2020 and retailers

[mar13]

So the HPBA thread jumped off track, but I thought I had to pipe in to say what I've heard from a local retailer.

Early this winter, a local retailer was moaning about their many dollars of non2020 compliant inventory. So nothing new is being put on the floor and only paid orders of non2020 stoves are being taken. That said, I'm in the process of getting a T5 Alderlea without ever having seen one in person.

 

[spudman99]

I was wondering how the retailers are gonna handle sales this spring. Since I am in the market for a unit in the next 3 months, will I be sold current inventory, or should I order a 2020 unit yet to be manufactured but compliant?

 

[Ludlow]

Were me I would buy a non-compliant that is in inventory. Your last chance to get a stove that might actually work. If I was a retailer I would be cleaning house by educating the consumer.

 

[webby3650]

It’s not fair to assume these new stoves will be junk. That’s not going to be the case, but there will likely be some glitches along the way that will need addressed. Usability may suffer, we will see.
I would purchase an in stock stove at a discounted price. We currently are selling them off at 20% off.

 

[Ludlow]

In many cases being fair means sacrificing your own interests. Would you want a stove that has been on the market for a few years and is a working design or do you want to spend your hard earned money on being a guinea pig for the environmentalist agenda?

Feel free to use that.

 

[Sawset]

Were me I would buy a non-compliant that is in inventory. Your last chance to get a stove that might actually work. If I was a retailer I would be cleaning house by educating the consumer.

Isn't that what sales is though - shuck and jive whatever is on the lot at the moment. Next year the "education" will again be in line with current inventory. No-one likes disruption, and I'm glad I have what I have. But in a few years, no-one will know any different.

 

[Ludlow]

In a few years it wont be whether your wood is dry enough. It will be whether you are burning bio bricks or a rogue trying to burn cordwood.

 

[Mech e]

Just purchased a 2020 compliant stove to replace my 1988 wood burner. No mods to the existing chimney and the stove works great. Very happy with the unit.

 

[Ludlow]

2020 isnt the end of it though. Where do they draw the line?

 

[XmasTreefarmer]

I've never really paid much attention to buying something brand new ... I do now. Many years ago I purchased a new Kawasaki motorcycle the first year it was made. It was actually "just" an upgrade from a previous model that had a 1500cc engine to one with a 1600cc engine ... well it wasn't horrible, but it wasn't the best either.

There were 4 or 5 recalls in the first few years - the first one was just a different fuse - 10A to 15 A. Mailed to me and easy to change. But after that they all required a visit to the dealer. All at no charge, but still an inconvenience.

With a wood stove, there are soooooo many variables with the fuel, the draft, and how you burn it ... that I'd wait and see before I would buy that first year.

Interestingly, I sort of lived that situation in that I bought my Oslo new in Spring, 2018 and hesitated just a bit knowing that things were going to change in 2020. After more thought, I felt my best move was to go with the proven technology rather than trying to wait for the "next new thing".

Just one man's opinion. When I find out that the 2020 Oslo uses 1/2 the wood and is twice as easy to operate ... well I guess I could swap mine out, but I just don't see that happening!

 

[Highbeam]

I've never really paid much attention to buying something brand new ... I do now. Many years ago I purchased a new Kawasaki motorcycle the first year it was made. It was actually "just" an upgrade from a previous model that had a 1500cc engine to one with a 1600cc engine ... well it wasn't horrible, but it wasn't the best either.

There were 4 or 5 recalls in the first few years - the first one was just a different fuse - 10A to 15 A. Mailed to me and easy to change. But after that they all required a visit to the dealer. All at no charge, but still an inconvenience.

With a wood stove, there are soooooo many variables with the fuel, the draft, and how you burn it ... that I'd wait and see before I would buy that first year.

Interestingly, I sort of lived that situation in that I bought my Oslo new in Spring, 2018 and hesitated just a bit knowing that things were going to change in 2020. After more thought, I felt my best move was to go with the proven technology rather than trying to wait for the "next new thing".

Just one man's opinion. When I find out that the 2020 Oslo uses 1/2 the wood and is twice as easy to operate ... well I guess I could swap mine out, but I just don't see that happening!

Your last paragraph is important. You could always upgrade to a post 2020 stove but this is your last chance to get a pre2020.

 

[Mech e]

In the People's of Republik of Kalifornia things can be challenging. In my county, you cannot sell your home with a non-compliant (to current EPA standards) stove installed. It must be removed and destroyed. I decided to replace my old burner now so at least I could enjoy it a bit instead of waiting until we sell the house at some future date. Anticipating what the local regime will do when the 2020 stoves are mainstream, I decided to get a stove that meets the new standard.

 

[XmasTreefarmer]

Your last paragraph is important. You could always upgrade to a post 2020 stove but this is your last chance to get a pre2020.

Highbeam - Yes, that was key to my decision. Some things I would rather not buy used - a wood stove happens to be one of them. I am a "buy new" and keep it forever sort of guy with many things. Have kept many of my cars for 15 or 20 years and I had my old VC Defiant since 1979! Yikes! By getting the Oslo last year I made a huge upgrade from the Defiant - so much more efficient, fire view (without opening the doors!), etc. That upgrade should hold me another 30 or 40 years! LOL!

 

[bholler]

In many cases being fair means sacrificing your own interests. Would you want a stove that has been on the market for a few years and is a working design or do you want to spend your hard earned money on being a guinea pig for the environmentalist agenda?

Feel free to use that.

There are some that have been on the market for years already that are compliant. I agree there will be some glitches and I wouldn't buy a brand new design my self either. But to be clear that "environmentalist agenda" has already greatly improved the stoves we have available to us and it will continue to do so.

 

[begreen]

Were me I would buy a non-compliant that is in inventory. Your last chance to get a stove that might actually work. If I was a retailer I would be cleaning house by educating the consumer.

There is no evidence that the nex-gen stoves won't work well. I am sure that many will be fine. That said, it's a good idea to wait a season before buying the latest model of stove, car, etc. just to see how it works in the real world. This has been true with the current generation of stoves and will be true with the next.

 

[bholler]

In a few years it wont be whether your wood is dry enough. It will be whether you are burning bio bricks or a rogue trying to burn cordwood.

Do you have any actual info to back up that paranoia?

 

[begreen]

Heaven forbid that some of the next-gen stoves are actually better! Recent tests have shown some are cleaner burning than cats and even pellet stoves!

 

[XmasTreefarmer]

Heaven forbid that some of the next-gen stoves are actually better! Recent tests have shown some are cleaner burning than cats and even pellet stoves!

Yes, this could be really exciting

 

[Newburnerwisconsin]

Heaven forbid that some of the next-gen stoves are actually better! Recent tests have shown some are cleaner burning than cats and even pellet stoves!

That is really interesting. According to the Pacific Energy website, they have a entire line of 2020 compliant models. I don't care about emissions, but I would be curious about wood consumption with a non-cat model. I like my current model, but it does burn a lot of wood.

 

[armanidog]

From the EPA:
"On November 21, 2018, EPA proposed amendments to the New Source Performance Standards (NSPS) for Residential Wood Heaters issued in 2015. The proposed amendments would allow retailers additional time to sell the existing inventory of hydronic heaters and forced-air furnaces. EPA is also taking comment on a similar sell-through provision for wood stoves and on whether the pellet fuel requirements should be revised."

https://www.epa.gov/residential-woo...source-performance-standards-residential-wood

Basically, the dealers could sell the 2015 compliant stoves until 2022 or until inventory is gone. .

The proposed rule from the Federal Register:
https://www.federalregister.gov/doc...-heaters-new-residential-hydronic-heaters-and

The comments closed in January and the open hearing was in December.

Another proposed amendment was to use cord wood for testing in wood stoves among other changes.

https://www.federalregister.gov/doc...-heaters-new-residential-hydronic-heaters-and

Personally I look forward to more efficient stoves.

 

[webby3650]

Basically, the dealers could sell the 2015 compliant stoves until 2022 or until inventory is gone. .

Well that didn’t happen unfortunately. Almost every stove sitting in showroom floors or warehoused has a tag right on it that says “not to be sold after may 15 2020. I’ve heard of people buying what they thought or was led to believe were 2020 stoves only to fine out they were misled. So pay attention when purchasing if a compliant stove is what you want. If you bought a stove recently and think it approved, look at the tag to verify.

 

[lsucet]

Heaven forbid that some of the next-gen stoves are actually better! Recent tests have shown some are cleaner burning than cats and even pellet stoves!

The cleaner the better but, what about efficiency? I think on efficiency, cats and hybrids are the winners here. Maybe I am wrong. On the consumer side efficiency can be the main factor cause is less hard work or money spent etc. We all benefit from cleaner emissions. Lets see what is the compromise with efficiency.

 

[ColdNorCal]

Just purchased a 2020 compliant stove to replace my 1988 wood burner. No mods to the existing chimney and the stove works great. Very happy with the unit.

So your boring, utilitarian, non-cat, no special wizardy adjusters, SBI Drolet 1800 stove with a very good warranty and has been sold for several years is 2020 compliant. (sarcasm). Good choice (no sarcasm). I looked at the pre 2020 and post 2020 manuals of that stove and it appears the only change are the air tubes. It will be interesting to see how many other stoves SBI can convert to 2020 with minimal changes.

Per my local Kalifornia. It is possible that the buyer take responsibility to remove or update the stove. It will be interesting if its updated to 2020 epa standard.



Section 303 of the Placer County Air Pollution Control District’s (District) Rule 225, Wood Burning Appliances, contains the requirement that no person shall sell or transfer any property (commercial or residential) which contains a free standing non-EPA Phase II Certified wood stove, as of January 1, 2012. All non-certified free standing wood stoves must be rendered inoperable at the point of property sale/transfer.

For more information and a copy of this rule, go to www.placer.ca.gov/apcd. Section 303 does not require a stove to be removed or replaced, only rendered inoperable. This condition also does not apply to open hearth masonry or zero-clearance fireplaces, inserts, pellet stoves, or dedicated wood burning cook stoves with ovens. An EPA Phase II Certified wood stove should have a permanent label attached to it which indicates that the stove meets the EPA’s July 1, 1990, emission standards. A list of certified wood burning stoves can be found on the District’s website.

If the Seller is unable or unwilling to perform any of the above actions due to; the selling of bank owned property, auction, foreclosure, short sale, or for any other reason, the Buyer will take full responsibility for compliance with Section 303 of the Rule and for submitting this form to the District no later than 30 days after the close of escrow.

 

[bholler]

The cleaner the better but, what about efficiency? I think on efficiency, cats and hybrids are the winners here. Maybe I am wrong. On the consumer side efficiency can be the main factor cause is less hard work or money spent etc. We all benefit from cleaner emissions. Lets see what is the compromise with efficiency.

That depends upon your but needs. If you are burung low most of the times then yes absolutly vats are more efficient. But i have seen no gain in efficency over the noncat.

 

[bholler]

Well that didn’t happen unfortunately. Almost every stove sitting in showroom floors or warehoused has a tag right on it that says “not to be sold after may 15 2020. I’ve heard of people buying what they thought or was led to believe were 2020 stoves only to fine out they were misled. So pay attention when purchasing if a compliant stove is what you want. If you bought a stove recently and think it approved, look at the tag to verify.

So you have to sell 50 stoves in 14 months and that is a problem? You have 6 months from the start of 2020 to sell off your old stock it dienst sound unreasonable at all