Another Vermont Castings Dauntless Problematic Stove

[j.boyles]

Hey folks! I had a new Vermont Castings Dauntless stove with the catalyst installed mid-October. This is my first wood stove, so at first assumed some of the issues I was having were operator error, but have gotten to the point where I basically can't use the stove anymore. The service department at the dealer I purchased from was booked out pretty far, so they won't be here until next week.

We had a chimney liner installed in our chimney, and our draft is excellent. Here are some of the problems we have experienced so far:

• Backpuffing with catalyst engaged
• Over-firing catalyst
• Smoke pouring out of the griddle when we open to reload
• Smoke pouring out of the front door when we reload
• Constant smoke smell in the house with damper closed (with and without the catalyst)
• Recently, smoke smell in the house with damper opened.
• Glass turns black almost immediately and doesn't burn away

At this point, the stove is essentially unusable. After reading all of the issues people have with the Dauntless specifically, I assume we will end up trying to get it replaced. Our chimney sweep told me that he's seen several swapped out in our area already and nothing but issues. We are burning kiln-dried wood after having an issue the first week with wood that wasn't dry enough.

Not sure what the service folks can even do to try and "fix" the brand new stove. It's just really frustrating and I've got two people in the house with asthma that have not had a good time since buying this stove.

What should I be aware of when they come to work on it? Thanks!

 

[Kevin Weis]

Make sure your wood has a MC <20%. A must is a 3" bed of coals prior to adding any sizable splits. The cat really can't be engaged until the splits are burning well on the coal bed. Sounds like your would is mostly smouldering. Also flue may not be heated well before closing the damper. Be sure to read the operation instructions carefully. They must be followed to a tee. Any deviation and you will struggle. The stove has draft parameters. Usually listed in the installation manual. A good draft would be around 0.06 inches water weight

 

[j.boyles]

Make sure your wood has a MC <20%. A must is a 3" bed of coals prior to adding any sizable splits. The cat really can't be engaged until the splits are burning well on the coal bed. Sounds like your would is mostly smouldering. Also flue may not be heated well before closing the damper. Be sure to read the operation instructions carefully. They must be followed to a tee. Any deviation and you will struggle. The stove has draft parameters. Usually listed in the installation manual. A good draft would be around 0.06 inches water weight

Thanks for the reply Kevin. We've been through the gamut with everything you mention and are following the manual exactly. Here is some additional info:

• Using kiln-dried wood with a MC between 10-15%
• Flue probe thermometer ~18" above stove surface
• Auber AT100 probe thermometer for the Cat
• I know the service guys will do a more exacting draft measurement, but if you light some paper at the pipe with the stove disconnected, the draw is very strong and sucks everything in no problem

When we are seeing the smoke come out of the top or front of the stove, it is at nearly any point in the burning process. One or two hours after a real good burn, still smoke comes out. The wood isn't smoldering at all. With the flue probe thermometer, we know when to engage the catalyst, and the AT100 helps us know what is happening when it is engaged.

The biggest issue right now is that the air gets extremely smelly like smoke. Even if we do not open anything for hours, there is a persistent and growing stink in the house. It sets off our air quality sensors and kicks the HEPA filters into max. Especially when the catalyst is engaged.

There seems to be a defect with our stove.

 

[bholler]

Make sure your wood has a MC <20%. A must is a 3" bed of coals prior to adding any sizable splits. The cat really can't be engaged until the splits are burning well on the coal bed. Sounds like your would is mostly smouldering. Also flue may not be heated well before closing the damper. Be sure to read the operation instructions carefully. They must be followed to a tee. Any deviation and you will struggle. The stove has draft parameters. Usually listed in the installation manual. A good draft would be around 0.06 inches water weight

I absolutely would not use a stove in my home if it took that much effort.

Yes good wood and proper draft but a 3" coal bed is needed for it to work? Really

 

[stoveliker]

10-15 pct, measured how?
If you did not let a (big) split get up to room temperature, then resplit it, and measure it on the freshly exposed inside to get you the internal moisture content rather than that of the dried out outer layer, then the measurement does not tell you what you need to know.

Most kiln dried wood is dried to kill bugs, but is not dried to get the inside below 20 pct.

Have you tried a bunch of 2x4 cut offs (those are dry, so stay with the stove to ensure it doesn't run away)?

 

[Kevin Weis]

I absolutely would not use a stove in my home if it took that much effort.

Yes good wood and proper draft but a 3" coal bed is needed for it to work? Really

3" coal bed is per the manual. IMO 2" suffices if it's closer to the refractory.

 

[Kevin Weis]

IMO that coal bed requirement is how they get the secondaries going to meet EPA requirements without using the cat which is actually an option for the flexburns, in part a reason for the instance on maintaining a sizable coalbed stressed throughout the manual. Sure is micromanagement in burning the stove. That's a big part of the frustration with the VC stoves I believe. Again IMO.

 

[j.boyles]

10-15 pct, measured how?
If you did not let a (big) split get up to room temperature, then resplit it, and measure it on the freshly exposed inside to get you the internal moisture content rather than that of the dried out outer layer, then the measurement does not tell you what you need to know.

Most kiln dried wood is dried to kill bugs, but is not dried to get the inside below 20 pct.

Have you tried a bunch of 2x4 cut offs (those are dry, so stay with the stove to ensure it doesn't run away)?

This wood was dried throughout. I've got two moisture meters and they are both registering that moisture level on a freshly split log that has been indoors, so no issues there.

 

[j.boyles]

I think I haven't really communicated the issue very well. At no point in a burn can I open a door without smoke coming out of the stove. This is the case even with mostly a large bed of coals and some flame. If I open the griddle top, some amount of smoke or dirty exhaust will come out. My friend locally has an older Intrepid, and is able to leave his griddle open, go get wood, come back to load it up and not even a smell is present.

On top of that, there is an overwhelming smoke smell in the house even with it being several hours since I last opened the stove. This is not normal.

 

[stoveliker]

You say you have excellent draft. However, backpuffing is often (not always) the result of poor draft and/or wet wood. The latter is not the case here.

Can you describe the flue system? How much stove pipe, any elbows, any horizontal runs, how tall from stove top to chimney cap, is it class A outside or masonry inside or outside, etc.?

I understand (no experience myself) that these stoves can be finicky, but the amount of smoke issues you describe does seem more than I would ascribe to "finicky".

Wood is ruled out. Next is chimney.

Also: does the smoke roll out when opening NOT happen if you crack a window in the stove room?
Do you have any appliances pushing out air (bathroom fan, range hood, boilers (!))? If smoke comes out, it is not pushed enough into the stove and up the chimney by the pressure in the room. That may be because the chimney pushes back too hard (insufficient draft) or because the pressure in the room is too low (fans).

 

[j.boyles]

Double wall pipe directly up out of the stove about 3' to a 90 degree elbow, about 3' horizontal run to the chimney liner that is inside of our masonry chimney. The chimney is within the center of the house. The liner is about 22' from the thimble to the exit at the top of the chimney.

Back puffing has only occurred a few times after turning the airflow way down for the night with the catalyst engaged.

From my perspective this is far beyond finicky and depending on what the service guys say next week, I might ask for a totally different stove. Even without the issues that smoky air comes out when reloading the stove, I shouldn't be getting incredibly bad air quality and a putrid smoke smell hours after the last time the stove was opened.

 

[newguyjoe]

i am on my 3rd heating season with my Dauntless and ive experienced all the same crap with this stove. i would NEVER recommend someone get one.ever. smoke Def comes out of the griddle when you open it, i have stopped using it and open the door to load wood in. i bought the cat this year and took it out as my stove was uncontrol able with it in, plus smoke out of the sack with it in.. i believe i had an air leak on both door windows so i might try it again- i fixed it. the design of the "downdraft" is stupid,had i know that when i went to the dealer i prob wouldnt have gotten it. good luck,i hope you can get rid of it.

 

[stoveliker]

Double wall pipe directly up out of the stove about 3' to a 90 degree elbow, about 3' horizontal run to the chimney liner that is inside of our masonry chimney. The chimney is within the center of the house. The liner is about 22' from the thimble to the exit at the top of the chimney.

Back puffing has only occurred a few times after turning the airflow way down for the night with the catalyst engaged.

From my perspective this is far beyond finicky and depending on what the service guys say next week, I might ask for a totally different stove. Even without the issues that smoky air comes out when reloading the stove, I shouldn't be getting incredibly bad air quality and a putrid smoke smell hours after the last time the stove was opened.

What is the diameter of the chimney (if stainless lined), and what is the surface area of the clay liner if not lined with a stainless liner?

Elbows and horizontal runs effectively shorten the chimmney (they decrease draft to the equivalent of a shorter straight up chimney).

If I go by the recommendations of my manufacturer (and doing that is somewhat justified as that physics is not dependent on the model stove), your effective height is 22 ft - 4 ft (b/c the elbows) - 6 ft (b/c the horizontal run) = 12 ft.
[Justification: for every 90 deg elbow, my mfg recommends to add 2 ft to the minimum height, and for every ft of horizontal run to add 2 ft as well.]

That is likely lower than what your stove recommends (most are 15 ft).

If in addition to that it's a clay liner with a rectangular cross section larger than 28 square inches (=the cross section of a 6" round liner), your draft will be further reduced because of the slower gas flow speed due to the larger volume, cooling the gases down more, decreasing the draft.

If you are also at elevation, subtract 1 ft more for each 1000 ft that is above 1000 ft above sea level.
[My mfg: add 1 ft for 1000-2000 ft above sea level, 2 ft for 2000-3000 ft etc.]

My conclusion is that you have insufficient draft.
To test that you could see if you could add a cheap duct extension on the top of your chimney outside (I'd add a minimum of 4 ft). If that resolves things, then you could see how to do that properly (ducting is of course not safe for permanent use).

@bholler will correct me if he thinks I'm wrong.

 

[j.boyles]

What is the diameter of the chimney (if stainless lined), and what is the surface area of the clay liner if not lined with a stainless liner?

Elbows and horizontal runs effectively shorten the chimmney (they decrease draft to the equivalent of a shorter straight up chimney).

If I go by the recommendations of my manufacturer (and doing that is somewhat justified as that physics is not dependent on the model stove), your effective height is 22 ft - 4 ft (b/c the elbows) - 6 ft (b/c the horizontal run) = 12 ft.
[Justification: for every 90 deg elbow, my mfg recommends to add 2 ft to the minimum height, and for every ft of horizontal run to add 2 ft as well.]

That is likely lower than what your stove recommends (most are 15 ft).

If in addition to that it's a clay liner with a rectangular cross section larger than 28 square inches (=the cross section of a 6" round liner), your draft will be further reduced because of the slower gas flow speed due to the larger volume, cooling the gases down more, decreasing the draft.

If you are also at elevation, subtract 1 ft more for each 1000 ft that is above 1000 ft above sea level.
[My mfg: add 1 ft for 1000-2000 ft above sea level, 2 ft for 2000-3000 ft etc.]

My conclusion is that you have insufficient draft.
To test that you could see if you could add a cheap duct extension on the top of your chimney outside (I'd add a minimum of 4 ft). If that resolves things, then you could see how to do that properly (ducting is of course not safe for permanent use).

@bholler will correct me if he thinks I'm wrong.

I'd be interested to know where you are getting those calculations from. The only thing the VC installation manual mentions is 15 ft tall chimney and max of two 90s.

I have a 6" stainless liner.

 

[stoveliker]

6" stainless liner: good. Another variable taken out of the picture.

From my manual. Again, that's my mfg but the physics does not change.
In the end it is draft that matters (as measured in e.g. height of water column) - that is the determining factor. What is in my manual is guidance based on experience matched with draft measurements for those who don't have draft data.

I could go into the buoyancy in the chimney (which is what drives the draft, and thus the stove), but it would involve assumptions that also include the weather and airflow around your home. If the installer comes to measure, that's best. If no measurement is present, I'd go by the minimum height as adjusted for draft-reducing componentsn as below.

 

[stoveliker]

(Now I hope BK won't start arguing copyright )

 

[j.boyles]

6" stainless liner: good. Another variable taken out of the picture.

From my manual. Again, that's my mfg but the physics does not change.
In the end it is draft that matters (as measured in e.g. height of water column) - that is the determining factor. What is in my manual is guidance based on experience matched with draft measurements for those who don't have draft data.

I could go into the buoyancy in the chimney (which is what drives the draft, and thus the stove), but it would involve assumptions that also include the weather and airflow around your home. If the installer comes to measure, that's best. If no measurement is present, I'd go by the minimum height as adjusted for draft-reducing componentsn as below.

View attachment 304891

Quick update here:

I properly measured the liner height, and we have 28 feet from the top of the stove to the rain cap. Even with those reductions, that puts us at 20 feet of effective liner height. There is SOMETHING wrong with this stove. Period.

 

[stoveliker]

I agree then that the chimney height seems sufficient.
The cap is the highest point (no higher stories next to it), I presume?

Though, however bad the design may (or may not) be (and it certainly does not seem to be the best design out there), it appears to me that you see more issues than the average. Hence a focus on the install.

But with wood okay, chimney not clearly wrong and likely okay, I'm out of ideas.
Sorry. I hope others with more knowledge (of the stove itself?) will comment.
@begreen ?

 

[j.boyles]

I agree then that the chimney height seems sufficient.
The cap is the highest point (no higher stories next to it), I presume?

Though, however bad the design may (or may not) be (and it certainly does not seem to be the best design out there), it appears to me that you see more issues than the average. Hence a focus on the install.

But with wood okay, chimney not clearly wrong and likely okay, I'm out of ideas.
Sorry. I hope others with more knowledge (of the stove itself?) will comment.
@begreen ?

Yea cap is the highest point. Nothing within a 20' or so radius.

Service will be here Tuesday, so hopefully the will be able to figure out what is going on!

 

[stoveliker]

I hope for the best.

 

[Kevin Weis]

The damper is being opened up prior to opening the doors right? If it isn't smoke would pour out no matter the draft. Just saying, it wasn't mentioned above I don’t think.

 

[j.boyles]

The damper is being opened up prior to opening the doors right? If it isn't smoke would pour out no matter the draft. Just saying, it wasn't mentioned above I don’t think.

Yes, absolutely. It almost behaves as though the damper is closed when we open the griddle, but you can obviously see that the damper is open.

 

[Kevin Weis]

Yes, absolutely. It almost behaves as though the damper is closed when we open the griddle, but you can obviously see that the damper is open.

Okay, almost seems like there's a blockage somewhere. Maybe still an issue with the chimney? Just thinking out loud.

 

[ReverendGreen]

Yes, absolutely. It almost behaves as though the damper is closed when we open the griddle, but you can obviously see that the damper is open.

Would you be willing to provide an update when your tech comes back out to inspect? I am considering a Dauntless among a few others and am following this thread. Hope they get it figured out for you.

 

[JeanneM]

I am sorry you are having so much trouble. My Dauntless was installed in August - started using it off and on in October - now using it most days - but not all night long. I got the stove as emergency backup and to keep me warm as we keep our furnace turned down more than is comfortable.

I am not having the problems you are. The only time I get smoke out the door or top is if I forget to disengage the cat before opening the top - a lesson I learned early. My biggest problem is my own - lack of kindling. Since I don't have kindling I find the smallest split I can and start with that with Fatwood fire starters and once that one is going I add another smallish split and that will make a pretty good coal bed. My husband does this better than I do. On occasion that first split just smolders - probably too wet. I'm burning ash and the ash trees here have been dying bit by bit so possibly some of my splits are better seasoned then others. My fire is dying down right now - glass is clear and box is whiteish. I'm considering getting a piece of lumber and slicing it into pieces with my miter saw to make some kindling - any recommendations on whether this is a good idea or not and what lumber?

Once the coal bed is established I just drop in a log or two as needed to keep the temp in a good range. My neighbor supplies my wood. I showed him my stove after he dropped off the last load and he said next time he would bring me smaller splits - I think he had the experience to know the size of the stove would need smaller splits to start it up. In the morning I empty the ash tray and give the glass a quick wipe down - all set for later in the day.

There is that time required to get the coal bed established which many find a pain - which would be easier if I had kindling as the instruction indicate.