Advice on Correcting Installation (insulated liner)

[Simon Templar]

Hello,

I recently purchased a regency hi400 and had it installed in early December (it was installed by the folks at shop where I bought the stove, and they're certified). My chimney is approximately 30' on the side of the house, and before having the regency installed the fireplace was just open.

I think by default, the installers will use pink insulation at the top of the chimney and at the bottom, but not in between unless they see that the tiles were compromised. Even before they checked I opted to have the liner insulated at a cost of a few hundred dollars (let's just say 300-400). At the time of purchase it was explained to me that the liner would be wrapped in insulation, with a wire mesh of some sort wrapped around the insulation to hold it in place.

The install went well, but I noted that rather than wrapping the liner, they put the pink insulation in the bottom then poured what I'm guessing is a vermiculite-based insulation (thermix or some such), then I guess they put the pink insulation at the top too. Aside from not being what I expected I don't know that I have an opinion.

Now let me just say that I'm not interested in vendor-bashing at all, and I'm not here to complain or vent in any way. I'm ONLY interested in ending up with a good installation that I can forget about for a long time. With that said, after a short period of time I noticed that when I turned the blower fan on in the stove it blew out some of the thermix insulation (looks like kitty litter). it blew it out at a slow but constant pace with maybe a few tablespoons to 1/8th of a cup landing on my floor each day.

I called the vendor and they promptly came out and stuffed more pink insulation up from the bottom. I gave that a week or two but the problem persisted. I called the vendor and they promptly came out and stuffed more pink insulation up from the bottom. I gave that a week or two but the problem persisted. I'd have to check my notes because now I'm second-guessing whether they came to correct the issue just twice or three times before yesterday, but nonetheless, yesterday they laid out two options for me:

(1) they can remove the thermix insulation altogether and clean it up so I won't have the problem anymore
or
(2) they will remove the insulation, remove the liner, and install a pre-insulated oval liner instead

If I opt for #1 they'll refund the money I paid for the insulation while if I opt for #2 they won't charge me for the more expensive liner (or refund anything).

Again, I don't care to complain or vendor-bash, but what's the right thing to do with regards to ending up with a good installation?

I live in southeast PA where it can get pretty chilly at times, for whatever that's worth.

I'll try to upload some photos to give you an idea of the install:

 

[begreen]

Seems like the easiest thing to do at this point is to install a proper damper sealing block-off plate. Stuffing fiberglass up there is not an adequate solution.

 

[webby3650]

That's right. A block off plate is all that's needed to fix the issue.
That being said, I would never pour insulation in on an insert installation. For the reason you mentioned, it's a mess! If there is even a slight gap or hole it will continually fall out. And, to me it's too permanent. If you want to restore the fireplace at some point you've got a big mess on your hands! Wrapping it is so much better.
I assume they weren't able to fit a 6" liner down the flue with the wrap? And that's the reason for the ovalized liner?

 

[bholler]

Honestly it doesnt look like they even cleaned the smoke chamber out before installing the liner. Due to that and other problems i see with their install i would have them pull out everything but the insert and have someone else clean the entire system and properly install an insulated liner. And i agree with webby we almost never use pour in with an insert for this reason

 

[kennyp2339]

Not to sound like a worrier but why would they use pink insulation, regular fiberglass that close to the stove and around the liner is a no no, if im mistaken, the pink insulation is flammable (if its what I'm thinking it can only withstand temps of up to 1,000 deg f, a chimney fire can burn +1500deg f)

 

[bholler]

And, to me it's too perminant.

it really is not that permanent it comes out pretty well with a rotary cleaning

 

[Nick Mystic]

I concur on the block off plate. It would clearly be the least labor intensive option and you would want a block off plate with that outdoor chimney even if you had an insulated oval liner installed. You don't want all your heat escaping up your chimney heating all those cold bricks! Tell them if they will put a block off plate down below and seal it properly you'll let them off on the cheap.

 

[bholler]

I concur on the block off plate. It would clearly be the least labor intensive option and you would want a block off plate with that outdoor chimney even if you had an insulated oval liner installed. You don't want all your heat escaping up your chimney heating all those cold bricks! Tell them if they will put a block off plate down below and seal it properly you'll let them off on the cheap.

If they had cleaned it first i would totally agree after they pull out the fiberglass and re[place it with an appropriate insulation. But the fact that they did not clean it first is a big problem.

 

[jb6l6gc]

Not to sound like a worrier but why would they use pink insulation, regular fiberglass that close to the stove and around the liner is a no no, if im mistaken, the pink insulation is flammable (if its what I'm thinking it can only withstand temps of up to 1,000 deg f, a chimney fire can burn +1500deg f)

Ya I would definitely be nervous with pink fibreglass touching a liner like that. Here by code only roxul would be allowed in that type of application. I know for a fact thats what they used on my installation where the class A penetrated through the old chimney and class A stays a hell of a lot cooler than a flexible liner.

 

[bholler]

Here by code only roxul would be allowed in that type of application.

Is roxul allowed by code in Canada? I am just curious Because i believe that technically it is not to code here either because it has not been tested but i am not sure on that. But i know that it is widely used here and it is rated for the temps so i dont see a problem with it.

 

[webby3650]

it really is not that permanent it comes out pretty well with a rotary cleaning

I know it will come out, it's just a huge mess. That's all
I hate using it, I see no good reason to ever use it with an insert.

 

[bholler]

I know it will come out, it's just a huge mess. That's all
I hate using it, I see no good reason to ever use it with an insert.

we have used it a few times when it is a really old chimney in bad condition on the interior in order to stabilize it. But i totally agree generally i would never use it for an insert

 

[jb6l6gc]

Is roxul allowed by code in Canada? I am just curious Because i believe that technically it is not to code here either because it has not been tested but i am not sure on that. But i know that it is widely used here and it is rated for the temps so i dont see a problem with it.

Yes it passes code here, or at least in my county. Both my W.E.T.T. certified installer and the W.E.T.T. certified building inspector for my county took pictures and notes of all steps of the installation, including the roxul. Again like I said in my reply though my application was roxul insulated up to a class A chimney penetrating through my wall and existing masonry chimney with a minimum 2" clearance to any combustibles. I'd imagine that liner in OP's picture would be quite hot where the pink insulation is, and that stuff is not too heat friendly.

I definitely would not be able to sleep at night knowing that stuff was in there!

 

[Simon Templar]

Thanks for the input everyone. I'll have to reach out to them to discuss it further, but frankly even though I said that I'm not interested in vendor-bashing I have to admit that my confidence isn't too high. As noted, they didn't clean my chimney first, they didn't install an insulated liner like they explained they would, they seem to be against block-off plates (I brought it up several times), and they seem to be really fond of lots of pink fiberglass insulation. With that said, I don't know that I'd trust their installation of a block-off plate since it doesn't seem to be their strength, even if they agreed to install one. But considering that I paid over $1200 for installation I consider it to be their problem to solve, so I'll have to talk with them more.

Another thing I noticed over the weekend was that not only has insulation been blowing into my family room, but it's also inside my firebox because I can't even see the cat anymore (the holes in the metal plate in front of the cat are full of insulation)

 

[bholler]

Another thing I noticed over the weekend was that not only has insulation been blowing into my family room, but it's also inside my firebox because I can't even see the cat anymore (the holes in the metal plate in front of the cat are full of insulation)

That means that there is a bad connection there somewhere. It needs to be fixed When you say certified what organization are they certified through? If it is csia you should report them installs like that make the rest of us look bad and it pisses me off

 

[Simon Templar]

If it is csia you should report them installs like that make the rest of us look bad and it pisses me off

Yes, according to their website they are csia certified. Bholler, I'm not sure I'm knowledgeable enough to know what to report. Can I contact csia to get some sort of authoritative 3rd party to identify what needs to be corrected?

I really don't like confrontations, I'm not an expert in any way here, I don't want money back or anything for free, but I just want a proper and safe installation. To that end I'm very grateful for everyone's time and attention here in this forum!

 

[bholler]

Yes, according to their website they are csia certified. Bholler, I'm not sure I'm knowledgeable enough to know what to report. Can I contact csia to get some sort of authoritative 3rd party to identify what needs to be corrected?
I really don't like confrontations, I'm not an expert in any way here, I don't want money back or anything for free, but I just want a proper and safe installation. To that end I'm very grateful for everyone's time and attention here in this forum!

Go to the csia website i beleive there is a link there to report contractors if not just message me in private and i will contact our state rep about it

 

[bholler]

(broken link removed to http://www.csia.org/homeowner-resources/csia_ethics_violation_procedure.aspx)
Here is the link

 

[Simon Templar]

Well this morning when the insert was cool I removed the plate in front of the cat with the intent of cleaning out the insulation (following the cleaning instructions in the owner's manual). I removed the plate, and when all the stuff blocking the cat fell away as I removed the plate I noticed a lot more damage than I expected (frankly I just expected to brush away the insulation with a soft brush). Now I'm pretty upset thinking I put my family's safety at risk every time I used the stove (not to mention the health effects of my young child being exposed to the insulation that was blowing into the family room). This damage might be completely from the insulation on the cat, or might have been made worse by the fact that during one of the trips here post-installation the tech failed to plug in the thermal switch on the fan so after he explained that the thermometer measures exhaust temps and it's normal for that to read pretty hot temps before the fan turns on, I should just wait for the fan to come on on it's own. I waited and the fan never turned on, but the stove was pretty hot for a whole burn cycle. After that I kept the fan on manual until his next trip to fix it, which he did.

It's a regency stove, but it seems really hard to find a contact number for them. Maybe I'm being unreasonable but I want regency to inspect the stove for damage before it's used again. If you look at the photo, past what's left of the cat to the back upper right corner it looks like the weld is cracked. That's not a trick of the photo; it looks cracked in real life too. Not sure if that's normal or not (I'm starting to be a little paranoid).

And here's a sarcastic comment (meant as humor) - with regard to the poured insulation being permanent, gosh, I don't agree. I can't even keep it in the chimney to begin with ;-)

BHoller, thanks for the link. I read the code of ethics and downloaded the form to report a violation, but I don't know what standards or codes were violated? It seems that pink fiberglass insulation is acceptable to some and not to others, so I don't know that it's unethical to use it. I do see that the installation section of the manual clearly says to thoroughly clean and inspect the fireplace, and csia's code of ethics has members follow manufacturer install procedures, but besides that, what would I report?

When I started this thread I just wanted the install corrected, but now I'm even less sure what it'll take to have piece of mind that my family isn't in danger when I light a fire.

(broken image removed)

 

[webby3650]

This is the type of damage that I expect to see from these Hybrid units. I'm not surprised at all! Woodstock being the exception here, they seem to really have it figured out. What you are experiencing is exactly why I would never pour in insulation with an insert, or ever have another Hybrid stove. Unless there are major changes in design, they just aren't built to be durable. Their design goes against years and years of R&D, protecting that cat is key! Secondary fire pouring through that cat is a recipe for disaster. At least they have a flame shield, Lopi forgot theirs.

 

[bholler]

Wow that is bad i would bet that there was insulation didnt help matters any but obviously the cat is shot but the plate under it and the bypass housing looks warped as well. I will get you the contact info for regency. They need to check it out for sure. As far as what to report first and most dangerous is the lack of cleaning but fiberglass is not an approved insulation for in a chimney and there for it violates the code of ethics to use it as well. There very well may be other problems as well but i am not there to look at it.

This is the type of damage that I expect to see from these Hybrid units. I'm not surprised at all! Woodstock being the exception here, they seem to really have it figured out. What you are experiencing is exactly why I would never pour in insulation with an insert, or ever have another Hybrid stove. Unless there are major changes in design, they just aren't built to be durable. Their design goes against years and years of R&D, protecting that cat is key! Secondary fire pouring through that cat is a recipe for disaster. At least they have a flame shield, Lopi forgot theirs.

I know you had a bad experience with a hybrid stove but this is the first regency that I have heard of so far with premature cat failure. Granted they have not been out long but over all I have heard mainly good things about them. Besides the fact that they exaggerate their burn times which for the most part is industry wide. And the few we have sold the customers are very happy with

 

[webby3650]

Wow that is bad i would bet that there was insulation didnt help matters any but obviously the cat is shot but the plate under it and the bypass housing looks warped as well. I will get you the contact info for regency. They need to check it out for sure. As far as what to report first and most dangerous is the lack of cleaning but fiberglass is not an approved insulation for in a chimney and there for it violates the code of ethics to use it as well. There very well may be other problems as well but i am not there to look at it.


I know you had a bad experience with a hybrid stove but this is the first regency that I have heard of so far with premature cat failure. Granted they have not been out long but over all I have heard mainly good things about them. Besides the fact that they exaggerate their burn times which for the most part is industry wide. And the few we have sold the customers are very happy with

Nothing against regency. Poorly protected cats have plagued the cat stove industry since the 80's. It's what gave cat stoves a bad name. There has been a race to make these hybrid stove in order to beat the new EPA regulations, I'm afraid there hasn't been enough destruction testing done to prove their durability.
It's interesting, Lopi ditched the cat in their newest models that were originally hybrid just the moment that the EPA relaxed its new requirements. At least for the moment..

 

[mellow]

How would the thermix insulation have made it to the cat? That looks like a typical trashed cat to me, it is falling apart from flame impingement and possibly thermal shock damage. Unless I am not understanding what is being said

 

[bholler]

How would the thermix insulation have made it to the cat? That looks like a typical trashed cat to me, it is falling apart from flame impingement and possibly thermal shock damage. Unless I am not understanding what is being said

The op said there was insulation in the stove behind the cat if they have a bad connection somewhere it could easily filter in and pile up behind the cat. But by the looks of the stove i think there is more than that going on here. Simon can you explain your burning procedure to us as well as your cat temps?

 

[mellow]

From the photo's it looks like the appliance connector is at an angle, but looks like it has sealed the collar with no large gaps visible, still trying to wrap my head around how insulation got in?