Advice & Suggestions

[bemental]

Ladies and gentlemen,



Fireplace measurements:
37''(w)
25''(h)
26''(d)

At 18''(d) 21''(rw)


Recently got with a local installer regarding our open fireplace on the first floor of our home. Asked them to come by and give us a quote, and what they thought of the setup.

Quote:


He said due to the size we'd be limited to either a wood or pellet insert.

Finally, my wife sent me this:


Never heard of one before, but the principal makes sense. Wouldn't mind some insight into conductive wood heating as I start digging into the research, specifically cost and inserting one into our current chimney. I will say that our chimney is a 'double' with the basement having its own separate chimney directly behind that currently isn't being used due to a very old wood stove.

 

[begreen]

A masonry heater is built from scratch. It needs a strong foundation to carry its weight. This would require a complete tearout. They don't make masonry inserts. The closest you could come would be to put a soapstone stove on the hearth in front.

If you search on "masonry" in this forum you will see discussions of this type of heater. Cost of installation depends on the size and design, but expect it to start at $20K and go up. A popular Finnish brand installed here is a Tulikivi.

 

[bholler]

No you cannot put a masonry heater in an existing chimney. To put a masonry heater in there it would mean tearing everything down and starting from scratch. They are great heaters but they are massive and generally very expensive.

 

[Grisu]

Since you have an interior fireplace, the insert will almost replicate the feeling of a masonry heater. The bricks around it will warm up and slowly release the heat into the house over time. However, I don't see a block-off plate listed in the quote. Insist on one! Otherwise a substantial portion of your heat will go up the chimney. Pretty much all members here who put one in noticed a significant improvement in the heating abilities of their stove. Here are some instructions how to make one: https://www.hearth.com/talk/wiki/make-a-damper-sealing-block-off-plate/

 

[bemental]

First, sorry for the zombie thread everyone, something came up (life) and I had to jump ship for a bit.

Copy all on the masonry, good initiative, bad judgement ;-)

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Installing company sent me another quote, with a different insert. I'm not too sure about model differences at this point, or what even to look for. But, while I do some more research and start to learn, I would love to know what people think about the models they selected and provide any additional information:


(broken link removed to http://www.woodheat.com/products/fireplace-inserts/wood-inserts/jotul-c-450-kennebec.html) ($3,039)
33 Elite Plus Arch ($3,618)


Thanks again everyone.

 

[bemental]

Looks like variable speed fans to control burn rate, solid construction, as much cast iron as possible (> longevity over steel), and blowers to move heat into the room.

What'd I miss?

 

[bholler]

All of those points are good but cast does not have more longevity than steel in fact if anything it is the other way around. Not to say there is anything wrong with cast stoves but they have seams that eventually can need attention. The 2 stoves you linked to are steel body stoves the jotul has a cast face the fpx has steel face. The jotul is a tube stove the fpx is a hybrid stove and has allot more btu output than the jotul

 

[byQ]

You already have a fireplace there so there must be some sort of support system for it. A masonry heater could be built right in front of where the fireplace is but you might need further support.

A masonry heater could be designed with channels or bells (these are the internal chambers) to sizes that cover up the existing fireplace.These guys anchored a masonry heater to the existing fireplace - basically covering up the old fireplace. And they used the existing chimney by placing a pipe in it (and insulating the pipe). Norbert Senf (who was one of the judges in the Wood Stove Challenge) helped design this masonry heater. And the mason laying all of that river rock is the president of the masonry heater association, Dan Givens.

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[bemental]

Once again, appreciate the responses everyone - in a world where these are the only choices (because in essence I know so litter and am relying on the installer very heavily to provide suggestions for the space and chimney setup we currently have), I'm leaning towards the second model.

From the face of it, I'm not the biggest fan of the catalytics, but since this is a hybrid system and the gasses are reburned first, I would expect the cat to be used minimally over time and require less replacing then a system with a cat only.

 

[jeffesonm]

I looked at the 33 Elite but decided against it because of the firebox size. It is super wide but only like 12" deep in the middle, and tapers on both sides. That means you have to load logs in East/West (left to right) as opposed to North/South (front to back). You can't pile up much wood E/W otherwise it will roll forward into the glass. It might seem like a subtle difference, especially if you're new to wood burning stoves, but I think you would be much happier with a stove that has a more square firebox. I can't tell if the Jotul C450 is any better in that respect.

The measurements you listed above look pretty big to me. It's 37'' wide by 25'' high by 26'' deep? What do you mean by 18''(d) 21''(rw)?

 

[bemental]

I looked at the 33 Elite but decided against it because of the firebox size. It is super wide but only like 12" deep in the middle, and tapers on both sides. That means you have to load logs in East/West (left to right) as opposed to North/South (front to back). You can't pile up much wood E/W otherwise it will roll forward into the glass. It might seem like a subtle difference, especially if you're new to wood burning stoves, but I think you would be much happier with a stove that has a more square firebox. I can't tell if the Jotul C450 is any better in that respect.

The measurements you listed above look pretty big to me. It's 37'' wide by 25'' high by 26'' deep? What do you mean by 18''(d) 21''(rw)?

Those were the measurements given to me by the guy who's doing our estimate, so I'm not exactly sure - but our fireplace does taper in the back and I know he's only offering us stoves that will fit those dimensions (obviously).

Any suggestions on other stoves?

 

[bemental]

My thinking is that we'll be able to get away with only loading the tapered unit 2/3 of the way N/S, as you said, since we'll be able to control the burn rate (and it's rated to put out more heat anyway, assuming that's mostly from the efficiency of the unit since they're both similar volumes).

We could load E/W on particularly cold nights I suppose - but again, more information is welcome!

 

[jeffesonm]

The taper is important and will help determine what fits and what doesn't. The 33 Elite fit in my fireplace as did the Osburn Matrix, which I ended up purchasing and was very happy with.

The other thing to consider is that it's probably okay if the insert doesn't go all the way back against the back wall of the fireplace, and sticks out onto the hearth a bit. In that case you might just need a hearth pad or something non combustible in front of it. But exact clearances will depend on the stove.

Grab a tape measure and take a few pics of it in the fireplace opening, showing the taper. Mine was also tapered and a very close fit based on measurements, so I made a scale model before I ordered it. I used some cardboard boxes to make a box that was the same size as the stove and then stuck it in there to see if it would fit.

 

[bemental]

The taper is important and will help determine what fits and what doesn't. The 33 Elite fit in my fireplace as did the Osburn Matrix, which I ended up purchasing and was very happy with.

The other thing to consider is that it's probably okay if the insert doesn't go all the way back against the back wall of the fireplace, and sticks out onto the hearth a bit. In that case you might just need a hearth pad or something non combustible in front of it. But exact clearances will depend on the stove.

Grab a tape measure and take a few pics of it in the fireplace opening, showing the taper. Mine was also tapered and a very close fit based on measurements, so I made a scale model before I ordered it. I used some cardboard boxes to make a box that was the same size as the stove and then stuck it in there to see if it would fit.

I was informed, due to the regulations in our area we'll have to get a small extension added to our hearth.

Found this quote on a thread about a Lopi Freedom, tapered insert:

I'd have no problems with the taper if my wood hadn't been cut for a much larger firebox. Based on my experience during that recent cold spell, I'll have very little use for full loads anyway, two splits e/w is enough to make my house a sauna in most weather.

TE

I'm thinking this may apply to us as well. Our entire upstairs livable space is somewhere around 1500 sq ft, and we're really only looking to heat the main living area and adjacent kitchen. Residual heat down the hall to the bedrooms will be nice, but we're not expecting it to reach the farthest parts of the home.


After we get an insert installed, our next project is a dual PV/Hot Water solar project, with either a mini split or two for the home or radiant in-floor heating. Between the wood insert and the mini splits, we look to be off oil entirely by next winter, using the combination of those two for heating, and the solar hot water and a hot water heat pump/electric hot water heater to supplement domestic hot water.

 

[bholler]

Do you have wood yet? if you want to be off oil by next winter you need to be processing wood now

 

[bemental]

Do you have wood yet? if you want to be off oil by next winter you need to be processing wood now

We do, we're one year ahead at this point. We'll be purchasing unseasoned wood soon for two years down the line.

 

[bholler]

good

 

[jeffesonm]

How much oil a year do you need to heat your 1500 sq ft house and what is your zip code?

 

[bemental]

How much oil a year do you need to heat your 1500 sq ft house and what is your zip code?

Estimating 1300-1500 gallons/year; 04473.

 

[jeffesonm]

So let's say 1400 gallons/year and your area somewhere in the neighborhood of 9,000 heating degree days/year. I did some real rough math and based off numbers based in this post and I get something like 25-45k BTU/hr heat loss when it's 30-0 degrees out. You use about 50% more oil than I did and it's about 60% colder than here in NJ, but my house is 1800 vs your 1500 so it's almost a wash I would say. Regardless that is not an insignificant amount of coldness. I pack my F55 full time after time all winter long and it barely keeps the house warm, so I would definitely recommend a stove you can pack full of wood. You can always burn smaller fires but once it's full, it's full.

 

[pdxdave]

Once again, appreciate the responses everyone - in a world where these are the only choices (because in essence I know so litter and am relying on the installer very heavily to provide suggestions for the space and chimney setup we currently have), I'm leaning towards the second model.

From the face of it, I'm not the biggest fan of the catalytics, but since this is a hybrid system and the gasses are reburned first, I would expect the cat to be used minimally over time and require less replacing then a system with a cat only.

I'd recommend to do more research into the real world burn times and heating abilities of this model - I personally would recommend against it strongly.

 

[bemental]

So let's say 1400 gallons/year and your area somewhere in the neighborhood of 9,000 heating degree days/year. I did some real rough math and based off numbers based in this post and I get something like 25-45k BTU/hr heat loss when it's 30-0 degrees out. You use about 50% more oil than I did and it's about 60% colder than here in NJ, but my house is 1800 vs your 1500 so it's almost a wash I would say. Regardless that is not an insignificant amount of coldness. I pack my F55 full time after time all winter long and it barely keeps the house warm, so I would definitely recommend a stove you can pack full of wood. You can always burn smaller fires but once it's full, it's full.

Thanks Jeffe, I appreciate the insight.

I'd recommend to do more research into the real world burn times and heating abilities of this model - I personally would recommend against it strongly.

Dave, recommend against it strongly because we don't know more about the burn times and heating abilities? You didn't provide much in way of explanation.

We have the *advertised* space that it will heat, and the tapered nature of the box as points of contention currently.

***edit: from the manual;
Heating Specifications:
Approximate Maximum Heating Capacity (in square feet)* 1,200 to 2,000
Maximum Burn Time Up to 10 Hours Heating capacity will vary depending on the home's floor plan, degree of insulation, and the outside temperature. It is also affected by the quality and moisture level of the fuel.

Think that's pretty boilerplate stuff, but still worth the mention***

Interested to know what else you think.

 

[pdxdave]

Thanks Jeffe, I appreciate the insight.



Dave, recommend against it strongly because we don't know more about the burn times and heating abilities? You didn't provide much in way of explanation.

We have the *advertised* space that it will heat, the tapered nature of the box, the dual blowers...

Interested to know what else you think.

No problem - I just don't want to come across as a total basher on the product, but truth be told I've regretted very much getting the insert I have which is very similar to what you are looking at only without the catalytic I believe. The issues I've had - poor burn times (3 hours-ish), poor heat output, excess dust, if you search you'll find a common theme with this whole product line. I'm not saying Travis is a bad manufacturer but if you look carefully it's hard to find alot of positive feedback on these units. At first I believed I had bad or poorly seasoned wood, until I went to friends place that was burning the same exact wood we had collected together and saw just how much better burns he was getting. Insert LOOKS great, everything else is meh, at best.

 

[bemental]

That's alright, takes all sorts.

I saw that in your tagline, the Declaration. It is relatively hard for me to find many with experiences with this unit.

I'll keep on looking, and bring up these very points of interest tomorrow in a phone conversation with the dealer.


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On another note, did you go for the GreenStart option they sell? My wife is really liking the idea of a 'push button start' for a wood stove. I could care less, especially since I'm going to be the one loading, starting and stoking the thing anyway.

 

[bemental]

After sleeping on this, and speaking with the installer this morning, I believe this is going to boil down to whether or not we'd like a square or tapered box (square), and whether or not the hybrid system is worth the added efficiencies vs cleaning/maintenance costs.

I asked about the block off plate that Grisu inquired about, and their response that instead of a plate they're installing a thermal blanket the length of the chimney for heat loss prevention purposes.

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Anyone have any insight into these hybrid systems for me?