another newbe another zero clearance question

[mosquito]

Hello everyone i have been surfing around here for a couple of years now but after last year outrageous electric bills im finally ready. I built my house 11 years ago and put a pre fab in . I have never burned wood because i was scared to burn anything in that tin can. So it should be in good shape. I have been to a few fireplace dealers and they are set to come out and look and give me some prices on a regular wood burning insert. So is it safe to where me and my family can sleep soundly at night. The model is a white mountain vfsr-24-3. I tried to get a hold of white mountain but there is no contact number just an email. I live in the middle of the woods so firewood is not a problem. I still plan on leaving the thermostat set at 60 but i plan on burning the majority of the time. Thank you

 

[Grisu]

The model is a white mountain vfsr-24-3

Are you sure that is the model of your fireplace? When googling I find this: (broken link removed to http://www.whitemountainhearth.com/assets/WMH/manuals/ArchiveManuals/VFS%28R,V%29-%2816,18,24,30%29-3;%20VFSM-%2818,24,30%29-3.pdf)
It looks more like a gas burner that can be installed in a fireplace than the fireplace itself. Can you post some pics?

 

[mosquito]

I think you right , would it be labeled on the fireplace

 

[bholler]

In general no you cant put an insert in a zeroclearance unit unless both the manufacturer of the zc unit and the insert agree that it is ok. And there are very few zc manufacturers that are ok with it

 

[mosquito]

So how do i figure that out

 

[Grisu]

Check for a label; could be in the front at the bottom. Also take a look what kind of pipe you have and what diameter. Since you say you built the house: Any way you have a manual or maybe the installer would still know?

 

[mosquito]

Ok i had my installer come out and take a look. He said it it a fmi / ihp model pre fab, zc . He is going to get back to me in a few days with an exact price. They are going to give me a price for a regency i2400 and a Hampton hi300. He said the stove liner and new cap is going to be roughly 3200 -3800 installed. Does this seem fair and safe ?

 

[bholler]

Cant find anything on an ihp model but this is in every manual i found of theirs. so in my mind there is no way that you can put an insert in there and be to code

Use of an insert in a FMI PRODUCTS, LLC
fireplace. FMI PRODUCTS, LLC does not
recommend or authorize the use of any
insert in our fireplaces and will assume no
responsibility for any damages caused by
an insert.

 

[mosquito]

Well that stinks he said he has put hundreds in the last 10 years. He is also the original installer, great reputation.

 

[Grisu]

It's a grey area. ZC fireplace manufacturers rarely allow the installation of an insert but several insert models on the market have been approved for an install in a ZC fireplace. It is up to the homeowner to decide whether he feels safe in that situation and the local code authority and the home insurance to approve it. One caveat that Brother Bart pointed out is to make sure the base of the ZC fireplace supports another 400+ lb of weight.

A safer alternative is to place a rear-vented stove on the hearth in front of the fireplace and run some pipe into a tee and connect it to a liner. That's usually no problem to get approved. You will need to check whether your lintel height from the hearth is large enough and probably extend the hearth.

 

[bholler]

Well that stinks he said he has put hundreds in the last 10 years. He is also the original installer, great reputation.

And if anything goes wrong with one of them he will loose everything there is a good reason that every professional organization here says not to do it. If anything goes wrong and you went against the manufacturers directions then you are responsible and there isnt an insurance company that will cover it.

 

[begreen]

Essentially it is a liability issue, not necessarily a safety issue. It is untested by the fireplace mfg. and therefore not lab certified. The insert mfg. usually does extensive testing in their own labs, but that is not enough assurance for some.

 

[bholler]

The insert mfg. usually does extensive testing in their own labs, but that is not enough assurance for some.

On what fireplaces in what condition and to what standards? There is no industry accepted standard to test to. Yes it is a liability issue meaning if something happens and your insurance company sees that line in the instructions saying no inserts and you put one in they will not cover it. Unless you showed it to them before and they gave you written confirmation that they will cover you despite violating the manufacturers instructions and by doing so voiding the ul listing. I for one am not willing to risk a 40 year old business my father built to make a quick buck like that. And by the way all of those insert manufacturers say you need to install it into a ul listed unit installed to those manufacturers specs. And if you install their insert in one that does not say it is ok to do so you are going against those instructions as well so they wont back you up either. It is a very big risk and as a pro i feel i need to advise everyone of the risks involved. Also did the installer do a full inspection of your fireplace? To do so you need to pull the chase cover so you can see down inside and confirm clearances and condition. I will tell you that many zc boxes i inspect have serious installation errors.

 

[begreen]

There is no fault in being safe. On that all are agreed. Still there are lots of ifs including on whether a problem becomes an insurance issue or not. Stove makers would not be making inserts approved for ZCs unless they too considered the safety and liability concerns. This has already been covered in great depth and in many previous postings.

 

[bholler]

Stove makers would not be making inserts approved for ZCs unless they too considered the safety and liability concerns. This has already been covered in great depth and in many previous postings.

the liability does not fall on them it falls on the installer be it a pro or the homeowner. I don't want to debate this over and over either but as long as people ask the question I will give them the answer that i and every professional organization in the country feels is correct.

 

[begreen]

That's a broad statement. I've only seen CSIA take the "we don't want the liability at this time" stance. Are you saying that a professional organization like HPBA also feels this way?

 

[Grisu]

I am also still wondering how UL can allow on the tag of the insert the statement that it can be installed in a prefab fireplace when supposedly that is unsafe and not tested? Do they now approve it or not?

 

[begreen]

It is not known to be unsafe, just that all units have not been tested. Some companies specify which ZC units they have tested and approved, others do not. I continue to ask this question. So far the answers I get are that it is a question of liability. However, the largest, like Travis and Regency seem ok with this question. I just emailed NCSG and HPBA to get their perspectives.

Another question I would like answered is how many incidents have been reported where a properly installed insert in a ZC has failed? I have no idea if this is a one in a hundred or a one in a million concern. That would be helpful info. I can't recall anyone ever reporting a failure here but maybe some sweeps or stove shops have seen issues directly related to the insert and not a faulty installation?

 

[mosquito]

I think im more confused now .

 

[begreen]

As noted, this is a question of liability. Ask your insurance company what they require. If it is to have the stove installed by a professional shop and inspected, the installation may be ok in their eyes once their criteria is met.

The alternatives are to install a freestanding, rear-vented stove and extend the hearth, or replace the current ZC with a modern EPA unit designed for heating, or remove the ZC and convert the space to an alcove installation of a freestanding stove. The latter option would require a wide enough space to meet or exceed the stove clearance requirements. That usually means about a 48" wide or more chase.

 

[aansorge]

Take that zc out, sell it, and put a high efficiency wood zc in.

 

[bholler]

I think im more confused now

The good news is that if you have it installed by an insured pro then you are covered. The liability goes to them not you. I don't think that it is necessarily a safety issue. If the zc is installed correctly and in good shape there is no reason as long as the air inlets are not blocked that it could not be safe. But there is always a risk when you have a fire inside your house. We do everything possible to reduce that risk but there is always some risk that is why we have insurance. And as a pro i do everything possible to make sure if something happens there is nothing there to cause a problem with an insurance claim. And this will cause a problem for someone if there ever is a claim.

 

[mosquito]

Ok i did not realize that this had been talked about so many times before. I have done a lot of reading the last 3 days. I called 5 "shops" today all with 2 hours to feel them out. They all said yes its possible to put a insert into a prefab/zc fireplace. I think whether or not people want to admit it this is a very common install. If it was unsafe we would know by now. Also i called my insurance company. My rep. Said that as long as it was installed by a professional there was no problem. Also sense i already had a wood burning insert that he would not even need to come out. I was good.

 

[bholler]

Ok i did not realize that this had been talked about so many times before. I have done a lot of reading the last 3 days. I called 5 "shops" today all with 2 hours to feel them out. They all said yes its possible to put a insert into a prefab/zc fireplace. I think whether or not people want to admit it this is a very common install. If it was unsafe we would know by now. Also i called my insurance company. My rep. Said that as long as it was installed by a professional there was no problem. Also sense i already had a wood burning insert that he would not even need to come out. I was good.

As long as your insurance is ok with it after you showed them that passage from the instruction manual then you are ok. I know in some areas it is a common practice but slammers are still common in some areas that still doesn't make it ok. But like i said before as long as you have it installed by an insured pro the liability does not fall on your shoulders. Or that of your insurance company which is why many require pro installs.

 

[bholler]

re you saying that a professional organization like HPBA also feels this way?

I have to admit i have no idea what hpba's stance on it is but csia ncsg nfi and 2 of the other smaller certification organizations all recommend against doing it.