867-5309 . . . Talking about (G)Jenny

[firefighterjake]

So it's Day 4 of using a generator and I'm optimistic that we'll have power sometime tonight . . . I hope.

I count myself as fortunate since we have our woodstove and a small 3,000 watt Coleman Powermate generator bought back in the Ice Storm of 1998 which we've been using to keep the freezer and refrigerator going . . . and my wife has got a spare extension cord running to the TV.

The other day she said something along the lines of "You know if you're going to insist that we live in the sticks, which I figure is the case since you have shown no interest in going anywhere else for the past 21 years, I think maybe we should look at getting a generator that will run most of the house and be easier for me to set up."

Now I should mention she actually lugged the Powermate generator off the back porch, down the small flight of stairs, gassed it up and had it running with extension cords powering the various appliances by the time I got home . . . although she did confess that it was quite heavy and she dropped it on her foot.

Me, being me . . . and like most guys . . . I immediately was drawn to the Honda EU7000Is which offers the more stable power, is quieter and sips the fuel as it is an inverter. I figure I don't necessarily need a whole house generator like the large ones fixed and in place, but I plan to get something that we can easily roll out, hook up a cord, flip a switch and start the generator (bearing in mind that in 1998 my poor wife ended up breaking her arm and I left for a class down in Emmitsburgh, Maryland at the Firefighter Academy so she had to fuel, start and man-handle this all by herself . . . and sadly we're both not getting any younger.

I'm thinking gasoline . . . mainly because of the cost in my neck of the woods.

I'm also thinking something 6,000 watts or more should suffice for what we want -- keeping the freezer and refrigerator going, powering the well pump, TV, internet/wifi and a couple of lights.

As mentioned I was drawn to either the Honda EU7000IS or Yamaha EF6300ISDE . . . the specs look good for both (although I would love to hear pros and cons of these two units) . . . but then I started to wonder . . .

Do I really need an inverter? I mean if this Powermate Big Box store generator has been running well enough and powering my TV and appliances for all of these years (we end up using it maybe once a year or once every other year for a few hours to a day or two) do I really need the more expensive inverter?\\

I mean sure the reduced noise would be nice, but I live in the country so it's not a necessity.

The improved fuel economy is also nice . . . but a conventional generator just a bit smaller (Honda EM6500S) offers a similar run time albeit with a slightly larger tank. I can live with this since right now I am fueling up the Powermate every 1 1/2-2 hours.

My real question is on the quality of the power . . . is the more stable power for electronics all that necessary? I mean to say, I've been using the Powermate now for nearly two decades without any problems with appliances/electronics so I was wondering if an inverter is totally necessary or if a plain Jane generator such as the Honda EM6500S or Yamaha EM7200DE would meet my wants/needs?

 

[Montanalocal]

I have had a generator most all of my life (I am in my 70's and have always lived in the country). When I have taught some of my classes on being self-sufficient, I emphasize the big 3 as far as electrical self sufficiency. 1. Food preservation, refrigerators and freezers. 2. Heat. Wood burning for us usually covers this, but if you have propane or gas, you need to factor in fans and thermostats. 3. Water. You mentioned your well pump.

Once you add up all the wattage of everything you want to run, there are two things I would not be without.

1. Battery starting. When you need it, it will be very cold and have not been running for some time. Spend a little money and get a battery start model. None of us are getting any younger. Get a battery tender and leave it hooked up.

2. Whole house hookup. It does cost money. If you plan on living in your house for a long time going forward, it will be a very good investment. You can run anything in your house if you get a good quality double-pole double-throw switch and run your generator through your main electric panel.

As far as quality of electricity, I have had a 9000 watt old regular generator for may years, and have had no problems with computers and such.

 

[vinny11950]

Not sure on the answer, Jake, but I am curious what the more knowledgeable members will say. So sign me up to this thread.

 

[fbelec]

touching the subject of lighting the whole panel up it is inexpensive to do so. at worst if your panel is not to old all you are going to need is a generator interlock. if the company that makes your panel doesn't make a interlock kit for it go for a company called generator interlock. they are the most expensive kit out and they take the responsibility if something happens. these kits are ok to satisfy electric code. if you can use a drill with a 1/8 inch bit which the kit comes with then you can install one of these. they are 2 to 3 times the cost of the company that makes your panel. and in mass the generator interlock brand sells for $150.00 murray siemans about $65.00 then you'll need a 2 pole 30 breaker for your panel and a piece of 10/3 romex that goes between the breaker and the generator power inlet mounted to the outside of your house. and i recommend paying the extra $10.00 for the ge power inlet box. way better design to keep everything dry while in use. you can get them anywhere you can buy ge products or the home depot.

the generator interlock make it so that you can have the main utility breaker on and generator breaker off or the generator breaker on and the utility main off. the can't be on at the same time. that's what makes it safe for the lineman and code compliant.

frank

 

[peakbagger]

The inverter generators do really sip fuel and they also tend to be quieter. The government quietly put in power quality standards over th last 20 years that force legit manufacturers to accepts much wider swings in power quality. Switching power supplies like those used in computers can take real crappy power.

The biggest thing with a generator is how easy it is to drain the fuel entirely out of the unit. If the unit sits for years between uses if you leave gas in it, its probably going to deteriorate and cause issues at some point.

 

[moey]

Let it warm up and dont let it run out of gas. Those are the two keys in my opinion to not causing any damage to appliances. Those problems exist for any generator you buy. I have a inverter and a large cheap champion noisy generator to run my well pump. Ive never had an appliance with a motor sound different on either generator. In my opinion people make way to big of deal on power quality. But you do want something that is reliable.

 

[Ashful]

On the power quality, with respect to modern electronics, it’s not much of an issue. Most modern electronics use power supplies with wide-ranging inputs, most typically 90 - 265 VAC, 50 - 60 Hz. It’s more things like refrigerator compressors and well pumps, which may respond unfavorably to poorly-regulated voltage.

 

[Highbeam]

There are inverter gensets and then there are non-inverter gensets. The non-inverter gensets are available in a wide range of quality. Really, your utility power is not generated with an inverter but a high quality generator. My champion brand inverter genset makes better quality power than the utility does. All to say, don't be afraid of a well made non-inverter genset. Well made means it will be expensive.

Here's a problem that hasn't been mentioned yet. When you backfeed your panel through an interlock you are required to use a 240 volt genset. Okay fine, that knocks out lots of inverter gensets. By design, the breakers in your panel will unevenly load the two legs of the incoming 240 volt power BUT the standard 240 volt genset only regulates the sum of the two sides to be 240 volts. Meaning one side can be at 90 while the other leg is at 150! Not cool! Other 240 gensets only regulate one leg to 120 and assume that you are evenly loading each leg. Also not cool and can result in 90 volts to the refrigerator which is no good.

When looking at 240 volt gensets to be used to backfeed your entire panel be sure to ask how the voltage is regulated. The fancy Hondas might just be smart enough to regulate two independent 120 volt legs. That would be awesome. I think they're fuel injected too! Note also that a 6000 watt 240 volt genset can only provide 3000 watts to all of the 120 volt breakers on each leg. The only way to power a single load above 3000 would be if it was a 240 volt breaker. You start looking at your breaker locations a little differently when you are thinking about spreading the load evenly across both legs.

I have an interlocked siemens panel and I love it but I decided to not use any 240 volt circuits and instead wire an adapter to feed my whole panel with 120 volt power from the inverter. It works great but it only works because of my 10 gauge generator ciruit and 3000 watt genset. See, the neutral takes double the anticipated current in this setup.

Lots to think about.

Oh, with an interlock you need to flip off breakers for automatic huge loads like electric water heaters, water heaters, hot tubs, or anything else that you don't want coming on and knocking out the genset. It's not quite as simple as flipping a switch.

 

[Ashful]

Interesting hypotheses, Highbeam. My genny has a four-wire hook up, with neutral and ground, and is voltage regulated. I’ll have to see how uneven loading affects the individual leg to neutral voltages, next time I have to backfeed.

 

[firefighterjake]

Thanks folks ... as always the depth of knowledge here is fantastic. Based on the comments here I suspect I'll go with a generator ... now I need to find a good make and model.

While overall wattage will be important, reliability and "cleaner/more equal" power are also high on my want lists. The noise isn't as important since I am in the country and in a power outage I suspect a fair number of my neighbors will also be using a generator. I like the idea of having electric start with pull start as a back up. Being portable with wheels will be a must, but I suspect the larger generators will come with this feature.

Any thing else I should be considering?

Any personal recommendations?

 

[velvetfoot]

This thing is handy to let you know when utility power is back:
(broken link removed)

 

[Highbeam]

Interesting hypotheses, Highbeam. My genny has a four-wire hook up, with neutral and ground, and is voltage regulated. I’ll have to see how uneven loading affects the individual leg to neutral voltages, next time I have to backfeed.

I'm sure all generators are "voltage regulated" and we don't really want to talk about the ground and neutral and what a floating neutral means! The first time I noticed the lame voltage regulation methods of 240 volt gensets is when I was backfeeding my house and the refrigerator was just barely turning on and made very little noise. I stuck my kill-a-watt meter in a plug on the same circuit and found less than 100 volts but the genset was purring along just fine. I then found another outlet on a different circuit at 140. Light bulb moment. Just to be sure, I replaced the AVR in the generator head and adjusted the pot to provide 120 volts and it worked great until I unevenly loaded the legs again.

Inverter gensets are awesomely boring at making perfect power but you don't see many running 240 volts.

To the OP. My non-inverter genset ran everything just fine when not in the unevenly loaded situation. Big screen TVs, computers, lights, all without flicker or humming. My ceiling fan runs on low all winter and that bugger hummed more than ever when on genset power. With the inverter genset, no hum at all.

 

[mustash29]

I had this place built in '96 when I was 26 but only ever dealt with short term outages due to drunks taking out a pole, etc.

Bought a Briggs "Storm Responder" 5500 / 8250 surge when a storm was approaching in '11 but we never needed to use it.

It was still in the unopened box a year later in '12 when Irene hit. We were out for 5 days. I back fed the whole house with 240 V via the dryer outlet + had 250' of romex running over to the neighbors. We had all essentials - oil furnace (internal hot water coil), well pump, fridge, waterbed heater, lights, hair dryer, leaf blower, etc + the neighbors fridge & freezer. We blew through 17 gal in 5 days. We cooked on the grill & Coleman propane camp stove.

After Irene, I drained the fuel, ran her dry, changed the oil, put a few drops of oil in the plug hole, covered it with the box it came in as a dust cover and parked it in the rec room / mud room where the wood stove lives.

I eventually picked up a slightly used Coleman 1500 / 1800 portable tailgate model.

5 years later we get this nasty quick wind & rain storm. We had 3.5" of rain last week and got 4.5" of rain overnight with peak wind gusts of about 67 mph at the coast. I'm about 15 miles inland. Lost power about 10 pm Sunday evening. Came home from work Mon AM after 13 hr nightshifts due to fall outages on the boilers at work for the last 3 weeks. Grumpy & tired, I fired up the little Coleman to run the fridge & freezer.

Just before dark the little guy was retired and I woke the big guy from his long nap. Filled the fuel tank, opened the main breaker, plugged in my back-feed cord and was ready to rock. Just for sh!ts & giggles I wanted to see if the lady of the house could get it running. Engine switch on, full choke and it coughed and started 1/2 way through the first pull.

We got the grid back Wed evening.

I never worry about the PC or fancy TV because anytime we lose power the cable & internet are down anyway so all we need is the essentials - cold drinks, hot food, showers & lights.

Time for another fuel drain, run dry, oil change and put back to bed until needed again.

 

[peakbagger]

I bought a generator a couple of months after the year 2000. I live in a rural area but its a newer neighborhood that was logged before the development went in thus the trees mostly are at or below the powerlines. Almost all the houses in the development voluntarily put in underground feeds to their homes, this cuts way down on issues as frequently trees on house services can damage the main line. I have never needed the generator for a power outage. I have run it twice since I bought it. I just make sure its drained, run it out of gas and put it away. I do have cheater cord that plugs into the 220 VAC twist lock outlet which I would use to tie into a sub panel in my detached garage. It will start my well pump. Its 6000 Watt Generac.

A few days prior to the most recent storm the utility started aggressively cleaning the right of way in my development (it was planned), 8 feet from the centerline of the wire. They just started the project back again on Monday. Where we have the problems in the area are summer folks who dont want the woods around their lines cleared. They arent around typically when the bad weather comes in but raise heck when the clearing contractor comes by. I wish the utility would just put break away connections on their service leads so their decisions would not impact the locals who live year round.

 

[maple1]

My first preference would be easy on fuel. Keeping a gennie in fuel during an extended outage is something that a lot of people don't think all the way through - they don't look past big wattage. The easier the better. That = inverter for me.

The whole hog approach would be a big whole house self starter and self switcher, tied to an LP tank or NG source. But if you don't already have LP or NG that kind of puts the jimmies to that approach. Second to that would be similar, but the gennie would be a diesel, hooked to a fuel oil tank, if there is already fuel oil on site.

I don't have LP, NG, or fuel oil - so that leaves me with a sensibly sized inverter and a couple jugs of gas.

I guess the moral of all that is - that I would start deciding based on an assessment of currently on-site fuel sources. Then the next most easiest to keep supplied in an extended outage, if what is on-site is lacking. Big wattage is down the list for me - I don't need to use the electric dryer or range or electric water heater or electric boiler in an outage.

 

[peakbagger]

For most folks its the well pump that sets the size of the generator. There is the option with many deep wells with external capacitor boxes to convert them to variable speed constant pressure which eliminates the startup current surge. With that out of the way the generator can be much smaller but realistically the price of the pump conversion will handily pay for the bigger inverter generator. The variable speed pump option does make sense for off grid folks who somehow live perpetually without the grid (but usually have a generator or two anyhow to equalize the batteries and cover extended periods of no sun or wind). They normally use a different type of pump called a positive displacement pump and and a storage tank. Its far more efficient but the up front cost is steep. Of course the pump with no electrical requirements is one of these https://www.bisonpumps.com/ which can usually be fit in the same casing as the electric pump.

The trade off with a variable speed conversion is when the drive fails is not cheap to fix compared to a $25 pressure switch.

The bummer is that in Northern New England where the OP lives, oil heat is quite popular and most folks have at least a 275 gallon tank partially full of oil. It burns quite well in a diesel generator. Unfortunately small diesel generators are not user friendly and quite loud. Definitely not an option in a neighborhood unless you really dont like the neighbors and dont need to sleep.

 

[Highbeam]

Even with a gas sipping inverter genny, I shut down overnight. The cooled refrigeration can easily cruise until morning without harming food and a running genset ticks off the neighbors while attracting the attention of thieves overnight.

If you have a wellpump that demands double or more of your regular needs then consider the two generator approach. One big, cheap, gas hog, hoss of a generator for occasional high demands and a smaller, quieter, more efficient genset for long runs.

The big hoss can cover if the little one fails.

Nothing wrong with gasoline. Preserve it and use it in the lawnmower over the summer. It won't go bad in a year. People really get hung up on this whole fresh gas thing. It burns just fine if you keep the stabil in it and use within a year.

 

[firefighterjake]

Sticking with gas for ease of use . . . so far every time I've needed to fire up the old, small generator it's started up fine with at most a short spray of starter fluid.

Gas supply has never been an issue either as every time the nearby gas station (located very close to a sub station) has had power . . . and if push came to shove I suspect I could find a gas station in the city where I work.

To be honest I'm heavily leaning towards the Honda line of generators . . . although I've also been looking at generators like Rigid which are powered by Honda engines.

 

[Dix]

Following thread, also.

Hang on to her Jake, she sounds like a keeper. The wife, not the generator. But keep that, too The generator

 

[greg13]

Multi Quip is a great generator. Don't be afraid to check into buying a good used over sized unit (8-25kw). Many rental houses sell off their units after x# of years regardless of the use they have had and often can be had fairly cheap. Remember that you most likely will not be putting a ton of hours on it, We have a few big units 25 - 70kw with 4-10000 hrs on them that still run like new so the few hundred hours you may put on will be nothing. Also you could look at welder/generator combo units, you never know what you may find cheap.

Greg

 

[Sodbuster]

My buddy just installed a 12K Generac generator powered by NG. It senses when there is a power interruption and fires up 30-45 seconds later. All automatic. He has a little different situation however. They are gone for 3 months of the year (winter) and if the power goes out and we get a lot of rain, his basement will flood without a sump pump running. He also has 4 deep freezes loaded with meat and food, so the loss would be substantial, if he were to lose power. I think his system was around $2500 installed.

 

[fbelec]

2500 wouldn't even buy the gen
installed that would run about 8 to 10 thousand

 

[Sodbuster]

2500 wouldn't even buy the gen
installed that would run about 8 to 10 thousand

LOL, should of explained, buddy's friend, who sells them is a Master Electrician, so he got it at cost. Buddy is and Unlimited Tonnage Journeyman pipe fitter, so no skilled labor was hired, just a few brews afterwards.

 

[Highbeam]

To be honest I'm heavily leaning towards the Honda line of generators . . . although I've also been looking at generators like Rigid which are powered by Honda engines.

There are Honda portable generators and then there are the much cheaper "other brand" portable generators that have engines with a Honda sticker. I would put these two things at opposite ends of the quality spectrum. On the off brand genset the Honda engine you get will be a low end or commercial level off-the-shelf engine that is used for everything from trash pumps to hay elevators. Little or no better than a regular briggs engine. The generator head will be low budget too. Noisy power.

If you would rather not pay for a Honda or yamaha then I believe you would be better off with a Honda/Yamaha clone from champion.

 

[Sodbuster]

I have a Chonda generator marketed under the Champion brand from Costco. Runs my whole house, I just have to cycle larger loads to compensate for when the well motor kicks on.