Bad installation

[Hanns]

Hello,

Apologies if any of this sounds ignorant. I've never owned/used a wood stove before, but I love the idea as a supplemental heat source as well as backup in the event of prolonged power outage.

My wife and I purchased a house back in March with a 1986 Defiant Encore installed in the great room. It was moved there by the previous owners from a different room, and the company they hired placed it too close to the walls. Our home inspector told us that up front, and it was later confirmed by a chimney place when I had it swept. Therefore, we don't use it as burning down the house would be sub-optimal.

We'd like to save the installation if possible, and I've spoken to a couple of different places: the previously mentioned chimney place, who also sells Jotul and Quadra-Fire stoves, as well as a Vermont Castings dealer. The chimney place told me the only option with this stove is to brick line the wall (though that doesn't really help with the window sill right there).

I had hoped the Vermont Castings place would have some other ideas (Heat shield for the stove? Angled pipe to move it forward?), but after some odd-feeling talks, the guy basically told me they aren't interested in fixing someone else's install. Fair enough, I suppose, but I wish he would have just said that up front rather than having me send them all the info then ignoring it until I called them back.

As I was researching replacement stoves, I came across this forum, so I thought I'd post here and see if anyone else has an opinion on what the best course of action is or knows of any other options we might be missing.

I think if I do replace this stove, I'll move it out to the barn as part of another project to create a heated workshop, so maybe not a total loss.

Thanks,
Joe



Invoice to the previous owners for the install:

 

[kennyp2339]

 

[begreen]

What model is this, the 2140? Is there a rear heat shield on the stove? With rear heat shield and a pipe shield plus 24" ceiling protector, the manual lists corner clearance as 17".

 

[Hanns]

What model is this, the 2140? Is there a rear heat shield on the stove? With rear heat shield and a pipe shield plus 24" ceiling protector, the manual lists corner clearance as 17".

The manual I have (assuming it is correct) says Defiant Encore 0028.

Here's what the rear looks like. In the show room for the VC place I visited, they had a heat shield on the stove itself that looked like a detachable piece of sheet metal. However I'm getting the impression that's not an option for this model. They say to put it on the wall directly with an air gap.

 

[begreen]

The stove doesn't have the rear heat shield. It was an option for this model and it is possible that one from a new model 2140 would fit correctly. You might check here with the VC thread and under the Classic Stoves -> VC forum to see if anyone has a lead on one.

This stove puts out a lot of rear heat and has an unusually high, single-wall stove pipe clearance requirement of 24" instead of the common 18", thus the high clearance requirements. Another option would be to replace it with a stove that has lower clearance (and maintenance) requirements.

 

[Hanns]

The stove doesn't have the rear heat shield. It was an option for this model and it is possible that one from a new model 2140 would fit correctly. You might check here with the VC thread and under the Classic Stoves -> VC forum to see if anyone has a lead on one.

This stove puts out a lot of rear heat and has an unusually high, single-wall stove pipe clearance requirement of 24" instead of the common 18", thus the high clearance requirements. Another option would be to replace it with a stove that has lower clearance (and maintenance) requirements.

Yes, we looked at some Jotul models (F 500 Oslo and F 50 Rangeley), both of which have much better clearance requirements. That's definitely the easiest thing to do for us - it just comes with a price tag of $3500-3900 or so installed. That's why I just wanted to double-check that I'm not missing anything here before deciding which route to go.

I suspect whoever installed this just went with the more common 18" clearances rather than the 24" ... even though it's literally plastered on the back of the stove.

 

[begreen]

The F500 would be a poor pick for that location due to the side door. Some other options would be the Enviro Boston 1700, PE Alderlea T5 or T6, Jotul F55, Quadrafire Explorer III.

The Defiant is a big stove. Is this a large room in a large house? Is the floor plan pretty open to the rest of the house from this room?

 

[Hanns]

The F500 would be a poor pick for that location due to the side door. Some other options would be the Enviro Boston 1700, PE Alderlea T5 or T6, Jotul F55, Quadrafire Explorer III.

The Defiant is a big stove. Is this a large room in a large house? Is the floor plan pretty open to the rest of the house from this room?

It's in a pretty large room and the downstairs is fairly open. It's a 1950 cape cod with an extension, which is where the stove is. Total floor space is around 2100 sq ft, but that includes two bedrooms and a bathroom upstairs.

Our main heating system is an oil fired boiler with radiant baseboards which is pretty expensive to run even when we keep the temps cool at 60F in most areas. It's zoned, so we can use that in areas where the stove can't reach, while hopefully the stove can handle or supplement most of the downstairs - particularly the entertaining areas (living room, dining room, kitchen).

One shot of the room where the stove is for context, and another shot taken from the kitchen, looking through the dining room and into the living room where the stove is.

 

[begreen]

Looks good. I didn't want to recommend too large a stove, but it looks like you will be ok with one. The ceiling fans will need to run when the stove is going in order to move hot air trapped at the ceiling. Run them in winter mode (reversed, blowing upward) for more even and draft free heating.

 

[Ludlow]

Do a 45 to 45 offset in the stovepipe and kick the stove out to where it is safe. Why make things complicated?

 

[kennyp2339]

This is a perfect example of why I hate corner installs, they just take up to much room, a couple 45deg elbows will allow the stove to get kicked out away from the wall with out putting in another hole in the roof. Or you can research wall shields and a stove with closer clearances. A properly shielded wall can reduce the required clearance by 2/3.

 

[begreen]

We're happy with the way our corner install works and looks. A stove stuck in a corner square to the walls would look wrong. And it would cut out the fireview.

 

[Hanns]

This is a perfect example of why I hate corner installs, they just take up to much room, a couple 45deg elbows will allow the stove to get kicked out away from the wall with out putting in another hole in the roof. Or you can research wall shields and a stove with closer clearances. A properly shielded wall can reduce the required clearance by 2/3.

Funny part is, there's no shortage of space on the hearth to do a corner install properly. They just didn't.

Looking into the 45 degree piece for sure. That would be my #1 preferred option as it resolves spacing to the window sill/curtains (unlike a wall shield) and it doesn't change the look of the room while not costing thousands like a new stove would. I called another chimney place today to ask about that, but the answer was basically, "We're busy, email us" which I usually understand to mean I won't hear from them again. Maybe I'll be pleasantly surprised.

Part of me is really tempted to just mothball the whole thing until Summer when these places aren't drowning in work.

 

[begreen]

Not a bad idea if you don't need the heat. The issue with a couple 45s is this stove's 24" to the ceiling requirement for single wall pipe.

 

[Hanns]

Not a bad idea if you don't need the heat. The issue with a couple 45s is this stove's 24" to the ceiling requirement for single wall pipe.

Definitely need the heat. I remembered discussing that option briefly with one place and I was trying to find the exact reason why they didn't go for that, and I believe that was it - stove pipe clearance from the wall up to the roof of 24" and we can't use double walled pipe with this stove to bring that in. So back to wall shield or new stove.

 

[ShawnLiNY]

Why can’t you use double wall pipe ?

 

[Hanns]

Why can’t you use double wall pipe ?

What I was told is the type of pipe has to be matched to the stove, and this stove doesn't like double walled pipe. I don't know any of the technicalities behind that.

 

[bholler]

Why can’t you use double wall pipe ?

Double wall pipe would not change the stove clearances required

 

[bholler]

What I was told is the type of pipe has to be matched to the stove, and this stove doesn't like double walled pipe. I don't know any of the technicalities behind that.

That is bs double wall would work fine but won't change the stoves clearances.

 

[Ludlow]

I want to know what is underneath that ceramic tile.

 

[Ludlow]

Not a bad idea if you don't need the heat. The issue with a couple 45s is this stove's 24" to the ceiling requirement for single wall pipe.

I was thinking the 24" clearance was just for the ovalized pipe in the rear. More flatter surface area equals more radiant energy. I would check on that.

 

[georgepds]

Re" The chimney place told me the only option with this stove is to brick line the wall (though that doesn't really help with the window sill right there)."

If you brick, keep a 1" air space between the brick and the combustible wall. The brick is non combustible, but it is not an insulator

But like you say, it won't help with the window

 

[ShawnLiNY]

Double wall pipe would not change the stove clearances required

he wrote he couldn’t change pipe I thought he needed double wall for ceiling clearance ( after he is down 2’ from combustible ceiling he can install 2 45*!singles to move stove out so he conforms to space required the Room is massive he needs heat today I think 2 45* and a short piece of double wall to the thimble would be the cheapest easiest and something he is capable of

 

[Ludlow]

Manual mentions DSP. Only clearances to protected surfaces have not been tested with DSP. Otherwise the clearance is 12". Stove clearances are not reduced. So with DSP he could kick the stove out easily with no heat shielding on the pipe. Trying to figure out if the ceiling heat shield is still needed. One of the most confusing manuals I have ever read.

 

[ShawnLiNY]

Do a 45 to 45 offset in the stovepipe and kick the stove out to where it is safe. Why make things complicated?

I’m lost as to what is preventing this to solve ops clearance issues