larger. I see it is over 100 lbs heavier than the Performer.

I'm planning tomorrow to visit a local fireplace store and a hardware store more known for being a serious dealer in wood stoves. My chimney sweep suggested I see them... he is not a dealer for any of this stuff, he just cleans them.

 

[BrowningBAR]

3) my old Peacock stove is a good old stove... not necessarily obsolete. His point was these are easier to clean than the newer ones with more working parts and tubes. He wasn't knocking the newer stoves, just not ready to throw out the old yet. He looked at the slide-out door and thought it fit quite tight along the top edge - no slop or play when closed. He did think that some flat gasket material (not rope) could be used along the sides of the door to seal a little better.

Coming from someone that has a pre-epa stove, a cat stove, and a non-cat EPA stove (burn tubes), I disagree.

 

[begreen]

#1 - This will depend on the stove. But it may work if #2 improves draft a bit. Still, starting a cold exterior chimney that is oversized can be a challenge.
#2 - I agree and was thinking along those lines
#3 - Wrong. This shows an unfamiliarity with EPA stoves. Some are more complex, some are not. All will burn cleaner and more efficiently. And the complexity increase is minor, except in some of the downdraft stoves.
#4 - I would strongly recommend against getting the smaller VG stoves. The uninsulated basement walls are going to suck up about 25-30% of the btus produced by the stove and send them right into the earth. And the small firebox is going to mean frequent trips to the basement for refills.

 

[leeave96]

I don't mean to be rude, but I think you need another chimney sweep guy. The advice you see on this forum is great advice and squares with every stove manual I have read.

At Overstockstoves.com, you can get a 50-TNC30, which is the Englander 30 for $980 delivered.

I think that with that stove, your furnance may never need to come on again unless you are out of town for a few days.

Good luck,
Bill

 

[certified106]

I don't mean to be rude, but I think you need another chimney sweep guy. The advice you see on this forum is great advice and squares with every stove manual I have read.

At Overstockstoves.com, you can get a 50-TNC30, which is the Englander 30 for $980 delivered.

I think that with that stove, your furnance may never need to come on again unless you are out of town for a few days.

Good luck,
Bill

Gotta say I kind of agree with Bill.....I dont' think the chimney sweep was giving you the best advice on keeping the stove.

With that being said there are still alot of people around me that swear by there pre EPA stoves and heat their houses all winter long with them. However if you choose to keep that stove PLEASE get it hooked up correctly and get anything that could catch on fire a minimum of 36-48" away from it. you will burn alot more wood than would be needed with and Englander 30 and it will not burn it very cleanly.

 

[dafattkidd]

rlah,

I completely understand being on a tight budget. If you could muster up the cash to install the NC30 I'm very confident you will get that money back before the end of this winter in heating savings, and tax rebates. I paid significantly more for my insert and I made that back half way through my second winter. I think if you go with that NC30 I bet you'll be on here in December thanking us and praising God for your incredible wood stove that heats your whole house and has cut your heating bills by thousands.

So that's my two cents. Goos luck with it. I can understand the nostalgia of getting that old beast going, but if you can make get that NC30 in there you're gonna be one happy woodburner. Good luck!