Another woodstove recommendation.

[mgh-pa]

So, I've posted this diagram before, but now there have been some modifications, so let me explain first:

I live in a tri-level home built in 1979 (2100 sq.ft). The mid/main level (kitchen/dining room/living room) is 840 sq. ft with a a partial basement (640 sq ft.) underneath where the woodstove is. Since I made the diagram above, we are in the process of putting in stairs into the basement directly inline with the stairs you see on the diagram that lead to the upper level (bedrooms/bathroom). We have a vent directly about the stove, and the cold air returns labeled are no longer in use (the crawl space they dropped into is now sealed off with drywall and R11 on the one side of the stairs). The stove is an old Shenendoah, and with the stairs cut in, AND an EdenPure running on the main floor, I can keep the temps at 70-72 degrees (much better than before the stairs were in) unless the temps drop into the single digits.

So far, compared to last year, we're averaging almost 20KWH per day less during December and January with this current setup. Granted, our electricity was deregulated last year, and rates went up (I'm currently paying $.095/KWH). During December, our average temp was 40, compared to 45 in 2009, and this year we used 1781KWH. During January, our average temp was 27 (With a few days in the low single digits), and we used 1141kwh (remember, this was the first month with the stairs in place).

I'm still not happy that I have to run an edenpure to keep temps truly comfortable, so I'm wondering what's next. Am I better off buying a new, high efficiency stove rated for let's say 3000 sq ft, and HOPE that it does the trick (where the stove is now, the majority of the chimney is on the exterior of the house (it's a stainless line), or I'm also considering a ductless heat pump for the main floor to supplement. All I need to do is keep the main floor at 70 close to 24/7 as possible.

The way I look at it, the ductless system costs a lot more initially, but will add to the resale of my house (right now, it's just baseboard, the woodstove, and the gas fireplace on the lower third level family room). It will also cut down on my initial wood needs (wood is free as my parents own 90acres 1.5 miles away), but I really think I've been under supplying myself with wood (I really think I need about 6-8 cords to burn as heavy as I will need to keep the temps where I want it), and the ductless system would lower the pressure of me needing to get all of the cords cut and ready each heating season.

I'm at a crossroads at this point, and I'm not sure really what to do. Thoughts?

 

[SolarAndWood]

Cut more wood sooner.

 

[bogydave]

May be some help if you elect to shop for a new stove
http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/astronomy.html?n=18

I never heard anyone complain about "having too much dry, ready to burn fire wood"

I have a tri=level, but the tall crawl space was 8', so I made it an unfinished basement & put the stove there.
Just added 12" of attic insulation, & new "e" rated patio door
few years ago new windows, tyvec wrapped & vinyl siding & high efficient gas furnace.
Last winter new wood stove,
It all helped & done over time was doable on a budget.

Now furnace don't run except spring & fall.

Upgrade as you can, slowly. Buy efficient appliances/upgrades when you do. Then they pay you back every year after.

 

[jimbom]

I agree with Dave in Alaska. I thought I was pretty smart when I built this place, but a couple three years ago I got a cheap IR thermostat. I have some envelope oversights which I work at to correct. The more you know.

If your split system is to run in the spring/fall, it will be more cost effective. If it is to cover the time when you are in single digits, the cost effectiveness will not be as good. Hopefully the split system data will list the performance vs outdoor temperature. If not, I would ask for that information.

 

[mgh-pa]

Thanks, guys. Even if I do install a ductless system, I plan to keep my stove in the basement. In fact, I plan to move it to my barn/workshop, and replace it with another stove. The ductless would be supplemental heat, plus add AC in the summer (although we really don't need much with the air circulation we have).

I need a woodstove in my barn by next year, and although it will only be burned occasionally when I'm working in there, my wood supply needs will increase. I figure I would need about 8 cords between my house and barn if I go solely with wood heat (I would be investing in a GOOD stove if this is the route I would take), but even then, I'm not sure if it will be enough to heat to the the temps I want without supplementing with the EdenPure.

With a ductless system, I wouldn't need near as much wood, I could place the current stove in the barn, and get a decent mid range stove for downstairs. The initial costs of this would still be much more than just upgrading to a good $2K range wood stove, however.

See why I'm a little "stuck?"

 

[PapaDave]

Really depends how you want to spend your time keeping the house warm.
You have to go to work to pay for the electricity and gas, or go into the woods for your firewood.
Do you plan to move soon?
Newer, correctly sized stoves are more efficient, and will probably save on wood needs.
Maybe a second stove in the living room?

 

[mgh-pa]

Really depends how you want to spend your time keeping the house warm.
You have to go to work to pay for the electricity and gas, or go into the woods for your firewood.
Do you plan to move soon?
Newer, correctly sized stoves are more efficient, and will probably save on wood needs.
Maybe a second stove in the living room?

I may move in 5 years, maybe 10, but it's still not set in stone. I'm keeping my eye on land, and when the right piece becomes available, if it ever becomes available, I'll jump on it. My only thoughts on including the ductless unit into the mix is not having to cut near as much wood to burn full time in the house and part time in the shop. That and resale of the home are really the only two driving forces behind me considering this.

 

[dave11]

As far as resale value goes, you should assume that most potential buyers are not going to be as willing as you to put in the work required to heat with wood. You might be lucky and such a buyer comes along, but since they are going to be few at best, on average it will lower the resale value of the house, if wood is required to provide much/most of its heat. That's doubly true if the house already has natural gas, as yours does, since I assume most other houses in your area have NG as well?

Also, most buyers aren't going to have access to your parents' free wood.

From purely a resale viewpoint, it'd be best to be able to point to a heating system that does not require wood. Ambiance only.

 

[mgh-pa]

As far as resale value goes, you should assume that most potential buyers are not going to be as willing as you to put in the work required to heat with wood. You might be lucky and such a buyer comes along, but since they are going to be few at best, on average it will lower the resale value of the house, if wood is required to provide much/most of its heat. That's doubly true if the house already has natural gas, as yours does, since I assume most other houses in your area have NG as well?

Also, most buyers aren't going to have access to your parents' free wood.

From purely a resale viewpoint, it'd be best to be able to point to a heating system that does not require wood. Ambiance only.

That's what I'm thinking.

Just a small clarification. I have a propane fireplace, not NG. There is no NG availability where we live.

 

[mgh-pa]

Alright, guys, I thought I would bring this post I made back to life. As we approach the upcoming heating season, I'm still as unsure as when I made this post last March. I really can't decide between upgrading my current stove or going with a good high end ductless unit. I was looking at the Daikan brand units that can still produce heat below 0, and the fact that so many people rave about Daikan efficiency, but we don't have any local dealers. I'm not even positive given the floor plan layout that I would even be able to effectively heat much of the house with a wood stove given its location, and I would hate to find that out after dropping $2500+ on a good stove. On the other hand, at ~$4000 for a ductless system, it will take a while to make that break even point. Thoughts?

 

[KevinG]

Use searchtempest.com to look on craigslist for a larger EPA wood stove like the Englander NC30 or similar sized stove.

Or order one for $1,099 from http://www.overstockstoves.com/50nowomo2sqf.html. If it doesn't work out, you can probably get $700 for it on CL in a year.

I wouldn't worry about the outside metal chimney long as its Class A or HT. Many people here, myself included, use one with no problem.

And start cutting wood. If it's oak, you should let it season at least one year and I've heard two is better.

 

[Stump_Branch]

You can always take the stove with you. Be a hard sell to take the heat pump. You came to a stove forum for answers, we tend to be biased toward such. However its good advice. The cost, all the side benefits, outway alot of other options. I upgraded stoves. Now before i move ill upgrade the oil burner, but that will still cost me in oil, so far woods free, as i read for you as well. While a stove costs less initally, long short / long term. Your still going to pay for elec. Wood is just some time and sweat equity.

Id buy an englander 30 and get cutting. Besides there arent any sites i know of where you get to talk about how cool the heat pump is!

 

[mgh-pa]

Thanks. Do you think and Englender 30 would be enough stove? The way my house is layed out I almost wonder if I need something a little larger. I have about 6 cords cut and ready to go and I would move my current stove to the barn.My only concern would be resale but I think it's a minor concern in the grand scheme of things.

 

[BrowningBAR]

Thanks. Do you think and Englender 30 would be enough stove? The way my house is layed out I almost wonder if I need something a little larger. I have about 6 cords cut and ready to go and I would move my current stove to the barn.My only concern would be resale but I think it's a minor concern in the grand scheme of things.

Your climate is a little colder than mine, so, what would I do if I was forced to do a basement install with your layout and square footage? I'd go with the big Buck stove Model 94. It has a 4.4 cu ft fire box and rated for up to 3200 sq ft. Could it be overkill? Maybe. But I'm not a fan of basement installs. I'd rather have too much stove than not enough. It also doesn't seem like you spend much time in the basement. So, having a really hot basement wouldn't create a problem.

 

[mgh-pa]

It would be a great deal of work to get a stove hooked in on the main floor not to mention I'm not a fan of lugging the wood through the basement up my finished hardwood floors and across my hardwood floor kitchen. It's more mess than it's worth. I'm not sure why a basement install is so despised on these forums. 100% of the homes of people I know around here who have woodstoves have them in the basement as did ours growing up (and our house was TOASTY).

However, if it's not practical, and it the general consensus is that my house (upstairs bedrooms AND kitchen can't be kept at a constant 65+ and 72+ respectively, I'll just put a heat pump in.

 

[BrowningBAR]

It would be a great deal of work to get a stove hooked in on the main floor not to mention I'm not a fan of lugging the wood through the basement up my finished hardwood floors and across my hardwood floor kitchen. It's more mess than it's worth. I'm not sure why a basement install is so despised on these forums. 100% of the homes of people I know around here who have woodstoves have them in the basement as did ours growing up (and our house was TOASTY).

However, if it's not practical, and it the general consensus is that my house (upstairs bedrooms AND kitchen can't be kept at a constant 65+ and 72+ respectively, I'll just put a heat pump in.

It's not that it's not possible, it's just a hell of a lot easier putting the stove in the area in which you live. You don't have to burn as hot or over-size as much and you will use less wood. But, there are others that heat from their basement and are happy campers.

But, like I mentioned. Get the big Buck 94. It has a 4.4 cu ft firebox. You should get some long hot burns from it and you should have decent success with it.

 

[mgh-pa]

Thanks, I read up on the Model 94, and it looks like a great stove (big heating range approximation of 1800 to 3200 sq ft, though). Problem is, there are no dealers within 100 miles of here according to their site. I was also looking at the Millennium 4300. It seems to be a hair smaller, but has a little higher efficiency rating, and there is a dealer relatively close by. It seems around 2800 sq ft is the maximum cut off for heating capacity on a lot of the stoves I've been researching. Granted, I'm relatively new to the market of stoves, but are there any with a littler higher ratings (with hopes of overstoving myself to get the heat transfer through the house that I want)? Thanks for all of the help.

 

[BrowningBAR]

Thanks, I read up on the Model 94, and it looks like a great stove (big heating range approximation of 1800 to 3200 sq ft, though). Problem is, there are no dealers within 100 miles of here according to their site. I was also looking at the Millennium 4300. It seems to be a hair smaller, but has a little higher efficiency rating, and there is a dealer relatively close by. It seems around 2800 sq ft is the maximum cut off for heating capacity on a lot of the stoves I've been researching. Granted, I'm relatively new to the market of stoves, but are there any with a littler higher ratings (with hopes of overstoving myself to get the heat transfer through the house that I want)? Thanks for all of the help.

I've spoken with Buck. They claim that the site locator is not up to date. I was told to contact a company by the name of 'Brunk' to see who is the closest dealer in your area. That company distributes the stoves to the resellers... or something like that. Their phone number is 330-332-0359. I have never spoken with this company so I have no idea how helpful they will be.

 

[mgh-pa]

Thanks for the number. I was reading a few things about the Buck 94, and it seems although it's new, there's a few mixed reviews. However, a quick question about the efficiency and burn times, etc. A lot of people seem to like the Englander NC30. That stove has a much lower efficiency rating (63 vs 75 for the buck), the same BTU rating. The buck has an 8" flu, correct? I would need to step it down since I currently am setup for 6". Would the greater firebox size and efficiency of the Buck make it more worthwhile over the Englander even though the latter is much more proven?

 

[pen]

If you are setup with a 6 inch chimney you shouldn't run a modern stove designed for an 8 inch chimney into that 6.

If it weren't for this problem there'd be a BK King sitting in my basement right now.

pen

 

[mgh-pa]

If you are setup with a 6 inch chimney you shouldn't run a modern stove designed for an 8 inch chimney into that 6.

If it weren't for this problem there'd be a BK King sitting in my basement right now.

pen

Thanks, I'm reading some pretty good things about the Englendar, and I'm leaning toward that right now. I think about 2200sq.ft is my cutoff and it seems not many stoves are rated for much higher than that. I just measured my floor layout (the floorplan at the top of this post is a little inaccurate and was what was given to me at the time I bought the home), and I'm right at 1500 sq.ft between the basement and the first main floor. I think the Englendar would do well.

Side question (don't want to start too many threads). I have vents/returns in my floor. Do they make a circulation fan that can attach into the vent to circulate heat much like a blower on a stove?

 

[mgh-pa]

Bump...

 

[begreen]

For a basement stove the first thing to try for circulation is to put a fan at the top of the stairs and point it downward, blowing the cooler upstairs air into the hot basement. This will greatly assist convecting the hot air out of the basement to the 1st floor if the staircase is near the stove and somewhat central to the upstairs floorplan.

 

[mgh-pa]

For a basement stove the first thing to try for circulation is to put a fan at the top of the stairs and point it downward, blowing the cooler upstairs air into the hot basement. This will greatly assist convecting the hot air out of the basement to the 1st floor if the staircase is near the stove and somewhat central to the upstairs floorplan.

Thanks. I've actually been considering going with a convection style stove some now as well (Quadra-Fire 5700 or Napoleon 1900). They have a better sq.ft/btu/efficiency rating than the englender, but much more pricey. I like the idea of possibly getting heat transfer to my WHOLE house besides just the main floor above without having to make the basement a sauna. For sake of not starting a new thread, any recommendations there? Does my floorplan/situation warrant such a consideration, or would it be a waste of an additional $1200 or so more than the Englender?

 

[daleeper]

For a basement stove the first thing to try for circulation is to put a fan at the top of the stairs and point it downward, blowing the cooler upstairs air into the hot basement. This will greatly assist convecting the hot air out of the basement to the 1st floor if the staircase is near the stove and somewhat central to the upstairs floorplan.

Thanks. I've actually been considering going with a convection style stove some now as well (Quadra-Fire 5700 or Napoleon 1900). They have a better sq.ft/btu/efficiency rating than the englender, but much more pricey. I like the idea of possibly getting heat transfer to my WHOLE house besides just the main floor above without having to make the basement a sauna. For sake of not starting a new thread, any recommendations there? Does my floorplan/situation warrant such a consideration, or would it be a waste of an additional $1200 or so more than the Englender?

This is why most will recommend the stove be placed in the space needing heat, as it will not be a sure bet that you can get heat distributed well through the whole house. Maybe a wood furnace would work?

I have a wood stove in the basement, and my previous non-epa stove would cook me out of that space. Upgraded to a newer (not new) stove that is convection style, and it seems to have helped, along with burning drier wood than in the past, I am much happier with the heating system now. I have also placed a couple of small fans in appropriate places and been able to circulate that heat better.

If you are using that space in the basement, then I would recommend that you spend the extra money, (or extra time if looking at used stoves) and get a convection style stove for that space. Then start looking for ways to move that air through the house, but don't expect it to heat your whole house. You might get lucky, but you might also get disappointed.

The ductless system that you mentioned earlier really interests me, but the cost of them really make a person hold off on them. My bil has one in a family room that really works sweet for his situation, but still runs a wood stove in the winter to keep the meter from spinning. Hopefully over time the cost of these units will decrease, and knowledge of them in this area will increase.