New Generator for New House

[peakbagger]

To throw in another underlooked option think diesel. I realize nationwide that home heating oil is fairly rare compared to natural gas but it is quite popular in New England. Many folks do not realize that now that HHO has gone low sulfur that its effectively interchangable with diesel fuel. Therefore many folks have 275 gallons tanks of potential generator fuel in the basement. Diesel is the highest BTU content fuel so more power with less fuel. Diesels also tend to have a lot more torque to ride through load changes so they work better with well pumps. These sudden loads are called step loads and lightweight natural gas or propane generators generally have far less torque and do not respond as quickly to step loads. The military buys a lot of diesel generators and they tend to be heavy but very beefy. They are designed to be repaired and run for long hours but rarely are so they end up in the surplus market. The trade off is diesels are usually loud. The military did produce some fairly quiet inverter generators (MPE831A) but they are 120/240 volt 3KW units so may be too small for some folks. For folks who really need a long run backup generator the surplus military generators are the way to go.

Of course many off gridders have the old low speed Lister Diesels. Many are decades old and so overbuilt that they will outlast the owners. The Brits stopped making them yeas ago but the Indians still make clones (listeroids). The EPA stopped allowing them to be imported but there is a firm in Canada that will sell you an air compressor based on the same parts that reportedly can be readilly be converted to diesel engine.

 

[Stelcom66]

When I saw "nationwide that home heating oil is fairly rare..." I was surprised to hear that. As mentioned above it's very popular here in Conn. I recall when my vacant late neighbor's house ran out of heating oil his daughter bought a few gallons of diesel fuel to put in, and fortunately labelled the container accordingly.

Interesting low rpm Lister engine.

I have an oil furnace, it has an oil filter similar to a vehicle engine. I always wondered why I never detected any scent of the diesel fuel I'm
familiar with, as from a truck. When I was on automatic delivery, I could sense I slight odor I recognized as heating oil after a fill up, but it
wasn't at all like a Peterbuilt or Mack driving by. I believe the heating oil is dyed a certain color? Maybe that's the reason for the unique odor.

Now you've got me thinking about a generator with a small diesel engine. My concern with a typical portable generator would be continually needing to make trips to the gas station (assuming they had electricity) to fill containers. May some kind of diverter valve in the tank fuel supply? But - mine is the typical tank in the basement, the generator would be outside a ways above the tank.

 

[peakbagger]

The easiest way is just hook a "t" into the furnace supply line and a valve and a hose to fill fuel can.

 

[Highbeam]

Careful on the small 120/240 generators. If it’s 3000 watts as in the above example then only half, 1500 watts, is available to either side of your panel. That’s just one microwave, then you blow the breaker. There’s a reason that even the smallest generators are 2000 watts.

Diesel generators are rare. They’re heavy, expensive, hard to start in cold, loud, and diesel fuel can get some nasty fungus when stored. The availability of right sized diesel gensets that are quiet enough to be acceptable is nearly zero. There is just no market since the gas generators are so good. There are some rv type gensets that are diesel but loud. There are big utility sized gensets that are diesel and quiet.

I might look into a military generator for the cool factor. I wish they were about twice as powerful to be used for well pumps.

 

[Stelcom66]

The easiest way is just hook a "t" into the furnace supply line and a valve and a hose to fill fuel can.

True. That would save a trip and be convenient, and it's already there and no electricity required to disperse it to a fuel can. I guess I'm thinking about the luxury of actually running a diesel engine/generator directly from the line. Like you said, there's many gallons of available fuel, and during a power outage it's not being used. My neighbor down the street had the advantage of bordering the main state road where there's a propane or some kind gas supply. The had a generator installed that runs off that. Whenever I drive into our street I can see the green pilot light on. Once a week it turns on automatically (as it would during power failure) to do a test.

Even though they're a few houses across and down the street, usually when most of the street has been out they have not been, as their house's electricity is fed from poles on the main state road.

 

[brenndatomu]

My concern with a typical portable generator would be continually needing to make trips to the gas station (assuming they had electricity) to fill containers. May some kind of diverter valve in the tank fuel supply? But - mine is the typical tank in the basement, the generator would be outside a ways above the tank.

These universal low pressure fuel pumps work pretty well as a transfer pump...or even a lift pump if you have a permanently installed diesel genny

https://www.autozone.com/fuel-systems/universal-fuel-pump

 

[Stelcom66]

Trouble is there would be no electricity to run the pump. Discussed this with some friends/family - sounds like a diesel powered generator would be very expensive. If I was off grid it seems like a good way to go.

 

[brenndatomu]

12 volt...battery power

 

[Stelcom66]

Yes saw several fuel pumps on the link were 12v. Another reason why I'd still like to have a small solar setup for things like that, charge phones and other devices and run a 12v fan in the summer. Hard to imagine having no fans this past (hottest on record here) summer during a power outage.

 

[semipro]

As a former mechanic at a motorcycle/ATV/snowmobile/OPE dealership, I can vouch for how much trouble ethanol causes...it sure brought us a lot of work!
Stabilizer, or at least ethanol treatment makes a big difference...but buying e-free is still the best solution, especially for storage.

Also a former large and small engine mechanic - I suspect the water absorbing nature of ethanol is what causes most problems as the water corrodes tank and carb hard components. I think most soft components (gaskets, needle tips, diaphragms, etc. ) are now made to be ethanol resistant.
Either gas is stored in vented containers which allows moisture in or water enters through the gas tank vent on the equipment. The former is bad practice anyway since it allows the lighter gasoline components (of low molecular weight) to evaporate, which can result in hard starting in cold weather. Some can't be convinced that those EPA-complaint cans shouldn't be vented though.
Proper fuel storage as well as additives or ethanol-free gas as already mentioned are the way to go.

 

[firefighterjake]

Always good to lay in a supply of fuel...it has always been one of my main concerns! But I guess could vary a lot depending on what type of outages you expect. (this actually reminds me I need to dump my 10 gallons of stored gas in my truck and go get some fresh fuel for storage!)

For single household or few-block wide power outages, as you say, there are always plenty of gas stations, but in an extended local, regional, or (gulp) national outage, those likely won't be able to pump fuel or tender sales, and the few that can will likely be swamped with customers.

I always thought natural gas would be great...not have to store fuel, relatively 'uninterruptible', no fuel going bad. But I've known of several instances of storms ripping down trees - which had gas lines tangled up in their roots - leading to whole sections of towns having natural gas shut off. Expect this might be similar for earthquake, flood, tornado, hurricane scenarios. Even though 'your' gas lines might not be damaged, you could be out due to being on a branch where some lines are.

Propane is another option, though unless you already have a large tank, or room to get one, it's hard to store a large quantity. The standard 'barbecue' tanks are ~4-5 gallons of gasoline equivalent. So good for a day or so of run time, or possibly several days if you don't need continuous power.

The best solution I could come up with was to gear up for tri-fuel! Hopefully at least one of the three will be available, at least for some period of time!

Hehheh . . . you're a belt AND suspenders sort of guy! You sound a bit like our County EMA Director who is always telling us town directors about how he has one generator that uses gas and another which uses propane . . . he also has stores of food and water and walks the talk when it comes to emergency preparedness.

 

[firefighterjake]

Not sure if it was mentioned or not but the USDA and many safe food experts say you can safely eat food in a fridge without power up to 4 hours . . . longer if one then places ice blocks in the fridge to keep the internal temp below (I think) 40 degrees. Freezers can safely store food 1-2 days depending on how full the freezer is . . .

 

[Fat wood]

If someone has a gasoline powered generator and access to ethanol free fuel, the logical approach is run it on ethanol free. Talk to any small engine mechanic and they will tell you that 90% of their work these days is damage to the fuel systems from ethanol blended gas. If you can not get ethanol free, learn how to drain the tank and the carburetor bowl after every use. That reduces the damage from the ethanol free gas but obviously introduces the need to fuel up the generator prior to starting. The alternative is after a long run just do the last fill with ethanol free so that the ethanol is flushed out. Honda's state they are designed for Ethanol but the large engines usually have tank drain and bowl drain and warning about using fresh fuel and draining when in storage. Alternatively buy a spare carb when you buy the generator and keep it in the shelf for when it will need it. There is no if, if you let it sit with stale ethanol fuel the buildup will start, intially it may jusr run a bit rough and not idle very well but eventually when you need it it will stall when the load changes.

So true, thats all you should use is ethanol free if available. When i fill my can i put a few ounces of sta-bil in it as well. I run it every few weeks to be safe.

 

[velvetfoot]

I like my HF 3000 watt inverter genny. We also have a Honda 2000i, but there was a sale on the HF, and the 1000 more watts makes a difference.

When we first moved into our new house, I was shocked (so to speak) that our 5kw genny wouldn't start the well pump. Wells were a new thing to us. We had to buy a 7500 Generac, and it still bogs down when the well pump starts.

Our approach is: if the outage is not widespread, we'll wait a few hours to see if the power comes back. Maybe light some oil lamps. Next phase is the HF genny for 120 volt loads. If the outage lasts a couple days, we'll break out the Generac, especially if we didn't think about putting water in the tubs. We'll run the Generac for the well pump and any other 240 volt needs, but mostly just the well pump.

If you're going the portable genny route, I think connecting it to the panel with a disconnect switch and an inlet plug is the way to go. It allows you to select any circuit you want to to power.

I will say that a standby generator setup would be nice, though, I imagine, you could still have fuel consumption concerns, even with a big propane tank.

 

[maple1]

I like my HF 3000 watt inverter genny. We also have a Honda 2000i, but there was a sale on the HF, and the 1000 more watts makes a difference.

When we first moved into our new house, I was shocked (so to speak) that our 5kw genny wouldn't start the well pump. Wells were a new thing to us. We had to buy a 7500 Generac, and it still bogs down when the well pump starts.

Our approach is: if the outage is not widespread, we'll wait a few hours to see if the power comes back. Maybe light some oil lamps. Next phase is the HF genny for 120 volt loads. If the outage lasts a couple days, we'll break out the Generac, especially if we didn't think about putting water in the tubs. We'll run the Generac for the well pump and any other 240 volt needs, but mostly just the well pump.

If you're going the portable genny route, I think connecting it to the panel with a disconnect switch and an inlet plug is the way to go. It allows you to select any circuit you want to to power.

I will say that a standby generator setup would be nice, though, I imagine, you could still have fuel consumption concerns, even with a big propane tank.

Exactly our approach as well. Except we don't need the big gennie for our 120v well pump - just need to unplug mostly everything else from our 3000w inverter (freezer & fridge) for long enough to cycle the pump. I would do the 2-gennie setup if we had a bigger well pump - using as little fuel as possible is priority 1 here. Even if it means futzing around with a couple extension cords for a couple of days.

Teddy is now bearing down on us, expected to hit full steam later this afternoon. An eery quiet before the storm at the moment, but expect the gennie will get drug out the next couple of days. I hate hurricanes.