2018-19 Blaze King Performance Thread Part 2 (Everything BK)

[Diabel]

Nice details on the bypass and what to look for in case of a brain fart!

How come you beaver counterpart is not active on hearth.com?

 

[Ashful]

Well, first it's not a "non cat" that would have such a concern...it's a stove without a thermostat.

Second, the paint curing smell has also happened when a poor drafting chimney is corrected and the stove connected to it now is properly drafting...and hits a new peak operating temperature.

Third, the retainers are certainly fine. They can fail when repeated high temps are achieved with bypass open.

Look inside the stove with a flashlight. Aim the light at the bypass plate...bottom side. With bypass closed and cammed over, is the plate appear to have a flat mating surface? If bypass retainers were damaged, extremely rare by the way, they would sag down and would look "droopy" of sorts.

I'm in KOP Thursday, Friday and Saturday until noon. Anyone makes it, free drink and appetizers! Just PM me....and you don't have to own a BK, so long as you are part of the Hearth family!

Awesome. Thanks, man!

Will call you if I can make KoP, always tough with kids activities during the week!

 

[drstorm]

Well, first it's not a "non cat" that would have such a concern...it's a stove without a thermostat.

Second, the paint curing smell has also happened when a poor drafting chimney is corrected and the stove connected to it now is properly drafting...and hits a new peak operating temperature.

Third, the retainers are certainly fine. They can fail when repeated high temps are achieved with bypass open.

Look inside the stove with a flashlight. Aim the light at the bypass plate...bottom side. With bypass closed and cammed over, is the plate appear to have a flat mating surface? If bypass retainers were damaged, extremely rare by the way, they would sag down and would look "droopy" of sorts.

I'm in KOP Thursday, Friday and Saturday until noon. Anyone makes it, free drink and appetizers! Just PM me....and you don't have to own a BK, so long as you are part of the Hearth family!

I'm about one and a half hours north on the PA Turnpike but don't think we can make it down in time Saturday.Let us know if you are ever in the Scranton/Wilkes Barre area though.

 

[Diabel]

@Ashful , just a thought.....maybe your oak is more ashful than other soft spieces? I burn tons of hemlock with no issues with cat clogging. 24’ stack.

 

[lsucet]

@Ashful , just a thought.....maybe your oak is more ashful than other soft spieces? I burn tons of hemlock with no issues with cat clogging. 24’ stack.

I think is related to SS cat. Family member here had a plugged cat a few weeks back, they also has an Ashford with SS cat. Their chimney is just a little taller than the minimum requirements. It is uncertain if they are having overdraft conditions.

 

[Diabel]

I think is related to SS cat. Family member here had a plugged cat a few weeks back, they also has an Ashford with SS cat. Their chimney is just a little taller than the minimum requirements. It is uncertain if they are having overdraft conditions.

Agree, the SS cat is more prone to clogging in my opinion. I was making a joke toward @Ashful though.

 

[maple1]

Draft varies with temperature. How is that handled in their recommendations. The attached pressure is in Pa, multiply by .004 to get Inches-H20

True, it does. But that chart is based on difference between stack & outdoor temps. Assuming consistent burning burn to burn & day to day, that would mean the dT is mostly a function of outside temp changes. Which in day to day terms, a 50° change would be quiet drastic. Picking mid-chart somewhat common (I suspect) values of 15' chimney & 400 pipe temps, a 50° dT would only be about .01" of draft variance. Draft specs are usually given to a range (e.g. 0.04"-0.06"), I would tune the draft to the upper of the range at max draft conditions (cold outside & full burn).

 

[maple1]

I don’t understand this graph. How do I measure draft? How do I ensure my install is legit? What is Pa and H2O.

Draft is measured with a manometer. A common reasonable priced one is a Dwyer Mark II Model 25 - one example. PA is pascals, H20 is inches of water column - measures of draft. 'Legit' covers all kinds of things aside from draft. But just speaking of draft, you check it by measuring with a manometer when burning. If there is a pipe damper in place, you'd measure between the stove outlet & the pipe damper - closing the damper would decrease draft the stove sees.

 

[Sawset]

True, it does. But that chart is based on difference between stack & outdoor temps. Assuming consistent burning burn to burn & day to day, that would mean the dT is mostly a function of outside temp changes. Which in day to day terms, a 50° change would be quiet drastic. Picking mid-chart somewhat common (I suspect) values of 15' chimney & 400 pipe temps, a 50° dT would only be about .01" of draft variance. Draft specs are usually given to a range (e.g. 0.04"-0.06"), I would tune the draft to the upper of the range at max draft conditions (cold outside & full burn).

Good points. Tune to max draft to avoid damage (cold outside & full burn). Maybe less important, I do notice that on very cold days the draft at startup is very strong (more and quicker heat), whereas on warmer days draft is weaker. Draft values can easily change by 2-10 times at startup depending on outside temps and the resulting dT. Just an observation, and something of interest that I see on cold days vs warm.

 

[lsucet]

Draft reading is affected also by wind . The minimum breeze going by can give you a false reading of what really is your actual draft. I have been able to measured draft on cold and calm morning, wind wise, and reading are way different including that it is cold outside, 17 - 21 degrees.

 

[Sawset]

and reading are way different

How much difference do you notice that you can attribute to wind. It's probably very specific to trees and roof layout etc, but just curious.

 

[maple1]

Draft reading is affected also by wind . The minimum breeze going by can give you a false reading of what really is your actual draft. I have been able to measured draft on cold and calm morning, wind wise, and reading are way different including that it is cold outside, 17 - 21 degrees.

But if your draft readings are affected by winds, that's not a false reading. It is what the stove is actually seeing for draft when the wind is blowing. Which can make burning when windy out kind of tricky.

 

[lsucet]

How much difference do you notice that you can attribute to wind. It's probably very specific to trees and roof layout etc, but just curious.

depends how strong is the wind, steady, gust etc.

 

[Ashful]

Just to follow up, stove was down to coals and ash this morning, so I stuck my head in as far as I could stand it, and closed the bypass. It seems to still be straight and flat. Man, these stoves can take a beating!

I’ll endeavor to not do that again, but I guess it’s bound to happen, eventually.

 

[lsucet]

But if your draft readings are affected by winds, that's not a false reading. It is what the stove is actually seeing for draft when the wind is blowing. Which can make burning when windy out kind of tricky.

I do think it is not a representation of what actually your system is doing to take into account if having an issue, if overdraft is causing it. maybe i am wrong. Lets say somebody with poor draft and measured draft on a windy day it can have a result that poor draft is not his/her issue.

 

[Sawset]

I have one more question that's been in the back of my mind. If a narrow window of draft is important for operating a stove for good performance, and draft can vary tremendously based on temperature, wind speed, direction, etc, and outside barometric pressures too, is there such a thing as barometric damper like device that could sense draft, and compensate for draft applied vs draft required. Kind of like an automated key damper, only one that compensates in real time.

 

[lsucet]

I have one more question that's been in the back of my mind. If a narrow window of draft is important for operating a stove for good performance, and draft can vary tremendously based on temperature, wind speed, direction, etc, and outside barometric pressures too, is there such a thing as barometric damper like device that could sense draft, and compensate for draft applied vs draft required. Kind of like an automated key damper, only one that compensates in real time.

There is but it is not allowed/recommended for wood stoves.

 

[jetsam]

That's a tough nut to crack using only mechanical devices. Not so tough if you're allowed to use electronics.

Building a stove-friendly barometric damper requires heated air on both sides of the damper, and even if you build a stove with a heated-air port that is isolated from combustion air, now you are creating a variable offset in the the pressure and velocity of the air on that side... so now IT needs a bimetallic coil and its own damper...

The simple answer is electronic manometer, manual key damper, stepper motor to turn the key. Classic raspberry pi project.

 

[Sawset]

I shouldn't have mentioned barometric anything - definitely a no-no. Automated key damper is more like it with a positive blocking effect. If there are thermostatic controls that work very well now, seems like a next step could be to automate the draft also and have a complete system. Maybe there isn't enough need. There are a few other threads at the moment that could possibly benefit.

 

[Ashful]

Guys,

There has been a ton of talk on draft this season, too much, really. I think people are making it out to be a much more important issue, than it really is. People have been running these BK stoves with very little awareness of draft, for many years.

I was running an Ashford 30 on a 30 foot insulated 6” chimney with 3x the recommended draft, with absolutely no control problems. It ran perfectly, the only issue I was having was that I could clog SteelCats by running the stove on high for extended periods.

Other than one claim in the last half dozen years, I’ve not seen anyone on this forum having this issue with Princess or King models.

I don’t want people to get the impression that you need to dial your draft down to within +/- 0.01”WC of nominal, it is simply not true. For the stove nerds, who want to run right on the bleeding edge of maximum efficiency, I think the manometer and key damper are a useful tool... but it’s by no means a necessity for 99.9% of installations.

We should really getting back to more important things, like debating the swoosh vs. the old numbers label, on the thermostat.

 

[jetsam]

Guys,

There has been a ton of talk on draft this season, too much, really. I think people are making it out to be a much more important issue, than it really is. People have been running these BK stoves with very little awareness of draft, for many years.

I was running an Ashford 30 on a 30 foot insulated 6” chimney with 3x the recommended draft, with absolutely no control problems. It ran perfectly, the only issue I was having was that I could clog SteelCats by running the stove on high. I guess it probably also ran a little hotter than others, on wide-open-throttle, but it never caused any damage.

Other than one claim in the last half dozen years, I’ve not seen anyone on this forum having this issue with Princess or King models.

I don’t want people to get the impression that you need to dial your draft down to within +/- 0.01”WC of nominal, it is simply not true. For the stove nerds, who want to run right on the bleeding edge of maximum efficiency, I think the manometer and key damper are a useful tool... but it’s by no means a necessity for 99.9% of installations.

Shouldn't be discounted either though. Remember the one guy with high draft and a hole in his door gasket?

It is true that certain persons read this stuff and scuttle off to post "Look at all the PROBLEMS", when the discussion is in fact (as you just said) geeks geeking, and not end users experiencing an issue.

Guys,

There has been a ton of talk on draft this season, too much, really.

THEY WEREN'T TALKING ABOUT THE DIAL STICKER. IT'S A WIN

 

[Ashful]

THEY WEREN'T TALKING ABOUT THE DIAL STICKER. IT'S A WIN

Went back and fixed my post. ;-)

 

[webby3650]

Guys,

There has been a ton of talk on draft this season, too much, really. I think people are making it out to be a much more important issue, than it really is. People have been running these BK stoves with very little awareness of draft, for many years.

I was running an Ashford 30 on a 30 foot insulated 6” chimney with 3x the recommended draft, with absolutely no control problems. It ran perfectly, the only issue I was having was that I could clog SteelCats by running the stove on high for extended periods. I guess it probably also ran a little hotter than others, on wide-open-throttle, but it never caused any damage.

Other than one claim in the last half dozen years, I’ve not seen anyone on this forum having this issue with Princess or King models.

I don’t want people to get the impression that you need to dial your draft down to within +/- 0.01”WC of nominal, it is simply not true. For the stove nerds, who want to run right on the bleeding edge of maximum efficiency, I think the manometer and key damper are a useful tool... but it’s by no means a necessity for 99.9% of installations.

We should really getting back to more important things, like debating the swoosh vs. the old numbers label, on the thermostat.

Thank you! The draft discussion has gotten really old. I could really see it scaring a lot of people off, it’s just not nearly as important as many have made it out to be.

 

[jetsam]

Went back and fixed my post. ;-)

This forum needs a "dislike" button...

 

[lsucet]

Well new people coming to the forum and reading past post related, of course they have question. They want to get performance and do things by the book too. Disliking their post is not a good welcome.