Another Vermont Castings Dauntless Problematic Stove

[stoveliker]

I would like to (attempt to) clarify something that may be not clear. (Apologies if it was clear.)

The fact that the same wood works in the other stove does not mean "it's good", it means "it's good enough for that other stove with that other chimney".
Whether something works in a particular set up depends on what that stove needs in terms of both wood and chimney. Since the stove is different (finicky, needing more draft to function) , the chimney is too (shorter, less draft), the wood quality might just be near the borderline for this set up.

Skirting around the edge of the needed wood quality (moisture content) can then easily lead to problems - as indeed seen in the weather dependence of the performance.

The chimney suitability remarks (short +bends) stand.
The wood concerns allow you to provide a big "told you so" finger to the criticism here IF you would take the time to prove it wrong. How? Buy a moisture meter. Bring a few splits into the home, let them get up to temperature for 24 hrs. THEN resplit them and measure with the pins deep in the wood and along the grain in the center of the freshly exposed surface. If the number is good (<20%), you have a great "told you so" on your hands. If not, then the suggestions provided above regarding both wood and chimney stand.
The reason for doing it this way is that the wood dries from the outside in, so the outside will be drier than the inside of the wood.


Regarding "should work without the cat" - sure, it'll burn. But it will only work if you burn hot. The point of the cat is that you expand the (burn rate) range with which you can burn in a stable (and clean) fashion. The expansion is to the lower end of the burn rate range the stove can provide. SO without the cat you can burn, but you can't burn as low. Yet the stove offers the capability to choke it down a lot - but that should only be done with a cat installed.

I hope this is helpful. Again, apologies if you were aware of all this.
I do concur with the remarks about the attitude - after all it appears you're asking for help. If my kids respond to me with an attitude after they ask for help, then I tell them that they should make it easy for them to be helped, that they should make the person helping them not feel bad *even if the helper is stoopid*. Asking for help means being ready to receive help, and consider the insight you were asking for in the first place.

I do wish you the best, as a stove that performs poorly is frustrating indeed.

That's my $0.02

 

[glensimpson]

I read through your responses and all I can think of is that I sense your frustration but man are you a prick. I really don't want to see you succeed now. Your condescending attitude may have served you well in your life, but obviously right now you are stuck and your pros aren't helping you much. Several people here (including real pros) handed you a paddle and all you've done is tossed it overboard. You are unwilling to look at draft, wood moisture, or anything else as a root cause other than blaming the stove. The stove is challenging, and had I know I would have picked something else, but either take on the challenge and learn to use it within the confines of its capabilities or move on from it. If you have a draft issue or wood issue, you'll have the same problem with another stove most likely. So good luck and good health to you.

WHen there are oodles of people who think this stove is junk and they are burning bone dry wood , yet "really smart people are trying to help..." You kinda come across as someone who unknowingly gets into a bunch of projection...... when the majority of consumers aren't please with this stove, you remain staunch in your denial of it's faulty design. Thanks Grumpy, there's something to a name, simple genius.

 

[glensimpson]

I would like to (attempt to) clarify something that may be not clear. (Apologies if it was clear.)

The fact that the same wood works in the other stove does not mean "it's good", it means "it's good enough for that other stove with that other chimney".
Whether something works in a particular set up depends on what that stove needs in terms of both wood and chimney. Since the stove is different (finicky, needing more draft to function) , the chimney is too (shorter, less draft), the wood quality might just be near the borderline for this set up.

Skirting around the edge of the needed wood quality (moisture content) can then easily lead to problems - as indeed seen in the weather dependence of the performance.

The chimney suitability remarks (short +bends) stand.
The wood concerns allow you to provide a big "told you so" finger to the criticism here IF you would take the time to prove it wrong. How? Buy a moisture meter. Bring a few splits into the home, let them get up to temperature for 24 hrs. THEN resplit them and measure with the pins deep in the wood and along the grain in the center of the freshly exposed surface. If the number is good (<20%), you have a great "told you so" on your hands. If not, then the suggestions provided above regarding both wood and chimney stand.
The reason for doing it this way is that the wood dries from the outside in, so the outside will be drier than the inside of the wood.


Regarding "should work without the cat" - sure, it'll burn. But it will only work if you burn hot. The point of the cat is that you expand the (burn rate) range with which you can burn in a stable (and clean) fashion. The expansion is to the lower end of the burn rate range the stove can provide. SO without the cat you can burn, but you can't burn as low. Yet the stove offers the capability to choke it down a lot - but that should only be done with a cat installed.

I hope this is helpful. Again, apologies if you were aware of all this.
I do concur with the remarks about the attitude - after all it appears you're asking for help. If my kids respond to me with an attitude after they ask for help, then I tell them that they should make it easy for them to be helped, that they should make the person helping them not feel bad *even if the helper is stoopid*. Asking for help means being ready to receive help, and consider the insight you were asking for in the first place.

I do wish you the best, as a stove that performs poorly is frustrating indeed.

That's my $0.02

"Yet the stove offers the capability to choke it down a lot - but that should only be done with a cat installed." No information in the sales process, what so ever... and how the heck do they expect folks to run it in moderate temps without the cat, if this is the case...... so to not tell them they need the cat, yet know the consumer needs it for such a range of function...... well, it;s just wrong, bordering on fraud.

 

[glensimpson]

I would like to (attempt to) clarify something that may be not clear. (Apologies if it was clear.)

The fact that the same wood works in the other stove does not mean "it's good", it means "it's good enough for that other stove with that other chimney".
Whether something works in a particular set up depends on what that stove needs in terms of both wood and chimney. Since the stove is different (finicky, needing more draft to function) , the chimney is too (shorter, less draft), the wood quality might just be near the borderline for this set up.

Skirting around the edge of the needed wood quality (moisture content) can then easily lead to problems - as indeed seen in the weather dependence of the performance.

The chimney suitability remarks (short +bends) stand.
The wood concerns allow you to provide a big "told you so" finger to the criticism here IF you would take the time to prove it wrong. How? Buy a moisture meter. Bring a few splits into the home, let them get up to temperature for 24 hrs. THEN resplit them and measure with the pins deep in the wood and along the grain in the center of the freshly exposed surface. If the number is good (<20%), you have a great "told you so" on your hands. If not, then the suggestions provided above regarding both wood and chimney stand.
The reason for doing it this way is that the wood dries from the outside in, so the outside will be drier than the inside of the wood.


Regarding "should work without the cat" - sure, it'll burn. But it will only work if you burn hot. The point of the cat is that you expand the (burn rate) range with which you can burn in a stable (and clean) fashion. The expansion is to the lower end of the burn rate range the stove can provide. SO without the cat you can burn, but you can't burn as low. Yet the stove offers the capability to choke it down a lot - but that should only be done with a cat installed.

I hope this is helpful. Again, apologies if you were aware of all this.
I do concur with the remarks about the attitude - after all it appears you're asking for help. If my kids respond to me with an attitude after they ask for help, then I tell them that they should make it easy for them to be helped, that they should make the person helping them not feel bad *even if the helper is stoopid*. Asking for help means being ready to receive help, and consider the insight you were asking for in the first place.

I do wish you the best, as a stove that performs poorly is frustrating indeed.

That's my $0.02

I really don't understand your reasoning, other than liking to hear yourself write, maybe. When it has been established over a 5 year period that the Jotul downstairs does not work well with improperly cured wood, and you put wood in there that does not work upstairs in the dauntless, yet works really, really well downstairs in the Jotul, you, in fact, can conclude that the wood you are using is sufficiently dried. SOrry man, grumpy grandpa started slinging around self validating stuff like "smart people are trying to help you"... seemingly struggling to accept that my wood is bone dry and this stove stinks. And yeah, over time, other will surface that support my point of view, which got construed incorrectly by self defensive ones.

 

[glensimpson]

The fact that it runs ok with colder outside temps tell me you have marginal draft. Lower outside temps increases your draft and makes it work better. Running 6" all the way to the chimney will help some. Not sure if it will be enough though because your still going into an oversized uninsulated chimney. How tall is the chimney?

it's not just if it's colder, it's the weather system.... I had it 15 degrees and snowing and the dauntless will hardly stay going, and 15 degrees with a clear, crisp sky and the thing burns much better.

Odd, all these experts and really smart people, yet nobody has any insight into this phenomena with these new EPA stoves. Same deal with my Jotul downstairs, burns better on a clear night at 15 than snowy. Tell me, you need the Cat to overcome these limitations?

 

[glensimpson]

ps. grumpy, what I did learn here is that running my 6 out to the flu a few more inches might help, maybe. The bends in my stove pipe are related to my chimney height for draw reasons, and I am within the appropriate range for both stoves.. and I knew for years that these new stoves have to have really cured wood, so I have been particular about that, given I have pwned a Jotul for some time (and know a bunch of people with them too). SO when grumpy people harp on wood, I get a really rotten feeling, quick.

 

[glensimpson]

16' with your 45s and the 90 up the oversized chimney is not tall enough. You don't have enough draft.

What size is the flue?

I thought it was 5 feet per turn..... one turn off the stove, one turn at the flu junction....standard rectangular clay flu, I think 8x12...... seems the mason who just put the new chimney in would have insight into these realities of the modern stove market?

 

[Woodsplitter67]

I read through your responses and all I can think of is that I sense your frustration but man are you a prick. I really don't want to see you succeed now. Your condescending attitude may have served you well in your life, but obviously right now you are stuck and your pros aren't helping you much. Several people here (including real pros) handed you a paddle and all you've done is tossed it overboard. You are unwilling to look at draft, wood moisture, or anything else as a root cause other than blaming the stove. The stove is challenging, and had I know I would have picked something else, but either take on the challenge and learn to use it within the confines of its capabilities or move on from it. If you have a draft issue or wood issue, you'll have the same problem with another stove most likely. So good luck and good health to you.

Thank you for this post.. another quality post by GD

 

[stoveliker]

I really don't understand your reasoning, other than liking to hear yourself write, maybe.

Well, i really don't understand you either.
I believe I wrote one post - edit, I wrote more, but only one voluminous one, for the reason as given in that post: to aim to clarify something that is behind the frustrating debate here - , and you put me down based on trying to clarify something.

Frankly, how dare you. You may have more years than I have, but I can tell you that my (teenage!) kids are better behaved than what happened here.

I will try it one last time.

The limit of when wood is dry enough is NOT the same for different systems. I.e. a Jotul on a tall chimney might do fine with wood that will not do fine in a VC on a shorter chimney.
That is what I tried to say.

And, the fact that sometimes (weather) it works, and sometimes it doesn't, suggests to me that you're operating with a system that is right at the border of its normal operating parameters.

Beyond that, given the remark above, you're unwilling to consider the advice YOU solicited. So I wish you a lot of smoke in your home. Evidently the resulting grumbling is what you prefer over considering and trying (rather than just dismissing) the advice YOU solicited.

I'm signing off from this thread.

 

[bholler]

I thought it was 5 feet per turn..... one turn off the stove, one turn at the flu junction....standard rectangular clay flu, I think 8x12...... seems the mason who just put the new chimney in would have insight into these realities of the modern stove market?

Ok so your stoves outlet is 28.27 sq/in. Your dumping it into a 16' tall chimney that is 77 sq/in. That is your problem. It doesn't look like you meet any of the chimney requirements in the manual once you subtract for the elbows.

Did your mason know what stoves were being installed in the chimney you asked him to build? Did he have the manual for those stoves?

Who installed the stove? Did they read the manual and follow the chimney requirements?

Again none of us are saying that there are not issues with this stove. There absolutely are but your install is far from meeting the installation specs. You simply don't have enough draft.

 

[Woodsplitter67]

The guy who installed the chimney " works on million dollar homes".. that was what the requirement was.. thats the installers qualifications..

The wood is dry also.. as a matter of fact.. its so dry that when it sits by the stove it loses weight.. it must have been like 5% when brought in to the house.. then it lost another 10% sitting next to the stove making it a -5%MC.. thats how dry that wood is..

 

[GrumpyDad]

The guy who installed the chimney " works on million dollar homes".. that was what the requirement was.. thats the installers qualifications..

The wood is dry also.. as a matter of fact.. its so dry that when it sits by the stove it loses weight.. it must have been like 5% when brought in to the house.. then it lost another 10% sitting next to the stove making it a -5%MC.. thats how dry that wood is..

I really want to take the high ground here, but I had to laugh at this message and that of which @stoveliker posted trying to keep composure. It's at the point though that if someone told me dude was trolling me I would believe it. I mean, I'm the biggest anti Dauntless cat/non cat idiot there is on these forums, but I may have been dethroned.

 

[Woodsplitter67]

I really want to take the high ground here, but I had to laugh at this message and that of which @stoveliker posted trying to keep composure. It's at the point though that if someone told me dude was trolling me I would believe it. I mean, I'm the biggest anti Dauntless cat/non cat idiot there is on these forums, but I may have been dethroned.

I really do try to inject some humor here and there... Sometimes people dont get it.. but thats ok..

Im thinking @bholler is probably on his 4th keyboard.. just on this thread alone..