2017-18 Blaze King Performance Thread PART 2 (Everything BK)

[BKVP]

How could the EPA have required four different burn rates 40 years ago when there were no EPA certified stoves? That would be 1977. Didn't the first EPA certified stoves comes out well into the 1980s?

Cordwood testing is interesting. Whose cordwood? Our doug fir or the Oak of the east? I did notice that WA was only allowing wood boilers tested with doug fir cordwood and that there were actually some manufacturers that were approved. Still no warm air furnaces, not even the mighty kuuma, that have passed the test.

I'm really liking the fresh ceramic cat in my princess during this cold snap. So much control and so little visible smoke!

They grandfathered in the Oregon method from 1983-84, which became method 28. Now method 28 R.

 

[BKVP]

And when the power goes off?? A few years ago, we were out for 12 days. Simple well designed and implemented mechanical controls are hard to beat. When a servo motor jambs up or an electronics assembly goes bad will you have a fire raging out of control? The more stuff included in a control system, the less reliable. The BK control has 3 moving parts. Ultra reliable long term. Perfected over the decades.

Think of tegs. With continuous flame and a dome built of thermal electric generator, you could run without power...from an outlet that is.

 

[BKVP]

Ahh! I don’t have any kind of special reloading procedure, I’ve never damaged one. I’m sure most of our customers don’t either, we rarely ever see a damaged cat on a BK.

These forums are the top 1% or less of real, experienced wood burners such as yourself. When someone has an issue and won’t listen to tech support, we send them here. That is why the “issues” are concentrated on this site. Thankfully most are resolved fairly quickly.

 

[jetsam]

I have clogged one of my steelcats a few times each year with fly ash, only when running the stove wide open. The openings on a ceramic cat are larger, and I suspect less likely to clog.

That said, for the sake of thermal shock alone, I don't see myself making the switch. I run my stove on high, open the bypass, open the door, load more ice-cold wood, and then close the door and bypass, all inside of 60 seconds on a hot reload. I'm not dealing with the wait times required to repeat that procedure safely with a ceramic cat.

I go almost that fast, and my ceramic cat looked pretty good after 2 years. It's into its third year now, after a vinegar bath this summer. It's glowing as we speak, and has clocked easily over 10,000 hours. (It is not nearly as frisky as it used to be, though.)

I can't speak for the other factors as I haven't tried a steel cat yet, but someone with your burn hours per year shouldn't let thermal shock be a huge factor in their decision making.

 

[Poindexter]

I am pretty much agreement with ashful , again . As another burner who does lots and lots of hot reloads, giving away the thermal shock resistance of the steel cat because a ceramic cat might be cheaper to purchase seems likely to be a false economy for me. I will read reports from whoever tries it with interest, but it will be curiosity interest, not with an itchy trigger finger on my visa card.

One other thing i bring up a time or two every year, i just dont seem to be explaining what i am trying to say just right to connect with other minds... just because your combustor is hot enough to be active doesnt mean it is active.

You could look at the oil pressure gauge in your car and see 45psi, but that doesnt mean the motor is running. Sure, the oil pump is spinning, but by itself 45 psi oil pressure does not mean you can let the clutch out and drive away.

 

[Poindexter]

These forums are the top 1% or less of real, experienced wood burners such as yourself. When someone has an issue and won’t listen to tech support, we send them here. That is why the “issues” are concentrated on this site. Thankfully most are resolved fairly quickly.

I love that. If BK tech support can't help a customer... Imma pour another glass of wine.

 

[Woody Stover]

the whole thermostat thing can't be much of a secret after all these years. But you wonder why no-one else seems to make a similar product.

"All these years" started back in the '70s. My BIL's VC Resolute III, built in '78, has a thermostat. Maybe a lot of other makers these days don't bother with a thermo is because it's really not that big a deal to many folks. The only benefit that would be usable to me is that the thermo would open up at the end and burn down the coals faster, keeping the stove top a little hotter and making more room sooner for a full reload. But the coals are usually pretty low if I just let it go, and I can just run a poker through the ashes and drop them through the grate for more room. I don't really need a supposedly more even heat output since the temp in the house doesn't seem to vary by more than a few degrees over a 10-12 hour run for my little 1.5 cu.ft. Keystone in average winter temps here..and my house isn't insulated or sealed all that well.

How could the EPA have required four different burn rates 40 years ago when there were no EPA certified stoves? That would be 1977. Didn't the first EPA certified stoves comes out well into the 1980s?

Hey, yeah...

I'm really liking the fresh ceramic cat in my princess during this cold snap. So much control and so little visible smoke!

I found that my ceramic cat fires up a little slower than the steel, but still usually only takes 20 minutes or so on a cold start to be active. Sometimes less.

I wish I knew how many hours were on the ceramic I'm running now. It came with the stove in 2011 but I intermittently ran steelies as well. It's gotta have a couple full seasons, maybe closer to three. None of the chips out of the face, cracking or crumbling that I often read about here. The thing looks pristine. Like webby says, there's not that much difference between the two and they both work fine.

I have clogged one of my steelcats a few times each year with fly ash, only when running the stove wide open. The openings on a ceramic cat are larger, and I suspect less likely to clog.
That said, for the sake of thermal shock alone, I don't see myself making the switch. I run my stove on high, open the bypass, open the door, load more ice-cold wood, and then close the door and bypass, all inside of 60 seconds on a hot reload. I'm not dealing with the wait times required to repeat that procedure safely with a ceramic cat.

My screen catches most of the dust. I might take out the cat and brush it once a season..if I feel like it.
Yeah if you run it like that, closing the bypass on a hot cat without first burning a little moisture out of the fresh wood, I'd say you'd be a prime candidate for a crumbled ceramic cat. As an aside, you have a rather aggressive demeanor, haven't you?

 

[Poindexter]

So here is the December 2017 Poindexter challenge. This one really is 20 bucks, not (i promise) "20 bucks" that turns into 42 bucks on amazon prime and you need a sensor with it.

Go to Lowes-Depot and get a 20 pound bag of hardwood lump charcoal. Not briquettes, hardwood lump. I use Cowboy brand, i have room for 10 bags of it, 200#.

Briquettes are made out of coal powder with linestone dust in it, and a crap ton of binders. When the coal powder burns away you can see the linestone and think you are looking at ash, plus you are getting glue smoke on your food, and burning coal in BK stoves is proscribed in the manual.

So get hardwood lump. I am paying $19.95/ bag for this stuff up here, after paying for shipping to Seattle, and shipping from seattle to fairbanks, and the L-D stock holders getting their cut too. Oughta be lots cheaper in the lower 48.

Charcoal retorts are fascinating beasties. I got into TLUDs after my BK was installed, but good charcoal is pretty much pure carbon with all the sap and wood gas driven out of it, and there is more than one avenue available.

If Cowboy brand hardwood lump wasnt pretty near pure carbon my smoked salmon candy would taste like tree sap, but it doesnt.

So you got your bag of hardwood lump charcoal, essentially pure carbon, and you got some hot coals in your stove and your combustor is "active."

Do your usual reload process, but use 2 quarts of hardwood lump instead of a boxfull of cord wood.

Leave your tstat on high, engage your combustor and see how high that needle really goes.

Just because a combustor is hot enough to be active does not mean it is actually doing any useful work.

Use your leftover hardwood lump next time you grill food. If you cant taste the difference you are less likely to have smoke smells coming out of your BK stove than i am.

 

[Poindexter]

After you have spent 30 minutes thinking you have learned something, do your reload cycle again, only this time load a single 16" piece of kiln dried 2x4 or a similar sized split of cord wood right on top of your coals.

Close the door. Engage the combustor. Leave the tsat on high. Watch the needle for another 30 minutes.

Now you have learned something.

Having an "active" combustor in the coaling stage might allow you to have a smug smile when you show up at a Prius club meeting in a 67 Chevelle, for having converted a few molecules of CO to CO2 with your snazzy platinum plated combustor; but it won't heat the (my) back bedroom(s) in cold (Alaska cold) weather.

 

[oldbluedeer]

Question related to smoke smell, and how to avoid running on the "ragged edge of design parameters":

For the same stove, chimney system, outside air temperature, wood, etc: For the sake of this conversation, let's say I get it started, close the bypass when the cat meter reaches 10:00, load it to the gills when the cat reaches 12:00, close the bypass, run it for 45 minutes, and then slowly damper it down for the long burn after the meter has reached 2-3pm.

Will the optimum damper setting for the long burn be any different if I had only loaded 1/2 stove of wood (instead of full up)? Does a large load of wood require a higher damper setting, for example, because more burning wood requires more O2? Or does the large load of wood simply create more draft and suck more O2 through the inlet with the damper set the same?

 

[moresnow]

let's say I get it started, close the bypass when the cat meter reaches 10:00, load it to the gills when the cat reaches 12:00, close the bypass, run it for 45 minutes, and then slowly damper it down for the long burn after the meter has reached 2-3pm.

Are you only starting on a partial load for some reason? Are you essentially re-starting the start up routine from scratch as the cat reaches 12 by repeating the open bypass, open the door and reload routine? Believe you could save yourself considerable time/effort by starting, or reloading once every time. One round of bypass open. Load and start. Close bypass when correctly indicated on cat gauge. Fully involve the load in the party. Reduce air after your load has gotten to its happy place! Mine gets a full load every time. No more starting a fire on a light kindling load and futzing with it down the road by adding more wood. Guessing most here may agree?

 

[BKVP]

"All these years" started back in the '70s. My BIL's VC Resolute III, built in '78, has a thermostat. Maybe a lot of other makers these days don't bother with a thermo is because it's really not that big a deal to many folks. The only benefit that would be usable to me is that the thermo would open up at the end and burn down the coals faster, keeping the stove top a little hotter and making more room sooner for a full reload. But the coals are usually pretty low if I just let it go, and I can just run a poker through the ashes and drop them through the grate for more room. I don't really need a supposedly more even heat output since the temp in the house doesn't seem to vary by more than a few degrees over a 10-12 hour run for my little 1.5 cu.ft. Keystone in average winter temps here..and my house isn't insulated or sealed all that well.
Hey, yeah...

I wish I knew how many hours were on the ceramic I'm running now. It came with the stove in 2011 but I intermittently ran steelies as well. It's gotta have a couple full seasons, maybe closer to three. None of the chips out of the face, cracking or crumbling that I often read about here. The thing looks pristine. Like webby says, there's not that much difference between the two and they both work fine.
My screen catches most of the dust. I might take out the cat and brush it once a season..if I feel like it.
Yeah if you run it like that, closing the bypass on a hot cat without first burning a little moisture out of the fresh wood, I'd say you'd be a prime candidate for a crumbled ceramic cat. As an aside, you have a rather aggressive demeanor, haven't you?

The thermostat springs in the 1970’s could be bought off the shelf. In fact, a very well known manufacturer at one time purchased them from our company. However, with four burn rates with very narrow definitions for each, hitting the actual burn rate that you are aiming for can be very, very frustrating. Imagine the run is going just fine, but a large piece of fuel collapses forward and block the air flow. It can slow the burn rate and you miss the run you intended. We’re not permitted to adjust the air during the test, so you just had a very costly test run.

In most cases you suspend the test, advise EPA of the reason, and try again in 30+ days. Having a hole in the bottom of the stove with a blade attached to a rod and placing it in a proven position, well that is a whole lot easier to hit the run you’re aiming for....unless the fuel collapses in some unanticipated way.

Nothing’s perfect in this game.

 

[BKVP]

After you have spent 30 minutes thinking you have learned something, do your reload cycle again, only this time load a single 16" piece of kiln dried 2x4 or a similar sized split of cord wood right on top of your coals.

Close the door. Engage the combustor. Leave the tsat on high. Watch the needle for another 30 minutes.

Now you have learned something.

Having an "active" combustor in the coaling stage might allow you to have a smug smile when you show up at a Prius club meeting in a 67 Chevelle, for having converted a few molecules of CO to CO2 with your snazzy platinum plated combustor; but it won't heat the (my) back bedroom(s) in cold (Alaska cold) weather.

You know, I don’t need $20 bucks that bad! Besides, I’ll just come to your house to watch the experiment.

 

[SuperJ]

Question related to smoke smell, and how to avoid running on the "ragged edge of design parameters":

For the same stove, chimney system, outside air temperature, wood, etc: For the sake of this conversation, let's say I get it started, close the bypass when the cat meter reaches 10:00, load it to the gills when the cat reaches 12:00, close the bypass, run it for 45 minutes, and then slowly damper it down for the long burn after the meter has reached 2-3pm.

Will the optimum damper setting for the long burn be any different if I had only loaded 1/2 stove of wood (instead of full up)? Does a large load of wood require a higher damper setting, for example, because more burning wood requires more O2? Or does the large load of wood simply create more draft and suck more O2 through the inlet with the damper set the same?

I think you're overthinking it... Once the your above 10pm engage the cat, beyond that the meter reading doesn't give much useful information. A higher needle setting doesn't necessarily mean more BTU/hr, it just shows the cat is doing more work than the firebox. The firebox to cat ratio changes throughout the burn cycle. I've noticed my cat reads way hotter AFTER I turn it down from running on high. I think the lack of combustion air once I turn it down loads up the cat, whereas it was just burning cleanly in the firebox on high previously.

Only two (maybe 3) reasons to adjust thermostat further:
1. Get your fuel burning, and drive the moisture out (usually a higher setting for the first 10-30min)
2. Comfort, this is usually a set and forget setting once your fuel is prepped from reason 1
3. This isn't really a reason if you do 1 and 2 properly, but if you happen to set it too low for reason 2, you might have to boost it to use all your fuel up, or keep the cat active if you have particularly poor wood.

Load size affecting setting: For me I've noticed I run at a much higher setting for a given heat output when burning partial loads. I think it's because I'm trying to get more BTUs/hr out of less surface area and mass. And my draft my be lower so the CFM will likely be lower for a given setting. It's kinda nice burning a partial load on high if you're going for flames though. I do this on weekends when I'm around to feed it every 4-5hrs and people enjoy watching the flames in the stove. Weekdays I load it till I can't fit anymore, and let it burn for the long haul.

 

[kf6hap]

Everybody comes up with a burning technique that provides the desired results. All of my wood is 18" and the box is completely filled each time. After placing a fire starter near the bottom middle of the front of the wood stack (other sides are inaccessible) it is lit and the loading door is left ajar. As the flames start to roar, the door is closed a little. When the flue probe reaches ~200F the door is closed. When the flue probe reaches ~300-350 the bypass is rolled shut and the wall of flames causes the cat to glow red instantly. Minute 8 since lighting. The cat probe might be pointing at the "I' on inactive but I don't look at it as the flue probe tells me when to close the bypass. If the draw is strong enough to suck the wall of flames up into the cat shield the start up is always successful. The flue probe will then shoot up to 500 for the load char. After the char the thermostat is turned down in 2-3 steps. I listen for the throttle plate clack, then crack it open. The thermostat will then slowly throttle the burn rate down thus enabling a second or third turn down as necessary. Doing it this way keeps the air-fuel mixture more reasonable. To avoid flue gook formation the probe is kept above 200. If too much heat is being made (not often) a door to other rooms is opened. Later on in the burn the flue might drop below 200 but by then the load is so charred it is not a problem. This avoids running on the ragged edge with it's attendant problems. These BK stoves can be turned down more than any other stove but nothing is without limits.

 

[oldbluedeer]

Are you only starting on a partial load for some reason? Are you essentially re-starting the start up routine from scratch as the cat reaches 12 by repeating the open bypass, open the door and reload routine? Believe you could save yourself considerable time/effort by starting, or reloading once every time. One round of bypass open. Load and start. Close bypass when correctly indicated on cat gauge. Fully involve the load in the party. Reduce air after your load has gotten to its happy place! Mine gets a full load every time. No more starting a fire on a light kindling load and futzing with it down the road by adding more wood. Guessing most here may agree?

Filling up the stove with wood at the very beginning would indeed simplify the process. However, the process that I described is close to what it says on page 26 of the BK Sirocco owner's manual. Since I am new to all things BK, I did not want to second guess the reasons for the steps as they are listed in the manual. In addition, it warns of possible damage to the stove from burning too long with the bypass open, so I read between the lines and thought that was perhaps the reason for doing the full load after the cat is active. Anyways, I may modify my initial start up process and load all the wood at the beginning, since you suggest that and others here seem to be doing that too. Just didn't want to assume to much as I am getting to understand the stove.

 

[showrguy]

Will a vinegar bath help my ceramic cat ??
Mine is 2 1/2 yrs old and not getting to same temp as last season..
I'm totally fine with that though, I just ordered a new one..

 

[kf6hap]

Load size affecting setting: For me I've noticed I run at a much higher setting for a given heat output when burning partial loads. I think it's because I'm trying to get more BTUs/hr out of less surface area and mass

Thermostat setting compensation is necessary as all proportional systems have error (see#506). The error could be reduced to zilch if " integration" were introduced into the control system. This could be implemented with electromechanical devices as in the HVAC industry. It is a proven technique used for the past 50 years.

 

[oldbluedeer]

I think you're overthinking it... .

You may be right, and it wouldn't be the first time.

However, the only reason I am giving it so much thought is the smoke smell that I am getting in the room. It only happens when I load the stove full or mostly full. And in that case, the smell is bad enough that it causes people to clear their throats and remark about it - not enough to set of the smoke alarm, and not visible at all, but enough to be noticeable. For this reason, I only load the stove about half full, and reload it more often, which kind of defeats the BK promise of extended burn times.

The cat probe might be pointing at the "I' on inactive but I don't look at it as the flue probe tells me when to close the bypass. If the draw is strong enough to suck the wall of flames up into the cat shield the start up is always successful. The flue probe will then shoot up to 500 for the load char.... .

The flue probe sounds useful. After the smoke smell in the room is resolved, I may look into installing one...

--

Anyways, as mentioned I am awaiting a 2' piece of chimney pipe, which when installed will provide 17.5' of chimney (with two offset 45 bends in the double wall pipe below the ceiling). And also the Amerivent adapter to replace the bad fitting Duravent stove top adapter. Deliveries are slow as we get toward Christmas, so I am still awaiting these two items. The door is fairly tight, and the gasket looks to be well centered and in excellent condition (no sign of leakage).

If the above two steps do not resolve the issue, and I am hopeful that they will, then I will start clanging the bell and registering more noticeable complaints! Also, the fact that adding 45 degree bends into the system requires additional chimney height, and might contribute to smoke smell in the room - this should be mentioned clearly in the BK manual. If I had known this, I may have installed the stove in a different place...

I do appreciate this group...

 

[black smoke signals]

Why is it no one talks about how WIND changes the dynamics of a blaze king? When my stove t-stat is near the closed position I can hear the flap bouncing off the seat of the t-stat at 40-60 mph winds. Out of control fire on first light is a hair razor till I build firebox temp up then I can adjust flames down. Are all bk stoves t-stat this way?

 

[lsucet]

Why is it no one talks about how WIND changes the dynamics of a blaze king? When my stove t-stat is near the closed position I can hear the flap bouncing off the seat of the t-stat at 40-60 mph winds. Out of control fire on first light is a hair razor till I build firebox temp up then I can adjust flames down. Are all bk stoves t-stat this way?

Are you using an OAK?

 

[black smoke signals]

I crack a window near the stove

 

[lsucet]

I crack a window near the stove

Then, the wind is coming down the chimney causing that effect?

 

[black smoke signals]

I have a vacu-stack for a wind cap https://www.amazon.com/dp/B009KUTR5K/?tag=hearthamazon-20

 

[MissMac]

adjusted the tension on the bypass door a bit to tighten er up - still feel like i'm getting too much smoke after i turn down the t-stat. wood was good and charred. can you tell by these kinda crappy pics if that's too much coming out of the chimney?