6 month old VC Defiant disappointment

[wolfize69]

The ashpan handle wouldn't turn and was very difficult to open and it bent out of shape to the point of breaking. The wooden knob fell off. The heat from the stove has already warped the pan so bad it doesn't want to open or close. The damper seems like it is going to break at any moment. We have spent hundreds of hours attempting to get more than 8 hours burn on this crappy stove and there is NO way. We bought it because the guy gave us (unfortunately) a verbal guarantee that it was a 14 hour stove but would be more like 12. I would be elated if we could even get 8 hours regularly! This was installed October 5th, 2022.

 

[begreen]

Is this the original Defiant? If not, which model?

 

[peakbagger]

No ash pan or wooden knobs on the original Defiant.

 

[GrumpyDad]

Ash pan or the drawer itself. Ash pan shouldn't be warped. Never leave that open even during a cold start. People recommending that should stop immediately. If not left open then you have a serious leak and need to call for warranty service.
This is also likely why you aren't getting an eight hour burn.
I have a little dauntless and six hour burns are easy while also producing some nice heat. Eight hours with a little oak mixed in and the stove on medium low.
Twelve hours if all oak as long as I don't mind the last couple of hours having it run at 350 to 400.
Usually clean glass unless I turn it down too far and let it go or a load doesn't catch well enough and turn it down and don't watch it for many hours.
You need to search up the dollar bill test and do that. Take the ash pan out while doing this. EDIT: Test while the stove is cold please.

 

[begreen]

No ash pan or wooden knobs on the original Defiant.

Warping of the ashpan is most uncommon. This may be the first time someone has posted the concern.

Did the title change or did I just miss this? Now says 6-month-old Defiant. Maybe I missed that.

 

[arnermd]

Be grateful . Our stove is 5 months old. We paid $9g and 3 things have broken on it so far. This Defiant has been a huge disappointment and i am embarassed i bought it. We bought it for the 14 hour burn aspect, we got almost 8 hours one day. We have spent hundreds of hours perfecting and honing our burning skills too. I would never buy this crap in the future.

What model are you running? Add it to your tagline so we know.

Some have said these already.....

• 3-4 hour burns are too short, something is not right.
• Crumbled cat is a sign of overheating. How many cord have you put through it?
• MC can make a difference but if you have high MC you would get long colder burns..... does not seem like you are seeing that.
  • Maybe you have low MC wood? Pretty uncommon problem, unless you have a kiln like woodsplitter
• My first thought is you have an air leak.
• I assume you are running full loads?
• Dare I ask.... Are you closing the bypass? Silly question I know.....
• Need temps to really diagnose, do you have griddle, flue, cat temps?
• Have you heard a sucking sound coming from the lower back of the stove? That's indicative of a cat overfire. On my stove when I hear that I close down air or draft damper right away till it burns out.

 

[begreen]

Asking that this thread be used so that important information is not repeated and lost.

So far we know that

1. the stove is new. Is this a model 1975?
2. the stove has a replacement catalyst, the first was found crumbled and broken.
3. there have been several chimney fires this season.
4. the ash pan has warped badly and the ash pan door hard to close/open
5. anything else

It would be helpful to know:

• Have some of the wood pieces been tested after being resplit for internal moisture content?
• If yes, what are the readings? If not, when was the wood split and stacked? What species of firewood?
• How tall is the flue system on the stove? Describe it in detail for sizing and height.
• What has been the normal procedure for running the stove from startup?

 

[GrumpyDad]

What model are you running? Add it to your tagline so we know.

Some have said these already.....

• 3-4 hour burns are too short, something is not right.
• Crumbled cat is a sign of overheating. How many cord have you put through it?
• MC can make a difference but if you have high MC you would get long colder burns..... does not seem like you are seeing that.
  • Maybe you have low MC wood? Pretty uncommon problem, unless you have a kiln like woodsplitter
• My first thought is you have an air leak.
• I assume you are running full loads?
• Dare I ask.... Are you closing the bypass? Silly question I know.....
• Need temps to really diagnose, do you have griddle, flue, cat temps?
• Have you heard a sucking sound coming from the lower back of the stove? That's indicative of a cat overfire. On my stove when I hear that I close down air or draft damper right away till it burns out.

Im more concerned about the warped ash pan. I would stop operating the stove until I got to the bottom of that.
The only thing that should be open, would be during a cold start - you can crack the door a little bit. No more than say 15 minutes though.
If one has proper draft, having the door open is more of a rushing the fire start more than it is necessity to get a fire going.
I am a believer of the top down method because it heats the flue for me. I dont have to hold a burning paper towel up the flue anymore

 

[Woodsplitter67]

Five cords is a lot.. I sweep mid season every year just to see how things are going. If your having that much of an issue.. Id check your wood for sure. If your wood is in good shap 20% mc and lower you should be fine.. Open a pice of wood check the MC on the freshly split face with the pinsbehind with the grain and split shoud be room temperature.. DO NOT CHECK ON THE OUTSIDE OR END GRAIN.. this is a false reading.. your checking internal moisture of the split. Also you should be burning with the cat installed.. are you? Kinda sounds like a high MC wood..

 

[Woodsplitter67]

So the crumbled cat and warped ashpan is from you letting the stove get too hot.. Do you have a griddle thermometer did you install the digital cat probe

can you tell us what species of wood your burning

 

[wolfize69]

Is this the original Defiant? If not, which model?

Yes this is original. From Fireside Hearth and Home in St. Cloud, MN. Fresh out of the box and installed by them.

 

[wolfize69]

No ash pan or wooden knobs on the original Defiant.

Oh sorry. I thought you meant did I buy it originally or get it off like marketplace or something. This is a 2022 model. It is a 1975-Cat-C

 

[peakbagger]

Be careful, an original Defiant was installed about 40 years ago and did not have ashpans or wooden handles. VC and their many owners has abused the great reputation of the original models by recycling the names on newer models that have the well earned reputation of being fragile at best. Unless you have long memory my guess is you have one of newer models.

 

[begreen]

Oh sorry. I thought you meant did I buy it originally or get it off like marketplace or something. This is a 2022 model. It is a 1975-Cat-C

Thanks, no problem. Was the ashpan door frequently opened to aid fire starting?

 

[wolfize69]

No ash pan or wooden knobs on the original Defiant.

Oh sorry. I thought you meant did I buy it originally or get it off like marketplace or something. This is a 2022 model. The model number is 1975-CAT-C

 

[wolfize69]

Thanks, no problem. Was the ashpan door frequently opened to aid fire starting?

This thing is only 5 months old. The handle was only used to open it every 2-3 days to clean per the instructions.

 

[begreen]

This thing is only 5 months old. The handle was only used to open it every 2-3 days to clean per the instructions.

OK, so it was not used for starting the stove. Can you detail the operating procedures followed for starting and running the stove. There are good owners of these stoves that may be able to spot an issue. I am heading out of town so I won't be able to follow this except later at night.

Of course, there's also a possibility of a factory defect like a poor or missing gasket that is at the heart of this issue. As I noted earlier, it is very untypical.

 

[wolfize69]

OK, so it was not used for starting the stove. Can you detail the operating procedures followed for starting and running the stove. There are good owners of these stoves that may be able to spot an issue. I am heading out of town so I won't be able to follow this except later at night.

Of course, there's also a possibility of a factory defect like a poor or missing gasket that is at the heart of this issue. As I noted earlier, it is very untypical.

We have had this running 24/7 since late October. We do our best to not let it get cooler than 400 when the damper is closed. The damper gets shut when the griddle reads 450 and higher and the catalyst on the back says it is ready. We regulate the burn to prolong the wood but don't get much more than 4 hours. (We have only used 2% of our propane tank in 5 months so that is cool cuz we cook a lot on our gas stove.)

 

[arnermd]

This thing is only 5 months old. The handle was only used to open it every 2-3 days to clean per the instructions.

Earlier this year I found that the ring on the latch for my glass doors was frozen. The ashpan uses the same style latch so you might check and see if that ring is rotating. I freed it up with a pair of pliers and then disassembled it and polished the shaft OD and the ring ID.
Original Post

I would describe mine as typically "hard to latch" but that's pretty subjective, I have to work at it to get it to close, but it always does and has not broken yet in 10+ years..... You can adjust the clamping force by loosening the set screw and then backing off the nut a bit, try it out and then retighten the set screw. You want the ashpan to be tight, leaking air in there will certainly give you a raging primary burn.

FYI... I have the same stove as you, model 1975, but not the CAT-C version. Not sure what the difference is.....

• I bought mine new in 2012 and burn 4+ cord a year, 24/7.
• 8-10 hour burns are typical, 14+ hours is possible with air closed way down, but I rarely run that way.
• If you look in the 2022/23 VC owners thread you sill find lots of temp plots I posted for my burns. They may be of help to you in diagnosing the problem. Good burn
• Short burn times with a full load has to be either excess primary air (excessive draft or leaks) or you have low BTU wood (light, punky stuff)
• What are typical temps? Stove top, flue, cat? and how/where are you measuring them. Pictures are good....
• My chronic problem has been excessive cat temps, I routinely hit 1600+ cat temps in 80 - 90% of my burns. Still searching for a way to stop it.... I have rebuilt my stove twice with all new refractory and all new gasketing. Problem always remains the same.

 

[GrumpyDad]

Earlier this year I found that the ring on the latch for my glass doors was frozen. The ashpan uses the same style latch so you might check and see if that ring is rotating. I freed it up with a pair of pliers and then disassembled it and polished the shaft OD and the ring ID.
Original Post

I would describe mine as typically "hard to latch" but that's pretty subjective, I have to work at it to get it to close, but it always does and has not broken yet in 10+ years..... You can adjust the clamping force by loosening the set screw and then backing off the nut a bit, try it out and then retighten the set screw. You want the ashpan to be tight, leaking air in there will certainly give you a raging primary burn.

FYI... I have the same stove as you, model 1975, but not the CAT-C version. Not sure what the difference is.....

• I bought mine new in 2012 and burn 4+ cord a year, 24/7.
• 8-10 hour burns are typical, 14+ hours is possible with air closed way down, but I rarely run that way.
• If you look in the 2022/23 VC owners thread you sill find lots of temp plots I posted for my burns. They may be of help to you in diagnosing the problem. Good burn
• Short burn times with a full load has to be either excess primary air (excessive draft or leaks) or you have low BTU wood (light, punky stuff)
• What are typical temps? Stove top, flue, cat? and how/where are you measuring them. Pictures are good....
• My chronic problem has been excessive cat temps, I routinely hit 1600+ cat temps in 80 - 90% of my burns. Still searching for a way to stop it.... I have rebuilt my stove twice with all new refractory and all new gasketing. Problem always remains the same.

I can't believe after all your hard work that you can't keep the cat within range. I know it's a common issue but I always thought it would be related to excessive draft, but then you would know you have that with low burn times and heat output that is higher than you'd like with the stove turned all the way down. If I turn my stove all the way down, that's the off button. The coals will remain to slowly exhaust their potential but will never get warm enough to heat the wood above aside from extracting all of the moisture out (creosote). If I turn the stove all the way up I can get the stove to the 'too hot' range rather easily. So based on that Im assuming I have a good level of control with my air control and am wondering if you do as well. Looking at your graphs though I see you burning with 0-10% air for periods of time. Yet the cat is still overheating. That suggests too much draft, wood too dry etc. But you've done all that work, so your issue is a real head scratcher to me. I hope you figure it out, because it sucks to see someone work so hard toward something and not have the intended results.

 

[kborndale]

The wood is not too dry, especially in Connecticut.

 

[Eman85]

I've read your posts on a few different threads and you have something seriously wrong. You say the stove was new 6 mos ago and professionally installed, what is the chimney constructed of? Did they give you any answers when you asked them? Did you inspect the chimney after the fires?
The warped ash pan might just be the rack the pan sits in being a little bent, mine has done that. The handle breaking is odd as mine is old and never had any problems like that and that handle doesn't get very hot. The mechanism that latches the door might need a little adjustment.
I don't see how you have such short burn times unless you're running it wide open all of the time. With my cat engaged I have to cut the air way back to control cat temps and without the cat engaged I have to cut it back to control flue temps.

 

[wolfize69]

Earlier this year I found that the ring on the latch for my glass doors was frozen. The ashpan uses the same style latch so you might check and see if that ring is rotating. I freed it up with a pair of pliers and then disassembled it and polished the shaft OD and the ring ID.
Original Post

I would describe mine as typically "hard to latch" but that's pretty subjective, I have to work at it to get it to close, but it always does and has not broken yet in 10+ years..... You can adjust the clamping force by loosening the set screw and then backing off the nut a bit, try it out and then retighten the set screw. You want the ashpan to be tight, leaking air in there will certainly give you a raging primary burn.

FYI... I have the same stove as you, model 1975, but not the CAT-C version. Not sure what the difference is.....

• I bought mine new in 2012 and burn 4+ cord a year, 24/7.
• 8-10 hour burns are typical, 14+ hours is possible with air closed way down, but I rarely run that way.
• If you look in the 2022/23 VC owners thread you sill find lots of temp plots I posted for my burns. They may be of help to you in diagnosing the problem. Good burn
• Short burn times with a full load has to be either excess primary air (excessive draft or leaks) or you have low BTU wood (light, punky stuff)
• What are typical temps? Stove top, flue, cat? and how/where are you measuring them. Pictures are good....
• My chronic problem has been excessive cat temps, I routinely hit 1600+ cat temps in 80 - 90% of my burns. Still searching for a way to stop it.... I have rebuilt my stove twice with all new refractory and all new gasketing. Problem always remains the same.

As you can see, VC went generic with their materials. My Cat probe only indicates when it is ready to be activated so you can shut the damper.

 

[Woodsplitter67]

I've read your posts on a few different threads and you have something seriously wrong. You say the stove was new 6 mos ago and professionally installed, what is the chimney constructed of? Did they give you any answers when you asked them? Did you inspect the chimney after the fires?
The warped ash pan might just be the rack the pan sits in being a little bent, mine has done that. The handle breaking is odd as mine is old and never had any problems like that and that handle doesn't get very hot. The mechanism that latches the door might need a little adjustment.
I don't see how you have such short burn times unless you're running it wide open all of the time. With my cat engaged I have to cut the air way back to control cat temps and without the cat engaged I have to cut it back to control flue temps.

there are 2 things here.. the warped ash pan and the destroyed cat.. living in Minnesota with extremely cold winters, he may have inadvertently have gotten the stove too hot a few times. The suggestion of being parts of the stove going bad along with super short burn times posted. Im thinking this way. As for the super bad creosote issue.. most likely poor wood as it doesn't sound like the airs being cut back a ton

 

[Woodsplitter67]

As you can see, VC went generic with their materials. My Cat probe only indicates when it is ready to be activated so you can shut the damper.

View attachment 310833

This is normal other stoves use bimetal thermometers like this.. I walked by a hearthstone today at the stove shop and they use the same thing.. You probably should upgrade to digital.. you catalyst will operate better and longer.