alternative to spray foam insulation on underground piping

[leaddog]

I just got done with my underground piping and thought I would pass on a new product that I used. It was a pourable form of closedcell foam. http://www.masterpkg.com/index.htm
First some background on what I'm doing. I am redoing my system and putting 4-500gal tanks next to my house. My eko-80 is 100ft away in a shed. I had these 12in cement culverts so I placed them in the ground. Inside them I used 6in black drain pipe and inside that I ran my pex. Two 1in supply and Two 1in returns. They were wraped with two turns of bubble/bubble/foil and placed inside the 6in pipe along with extra tubing. I wanted to have 3in of foam in the culverts around the pipe and was going to have a contractor come and foam it or use tigerfoam.
In my wanderings on the net I ran into the Masterpac site and gave them a call. I talked to him and he thought there pourable foam would do what I wanted. I bought some (2-5gal cans of A and B) $500 pls shipping He also thought I should buy the cleaner and gloves and measuring containers. ($65) He said the yield should be about 60cubic feet. Shipping ended up at $150 ( not happy)
Now the advantage of the pourable foam was the lower cost because there is no hasmet charge in shipping.
The foam came and I started to use it. One quart A and one quart B pour into container mixfast and pour. Well I was pouring into a hole and this stuffstarted to foam with in 5 seconds and it didn't have time to run very far into the culvert. Bottem line I didn't get the yield I needed and didn't fill where I wanted. It might work on a trench but you had to be FAST or else. I wasn't happy at all.
That monday I called them and told them what had happened. He called me back and said that he had a different product that they use to make surf boards from.
closed cell, 200f+ and VERY slow rising. He sent me some and after the third shipment because first fed-ex and then ups damaging the shipments I got it last Friday. I used it Sat. and here are my thoughts on the next post

 

[leaddog]

The foam is quite easy to use. I measured out a quart of A and a quart of B. I had a paint mixer on a drill and as my wife poured them into a container I mixed them. I mixed for about 15sec and then carried it down to where I meeded to pour it. I poured it into the holes and then whent and mixed more. The foam would run into the culvert and spead well. after about 2 min. it would start to foam up slowly and then get faster. It was hard to guage how much to put into each hole to fill up to where I wanted so I had to go slow.
I was supposed to get about 60 cubic ft yeild and I estimate I got 50 but the temp was 45F and some of it was confiened tight inside the culvert so it made it more dense.
I pours some in a trench and it worked very well and I think that if some one would make a box out of blue board in a u shape or a v shape and lay there pipe in that and then pour in two pours it would be a very nice job and would be cheaper than some other ways of doing it.
I don't think you need the solvent for cleanning up but you do NEED the gloves and need some plastic containers to measure and mix in. You have to pour evenly in a trench do two pours as the first pour will spread out and up and the second will cover the top.
It hardens into a very hard ,water proof , insulation just like the spray foam.
The advantage are as follows:
Cost- $500 for 50 to 60 cu-ft
cost of shipping should be less because of no hasmet fee (check first but I think they have that ok now)
You don't need a contractor to do it
I think you can buy smaller or larger quanities
ease of use, Just go slow and see what you have to do at first.
You can start and stop when you want to with out gun pluging up

If you want more info you can contact (I'm just passing on the info but I told him If I was happy with the product that he would be hearing from alot of people so telling him that he heard about it on this site would be good as maybe he would work even more on develiping this for this purpose.)
Mark Fleming
949-487-2068
Master Pack

leaddog

 

[taxidermist]

Les,

With your 100' run of pex ,bubble rap, drain tube and foam what would your est.price for your run? Just curious what it would compare to the other products?


Rob

 

[leaddog]

Les,

With your 100' run of pex ,bubble rap, drain tube and foam what would your est.price for your run? Just curious what it would compare to the other products?


Rob

Well the culvert cost 1 day hauling, the black drain pipe $75, the 400ft of pex about $250, the bubble wrap $25(auction item),Foam $600( not counting the first batch exsperment). Total about $9.50 a ft. So I got a run that I can run HEAVY equipment over with 3in of foam surrounding a 6in conduit with pex insulated with bubble wrap, with 4in pex runs.

Now if I didn't have the culvert and bubblewrap I would do it like this.
Take 1in blueboard and cut it into 1ft strips. Lay it in the trench in a V
depending on what pex and how many runs of pex I would lay the cheap poly in that andrun the pex inside. (1inpex use 1-1/4, or 4in for two 1in, or two 4in for four. Plus an extra on for elect runs. The reason for this is you can pull new pex or wire later if for some reason you have to.
Tape all the pipe into a bundle, Add some spacers on each side of the pipe to get the foam space you want
Make your first pour on the whole run and this will foam up on the bottem and sides and then make your next pour on the top
I would then cover with plastic and backfill.

The estimated cost for this should be about: $600 to $850 for foam depending on how thick, your pex under $300, poly pipe under $150, and foam board about $75.
leaddog

 

[88rxn/a]

thank you for sharing with us.....
gives me another idea for when i need to do this next summer...

 

[taxidermist]

Les,

With your 100' run of pex ,bubble rap, drain tube and foam what would your est.price for your run? Just curious what it would compare to the other products?


Rob

Well the culvert cost 1 day hauling, the black drain pipe $75, the 400ft of pex about $250, the bubble wrap $25(auction item),Foam $600( not counting the first batch exsperment). Total about $9.50 a ft. So I got a run that I can run HEAVY equipment over with 3in of foam surrounding a 6in conduit with pex insulated with bubble wrap, with 4in pex runs.

Now if I didn't have the culvert and bubblewrap I would do it like this.
Take 1in blueboard and cut it into 1ft strips. Lay it in the trench in a V
depending on what pex and how many runs of pex I would lay the cheap poly in that andrun the pex inside. (1inpex use 1-1/4, or 4in for two 1in, or two 4in for four. Plus an extra on for elect runs. The reason for this is you can pull new pex or wire later if for some reason you have to.
Tape all the pipe into a bundle, Add some spacers on each side of the pipe to get the foam space you want
Make your first pour on the whole run and this will foam up on the bottem and sides and then make your next pour on the top
I would then cover with plastic and backfill.

The estimated cost for this should be about: $600 to $850 for foam depending on how thick, your pex under $300, poly pipe under $150, and foam board about $75.
leaddog

Compared to my install of Logstor insulated pipe $12.95 per foot =$1295.00 for 100' of double 1" pex
But Les installed 4 =1" pex pipes more insulation for $200.00 more or less

Good job Les, hopefully this is your last underground instalation

 

[Rick Stanley]

I needed 170 ft. (one way) of 1-1/4inch for my trench. All of the pre-insulated solid foam stuff, like thermopex, microflex and insulpex were coming in at $25-$29 /ft. for 1-1/4in.SHIPPED. I couldn't find an insulation company to do the "in trench" spray that had a product Garn would stand behind. So we ended up renting a uhaul and driving 400 miles round trip to meet a delivery truck in a Mcdonalds parking lot that was delivering from PA to N.H. After figuring the fuel, rental and freight charge, plus the pipe, we ended up paying $18.70/ft. Of course it blew a whole day to do it, but I guess it was worth it to save $1700 off from the shipped price. We plan to run some greenhouse heat lines and maybe some heat to other buildings in the future.
Sounds like this pour foam may be the best idea yet. A totally DIY method, I like it. Thanks!!