Advice on new insert in Texas

[SCChude]

My husband and I are looking into purchasing a wood-burning insert. We've been reading through a number of threads, have spoken to a couple of dealers and looked at a number of sales websites. However, we are still confused as to which insert is best for our purposes. Any advice would be welcome. We are in San Antonio, Texas, so our winters aren't exactly like y'all's up north and temperatures fluctuate widely.

Our home is a 2700 sq ft single story ranch built in 1967. It has a moderately open floor plan with a large living room separating the kitchen/dining room from the living spaces (which are off a long hallway). The fireplace is located to one side of the living room.

The dimensions of the opening are:

Front width: 36"
Back width: 30"
Height: 28.5"
Depth: 23"

The chimney is 16' from the ground to the top of the masonry. There are no angles or bends in the chimney.

We would like to have the insert provide all or most of the heat to the house. (Our ancient furnace is not safe to run at this time). We are not home to fire-tend intensively, so longer burn times would be good.

The models we like the look of so far are:

Quadrafire Voyageur Grand
Regency HI300 or HI400
Pacific Energy Alderlea T5 or Summit
Jotul 550, although the closest dealer is pretty far away.

The only quote we have so far is on the quadrafire at $4800 installed. This seems high. We do not know the ballpark costs for the other models, so if anyone that knows could chime in, that'd be great. Also, are there any other makes/models we should be considering?

Thanks!

 

[Grisu]

Welcome to the forum!

Given your more modest heating needs a catalytic insert would probably be a good option. Catalytic stoves allow a more controlled burn as well as low and steady heat output with the ability to crank it up when needed. They will also give you longer burn times. Unfortunately, there are not many cat inserts on the market. In terms of technology, the BlazeKing Princess would be a good choice but it is not what I would call a good-looking insert. The Buck 80 would maybe be another option. How deep is the hearth? Maybe you can fit a Woodstock Progess Hybrid stove in front of the fireplace.
From your list I would be a little cautious with the HI400. It is a new unit and Regency may need to work out some kinks before it will live up to its billing. Here is an extensive thread about it: https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads...y-ci2600-fireplace-insert-risky-costly.132252
I would add to your list the Enviro 1700 insert, probably the Boston model. With its 2.5 cu ft firebox size it should fit your needs and have the look you seem to prefer.

Have you thought about a pellet insert? They will give you thermostat-controlled heat and much longer burn times than most stoves can provide.

Now a few caveats:
It sounds like the insert would be on one end of the house. Stoves are space heaters and you may have difficulties to get the warm air to travel to the other end of the house. There are tricks like strategic placements of fans but 2700 sqft on one level will likely be a challenge.
Most inserts/stoves require at least 15 ft of chimney; that's just about what you have. During milder days you may have draft problems. Extending the liner with a few feet of class A pipe may become a necessity should that indeed happen.
With an exterior chimney an insulated liner is pretty much required. What are the inner chimney dimensions?
All modern stoves/inserts need dry wood with less than 20% internal moisture to perform well. How long has your wood been split and stacked?

To keep the heat in it is highly recommended to install a block-off plate: https://www.hearth.com/talk/wiki/make-a-damper-sealing-block-off-plate/
And insulating the fireplace may also be a good idea: https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/finally-got-around-to-insulating-my-fireplace.75755/

 

[Woody Stover]

That's a pretty roomy fireplace, should be able to fit most inserts, or some free-standing rear-vented stoves as well. In that climate, I'd go with a catalytic combustor stove so you can burn at low, even output and not roast yourselves out of the house. With a non-cat you will have to burn small fires and re-load more often if outside temps are moderate. Not sure how well the houses of that vintage are insulated down there, so maybe you would be burning hotter than I'm guessing you would...
As far as cost, that estimate doesn't sound excessively high, but others will have a better idea. If stainless chimney liner to the top is in the estimate, that can be expensive depending on the quality of the liner, weather a block-off plate is installed, etc. Installation is possible to do yourself if you are reasonably handy and detail-oriented, which would cut costs. Sounds pretty straightforward, with the straight shot up that you describe.

 

[BradleyW]

I agree that regular woodstove would be mostly a pain in the butt in your climate. You would basically be burning in what we would call shoulder season all winter long. That's when we use the furnace purposefully just to give it some exercise.

 

[brothermarkinter]

Hi SSChude,

I live right down the street in Houston and do not use a furnace for heat. I think while an insert is great, you
could fix up a gas furnace for similar costs as an insert in the long run instead of an insert. Heating needs are very mild here and if you are not home all day then it is more difficult to see a return on investment. The best value for money in this region is by far a natural gas insert. The heat they put out and the dirt cheap natural gas prices are very much worth it. It isn't the same experience though as wood IMO....[emoji1]

For the short run/sleeping quarters I highly recommend electric space heaters. They work excellent for the climate here. We have one in our bedroom and I never have had to run it full power to keep us warm. In fact I have it on a timer to kick on once in the morning when I get up and before bed time. I absolutely refuse to run our electric furnace.

Please understand too that I am not trying to turn you away from wood. I also heat with wood in an open fire place in our tiny apartment. I am just simply trying to point out that the economics of heating with wood here are quite different than up North. I couldn't even find a place to sell me a cord of wood, let alone dry wood (which is extremely important for newer inserts). I personally do not think you should look into longer burning times if you aren't home all day. The temperature here does not get cold enough to burn 24/7 unless you are just a hobbiest burner.

Good luck and keep us posted Also welcome to the forums


ps: quoted installation cost sounds about right for a new insert. It isn't cheap but they last awhile

 

[SCChude]

Thanks for all the input!

We went through last winter without heat, used 3 space heaters and lots of blankets. Unfortunately, we forgot about winter coming up while the summer temps were in the 100s. (oops!) We have a propane furnace, but the burners are rusted and no one has been able to round up replacement parts. Worse, they don't make the size/air output combination anymore, so we were quoted $5500 to put in 2 units side-by side to match the air handling capacity.

We have access to quite a bit of oak for free, it's just not seasoned enough for this year. Some of it is cut and some is downed large trees. The local grocery stores sell kiln-dried though.

The house is not well insulated in the attic, I assume the walls are similar. We did consider self installing, since we do most things ourselves. I'm just nervous with the potential fire hazard.

The hearth is 22" deep.

 

[Simonkenton]

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Williams...with-Automatic-Thermostat-3056511-9/202630660

I have a propane heater similar to this one in my house. Mine is 20,000 BTU, in a 1,200 sq ft house in the NC mountains and it heats the entire house. My house is very tightly built and has R42 in the ceiling.

The heater in the link is 30,000 BTU for $371. Installation would cost you about $150. That is quite a bang for the buck.

My heater, and I believe this one also, are not ventilated. You can install such a heater in a living room or den, but not in a bedroom. For a bedroom install you get a similar heater that is ventilated.

I love my little propane heater. Mine uses no electricity. It has a thermostat, I just set that at 68 degrees and forget it. It makes no noise. Good God, some of these central furnaces sound like a 767 on takeoff.

I spend a lot of time in San Antonio, driving through there, and making deliveries there in my 18 wheeler. Just drove in on I 10 and turned left on I 35 yesterday afternoon about 3 pm. Am in Laredo now.
For a place with such a mild winter climate, you might do better with the propane heater than the wood stove. Heating with propane is lots cheaper than electric space heaters.

 

[Grisu]

How about mini-split heatpumps? More efficient than space heaters, could also handle the cooling and be augmented with a solar PV installation so that your fuel will be free.

We have access to quite a bit of oak for free, it's just not seasoned enough for this year. Some of it is cut and some is downed large trees. The local grocery stores sell kiln-dried though.

Cut but not split oak is still 2 years away from being dry. And dead trees are a bit of a lottery whether they are dry or not. The kiln-dried wood from the grocery store will cost you more than your space heaters.

 

[BrotherBart]

Lots of inserts available that would add significant heat to that place for a thousand to two thousand plus eight or nine hundred for installation and a chimney liner. Looks factor is a different thing. That can cost ya a couple of thousand.

BB - Native West Texan that always requests that new members send me some breakfast tacos. Damn I miss those things from when I visited our San Antonio branch.

 

[BrotherBart]

I spend a lot of time in San Antonio, driving through there, and making deliveries there in my 18 wheeler.

I took a wrong off ramp at three in the morning in a five axle rig and got a really good look at the Alamo. From the parking lot.

 

[SCChude]

New question. Along with the (myriad) issues with too wet wood, does burning it cause an insert to have a shorter life span? I'm pretty sure it shortens the life of a cat, but what about a non-cat? Obviously the chimney would need to be cleaned more often and we wouldn't get efficient burning/heat production, and, and, and... Main thing is, would it actually ruin anything? Is there a way to mix dry/wet woods to minimize the issues?

I just got off the phone with a sweep who's the local Regency rep. I had to explain what a block-off plate was and how it worked. He insisted that it wasn't necessary. But I have trouble accepting his word for it, if he didn't know what it was in the first place. The Quadrafire rep didn't know either, but I haven't talked directly to their install guy.

 

[BrotherBart]

I had to explain what a block-off plate was and how it worked.

Send'em to class.

https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/articles/making_a_block_off_plate/

 

[SCChude]

Send'em to class.

https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/articles/making_a_block_off_plate/

I just e-mailed that to him. Thanks.

 

[Grisu]

New question. Along with the (myriad) issues with too wet wood, does burning it cause an insert to have a shorter life span? I'm pretty sure it shortens the life of a cat, but what about a non-cat? Obviously the chimney would need to be cleaned more often and we wouldn't get efficient burning/heat production, and, and, and... Main thing is, would it actually ruin anything? Is there a way to mix dry/wet woods to minimize the issues?

There are, unfortunately, a lot of people who burn wet wood in their stoves and kind of get away with it. I therefore assume you would not ruin one especially if that is only for one season before you have your wood seasoned. I also doubt that a cat stove (especially when it is a ceramic cat) will fail in just one season. Nevertheless, you would run the risk of a chimney fire which may ruin your new liner and endanger you and your house. Plus, the fire will most likely be so hard to keep going and weak that your are wondering how the insert will ever be able to heat your home.

Try to find some dry wood like lumber scraps, wood pallets, or compressed wood logs like Bio-Bricks, Envi-Blocks etc. The latter have a very low moisture content and can easily be mixed with not so dry wood to get the overall moisture in the load to less than 20%.

 

[SCChude]

Thanks, everybody!

I appreciate the tips on alternate ways to heat the house. The solar idea is great, but the house is almost completely shaded by live oak and pecan trees. It pretty much comes down to the fact that we like wood. My husband grew up cutting and hauling wood for his dad's stove and is looking forward to teaching our kids. (he's got a while to wait before he's got help though... the oldest is 4!) Trouble is, his dad handled most of the rest of the details of the stove. Need to call and pick his brain, although I'm sure that old stove is a different breed altogether.

I really like the looks of the Enviro Boston 1700, but the closest dealer is several hours away. The PE Alderlea has a distributor here, but they don't seem familiar with the unit and I'd have to get a 3rd party installer.

Since there doesn't seem to be much to choose from between the Voyageur Grand and the HI400, we're waiting to see how the customer service of the dealers works out. If neither one will install a block-off plate, then I guess it's time to go borrow my dad's sheet metal tools.

I've been reading threads on both inserts regarding some fussiness issues. I figure that barring an actual lemon, most of the trouble relates to proper install, learning curve, and dry wood. Does that sound about right?

 

[brothermarkinter]

Having a proper instal on a fireplace insert certainly makes a world of difference.

Learning curve wise though...what's more fun than learning to heat with wood? [emoji4] Absolute joyous experience IMHO.

Dry wood definitely super important. Burning wet wood in an insert will clog your chimney faster than most would believe. We had a case here when the first cold snap came in where a family smoked themselves out of their home due to their chimney being clogged. They just didn't check.

Much of the same tips your husband's father can give him will certainly help with the learning curve

Btw I love the look of the HI400!

 

[Woody Stover]

Much of the same tips your husband's father can give him will certainly help with the learning curve Btw I love the look of the HI400!

If Gramps was burning an old smoke-blower, he may not have a lot of advice that will apply to a modern stove, other than "burn dry wood."
There's a big thread going on the HI400's sister, the Regency CI2600. Some were having problems getting long burn times, but they seem to be getting it figured out...

 

[SCChude]

Well, the Regency guy is giving me a run around about the block-off plate implying that it would void the warranty. Time to see if the Quadrafire folks are more educated/educatable.

 

[SCChude]

Official reply from Regency:

Thank you for your email.

The HI400 or CI2600 insert is a hybrid insert using new technology combinations. To achieve the highest level of low emissions standards, you need to consider that the chimney is a vital part of this. If by block-off plate all you mean is to block off around the liner which goes from the stove collar to the chimney cap, then yes, this is okay. But if by block-off plate you mean to only install a partial chimney liner then block off the damper area, then you are not able to do this.

I hope this helps.

Joe Giannandrea
Director, Technical Services(broken image removed)
Regency Fireplace Products ... 30 Years of Quality!
6988 Venture Street, Delta, BC Canada V4G 1H4
Phone: 604-946-5155
Fax: 604-952-6629
E-mail: [email protected]
Website: http://www.regency-fire.com

 

[SCChude]

Ok, finally talked to one of the installer guys with the Quadrafire rep... turns out they already install it with the block-off. So, it's ordered and I'll keep y'all posted!

 

[begreen]

Well, the Regency guy is giving me a run around about the block-off plate implying that it would void the warranty. Time to see if the Quadrafire folks are more educated/educatable.

That is not a run around. They are saying a full liner is ok, but a stubbed, partial liner is not.

 

[SCChude]

Sorry to be misleading. The local Regency rep/installer guy didn't have a clue at all, and said "Perhaps QuadraFire requiresa the block-off plate, but Regency does not. It may even void their warranty so we do not install them." I then e-mailed Regency directly and got the reply you see above. This is after I made several attempts to get him to read the articles y'all recommended.

 

[begreen]

OK, that is a different story. Hate it when the dealer is blowing smoke. I understand your concern now.

 

[brothermarkinter]

If Gramps was burning an old smoke-blower, he may not have a lot of advice that will apply to a modern stove, other than "burn dry wood."

Hahah good point there It's incredible how much has changed in the past few decades when you think about it.

 

[SCChude]

Finally back, everybody! Just got our new quad installed yesterday, *with* block-off plate. The installer made one out of cement board.

Even with our less than ideal wood, the house is warmer this morning than it has been in forever. Day before the insert was installed, 2 fan-equiped space heaters could barely keep the living room at 60. Got the first fire going around 5pm, gradually stoked it up with our better wood, and finally closed it down at 11. This morning at 6:30, loads of coals, blower still on, living room still at 62.5... and the rest of the house in the high 50s. We've been waking up to 52 degree bedrooms, so 57 feels awesome! Kids and dogs are glued to living room.