**Best Insert for (ICF) Large Ranch - what would you buy!?

[begreen]

Just when I thought I had a plan (stove in basement). Now there's this. Hmmm - what to do? If only there were a way to test one out in each location.

It's how you use your house that matters. Some basements are not very inviting, others are insulated and nicely finished into family rooms, etc.. There are several people here that use one stove or insert for general heating and use the second as reserve for extremely cold weather.

It sounds like your location for a basement stove will allow good convection to upstairs. If the basement is an inviting area that you want to make cozier in the winter, putting a stove there should be ok. On the other hand, if you spend 90% of your time upstairs then putting a stove or insert on the main floor makes sense.

 

[BsFire]

That looks like roughly 200 gl of propane per month. If your furnace is 80% efficient, you needed 15 mBTU per month. (1 gl propane = 91,000 BTU) That's roughly one cord of average hardwood per month which comes up to maybe 4 cords per winter.

Just curious if you could tell me what this would equal in pellets?

Thanks!

 

[Grisu]

A ton of pellets is roughly 16 mBTU. At approx. 80% efficiency for a pellet stove you look at ~13 mBTU effective heat. Thus, roughly the same; around one ton per month in the deep of winter and less in the shoulder season. Maybe 4 tons overall.

 

[BsFire]

Ok... decision has been made! Going with a wood burning insert in the basement. Will still need to figure out which brand and model - but we're moving forward.

As far as final decision reasoning...

First of all, there is my better half She wants "a wood burner in the basement to help cut down on propane bills, not a mess in the living room" (ha!). Another thing with putting it on the main level, we would need to permanently change the look and function of the hearth and chimney - she doesn't want to do that with having the option of putting on in the basement (good point!). We can put a pellet in upstairs eventually if we need the extra heat source. Grisu - that's the only reason I asked about the pellet estimates.

Second, we are putting a pool table in the basement, in front of the hearth. I love to shoot and can't stand when something is in the way. I measured everything last night and I need that space - which is why I'm going with a insert vs a stove. Ideally I'd like to go with flush mount, again for the shooting space, but need to know a little more about the differences and options available. I also like the looks of the inserts better vs the stoves. I think it just gives the hearth a more finished look - and the look we're going for.

Finally, it's not just the mess, but it's going to be way more convenient. I'll be able to keep the wood right outside of our basement door - a few steps from the firebox. Going with wood vs pellet for sure. We have 4+ acres of woods and essentially free fuel. I know, I know, once it's seasoned (in a few years). I'll have to buy for this coming winter. And, don't worry, I'll be picking up a moisture meter this weekend!

Considering we have a really well insulated home, the open staircase, lots of returns and ceiling fans (including one in the center of the living room - not too far from the top of the steps). I think we'll get good enough air flow, heating the upstairs a decent amount, ultimately resulting in less propane usage. I've received a TON of great advice on here. I now know there are additional things I can do to help with convection if need be. So, a HUGE THANKS to everyone and all of the input!!

Now it's time for specific insert research. I don't mind "overheating" the basement in order to get more heat upstairs. I just want to have the option to damper it down and still have it work efficiently, when we are down there.

Thanks again!

 

[jeff_t]

Something to consider when looking at flush inserts is that many of them have very shallow and goofy shaped fireboxes, making them difficult to load their claimed capacity.

 

[begreen]

In addition to the shallow firebox, some flush inserts have no ashlip. This allows ash to get sucked up right into the blower if one does not keep the hearth very clean. Flush inserts also need the blower going all the time to put out decent heat. This is important if power outages are common in the area. Most of the motors on these blowers are not oilable. Expect to go through a blower motor every 3-5 yrs depending on fireplace use.

As a compromise, take a look at the Hearthstone Clydesdale which is adjustable to the fireplace depth. It's a nice looking, semi-flush, heater of good quality.
(broken link removed to http://www.hearthstonestoves.com/store/wood-products/wood-inserts/clydesdale-wood-insert)

 

[BsFire]

Something to consider when looking at flush inserts is that many of them have very shallow and goofy shaped fireboxes, making them difficult to load their claimed capacity.

Very good to know. Thank you!

 

[BsFire]

In addition to the shallow firebox, some flush inserts have no ashlip. This allows ash to get sucked up right into the blower if one does not keep the hearth very clean. Flush inserts also need the blower going all the time to put out decent heat. This is important if power outages are common in the area. Most of the motors on these blowers are not oilable. Expect to go through a blower motor every 3-5 yrs depending on fireplace use.

As a compromise, take a look at the Hearthstone Clydesdale which is adjustable to the fireplace depth. It's a nice looking, semi-flush, heater of good quality.
(broken link removed to http://www.hearthstonestoves.com/store/wood-products/wood-inserts/clydesdale-wood-insert)

Also very good to know! That Clydesdale looks nice - but seems a little pricey compared to others that have larger fireboxes (cu ft) and the efficiency is a little lower. That's just at first glance though. I'll add it to the list and look into it a little closer. Thanks!

 

[kennyp2339]

Do the wood stove (free stander or insert in the basement) let that set you standard for heat down stairs, there should be impact of a little heat coming up stairs but it wont be much. Run this setup for a season and find out which area's upstairs are the coldest ie: kitchen, dinning room, living room. Next season install a pellet stove in one of those rooms to help balance the heat load.

 

[BsFire]

Reading some really good things about the BK Princess!

 

[begreen]

BK Princess would be a good choice, but not flush. So would be the PE Summit in non-cat.

 

[BsFire]

BK Princess would be a good choice, but not flush. So would be the PE Summit in non-cat.

I will need to double check the space, but I think I'd be ok with a non-flush insert. I don't want to limit myself too much.

 

[Grisu]

Ok... decision has been made! Going with a wood burning insert in the basement. Will still need to figure out which brand and model - but we're moving forward.

As far as final decision reasoning...

First of all, there is my better half She wants "a wood burner in the basement to help cut down on propane bills, not a mess in the living room" (ha!). Another thing with putting it on the main level, we would need to permanently change the look and function of the hearth and chimney - she doesn't want to do that with having the option of putting on in the basement (good point!). We can put a pellet in upstairs eventually if we need the extra heat source. Grisu - that's the only reason I asked about the pellet estimates.

Second, we are putting a pool table in the basement, in front of the hearth. I love to shoot and can't stand when something is in the way. I measured everything last night and I need that space - which is why I'm going with a insert vs a stove. Ideally I'd like to go with flush mount, again for the shooting space, but need to know a little more about the differences and options available. I also like the looks of the inserts better vs the stoves. I think it just gives the hearth a more finished look - and the look we're going for.

Finally, it's not just the mess, but it's going to be way more convenient. I'll be able to keep the wood right outside of our basement door - a few steps from the firebox. Going with wood vs pellet for sure. We have 4+ acres of woods and essentially free fuel. I know, I know, once it's seasoned (in a few years). I'll have to buy for this coming winter. And, don't worry, I'll be picking up a moisture meter this weekend!

Considering we have a really well insulated home, the open staircase, lots of returns and ceiling fans (including one in the center of the living room - not too far from the top of the steps). I think we'll get good enough air flow, heating the upstairs a decent amount, ultimately resulting in less propane usage. I've received a TON of great advice on here. I now know there are additional things I can do to help with convection if need be. So, a HUGE THANKS to everyone and all of the input!!

Now it's time for specific insert research. I don't mind "overheating" the basement in order to get more heat upstairs. I just want to have the option to damper it down and still have it work efficiently, when we are down there.

Thanks again!

Sounds like you have thought that out well. One caveat: You cannot really "damper down" a secondary burn stove. They are designed to burn cleanly which means they need to achieve a high enough operating temperature to do that. If you need less heat from such a stove you need to load less wood. A catalytic stove or insert will already burn clean at a lower temperature so with those you can turn down the air more. The BK Princess would be a good choice in that regard. Still, I would also look at their 20 series in stoves which can probably pushed far enough into the fireplace that they are not an obstacle. For a secondary burn stove/insert look into the 2 cu ft range of a firebox. The way your house is insulated I highly doubt you will need more.

Do you prefer a modern look or a more classic one? Maybe a Jotul C450 would fit in well with the design you have planned for that room. Or a Hampton HI300, although it is not flush?

 

[BsFire]

Sounds like you have thought that out well. One caveat: You cannot really "damper down" a secondary burn stove. They are designed to burn cleanly which means they need to achieve a high enough operating temperature to do that. If you need less heat from such a stove you need to load less wood. A catalytic stove or insert will already burn clean at a lower temperature so with those you can turn down the air more. The BK Princess would be a good choice in that regard. Still, I would also look at their 20 series in stoves which can probably pushed far enough into the fireplace that they are not an obstacle. For a secondary burn stove/insert look into the 2 cu ft range of a firebox. The way your house is insulated I highly doubt you will need more.

Do you prefer a modern look or a more classic one? Maybe a Jotul C450 would fit in well with the design you have planned for that room. Or a Hampton HI300, although it is not flush?

Great explanation and info! The more I think about this, I think versatility is probably the most important factor for us. I read a lot about the BK, and love the option to go full heat with the large firebox - plus the option to turn it down and go slow and low. Not to mention the long burn times. "Set and go" is very appealing. That's what we need! Large firebox with lots of heat to crank when we're not downstairs, option to turn down so we aren't getting overheated when we are down there - burning clean and efficient with both 'settings'.

The BK sounds awesome, but not a huge fan of the look. I prefer the older classic look. I'm ok with going non-flush. **Are there any inserts that can perform at the same level and versatility as the BK?

Obviously there's the cat/non-cat route to consider. Sounds like the cats are more versatile.

 

[prezes13]

Take a look at Avalon/Lopi line of stoves. Their hybrid stoves are very pretty but not not as functional as BK stoves. In my opinion if you put a woodstove in your basement and a pellet stove upstairs you will have a pretty cool and efficient setup.

 

[FirewoodAddict]

Good reasons for installing in basement:
1) I can stack wood right outside the door (instead of carrying through the house if it's on the main level - can be a pain).
2) Much easier setup. The main level will need the damper knocked out and a few bricks removed. With (say a 91) a small portion of the hearth will need to be chipped away also, due to the arched shape.
3) From the basement, the flue would be taller which results in better draft (from what I read).

Good reasons for installing on main level:
1) Pretty much a given we'll heat the main level
2) It would be nice for viewing

If you can think of anything else to add, please do. I'm here for all the input I can get!

If I knew for sure putting one in the basement would heat the main level this would be a much easier decision.

So... if I were to put the BIGGEST BADDEST wood burning insert in the basement, would it heat the main level?
What is the BIGGEST BADDEST wood insert?

Decisions decisions! I'll keep researching I guess.

I'll check on the exact propane usage tonight and post the numbers.

Here's my .02.
Installed a Clydesdale on Jan 22 2015 in the basement of my ranch. Total sq ft of house is 2508. Basement is about 800sq ft with the intention that I would be able to transfer enough heat upstairs to significantly impact heating costs.
Basement is very well insulated, but unfortunately the ceiling is insulated drywall so while I was able to transfer some heat upstairs, it did not have the impact I desired. Other thing to consider, my basement floor is a thin carpet with no padding which from what I have read the concrete floor will suck up a lot of the heat from the stove. I actually got my heating bill on the day we had the insert installed and was $355 so I was able to really compare apples to oranges in my first month. January was not as cold as February and Feb was BRUTALLY cold here and my bill in Feb was $282 so definitely some savings but not the monster impact I was hoping for and would argue that if Feb was on par with the average temp in Jan my bill would have probably been in the $235-$250 range??

Anyway, if you do end up with it in the basement you WILL need a fan at the top of the stairs pointing down to replace the cool air upstairs with the warm air downstairs if that made any sense Otherwise the Clydesdale is a nice stove and I really have no complaints if your still kicking around some optional equipment. Best of Luck and Happy Burnin'!

 

[BsFire]

Here's my .02.
Installed a Clydesdale on Jan 22 2015 in the basement of my ranch. Total sq ft of house is 2508. Basement is about 800sq ft with the intention that I would be able to transfer enough heat upstairs to significantly impact heating costs.
Basement is very well insulated, but unfortunately the ceiling is insulated drywall so while I was able to transfer some heat upstairs, it did not have the impact I desired. Other thing to consider, my basement floor is a thin carpet with no padding which from what I have read the concrete floor will suck up a lot of the heat from the stove. I actually got my heating bill on the day we had the insert installed and was $355 so I was able to really compare apples to oranges in my first month. January was not as cold as February and Feb was BRUTALLY cold here and my bill in Feb was $282 so definitely some savings but not the monster impact I was hoping for and would argue that if Feb was on par with the average temp in Jan my bill would have probably been in the $235-$250 range??

Anyway, if you do end up with it in the basement you WILL need a fan at the top of the stairs pointing down to replace the cool air upstairs with the warm air downstairs if that made any sense Otherwise the Clydesdale is a nice stove and I really have no complaints if your still kicking around some optional equipment. Best of Luck and Happy Burnin'!

Plan is start with the wood insert in the basement. Hoping to at least have some impact on the propane. How much is unknown. So we'll just have to see. I plan on doing what I can to increase air flow throughout the house as well. I can see us spending more and more time in the basement, so it will def be worth it. The plan is to most likely add a pellet stove or insert eventually on the main level to help balance it out.

We have the same kind of carpet/concrete setup - so thanks for that info. We are looking to replace the carpet really soon, so I'll take that into consideration when it comes to the carpet and pad.

Do mind if I ask what you paid for the Clydesdale?

Thanks!

 

[rideau]

Don't know if you ABSOLUTELY don't have room for a stove vs insert in the basement, but one advantage of a stove would be that if you installed it and it didn't work and you felt you needed to have your wood heat source upstairs, you could easily move the stove. Don't know how high your hearths are raised, but with a Fireview or Progress Hybrid (side loaders) you can subtract the height of the hearth from the required front clearance. If you reverse cycle that ceiling fan on the first floor, and put a small fan at the top of the stairs pushing cold air down, then I would think you could get a convective loop going. Also, put a small fan at floor level at the furthest points from your staircase and push the cold air toward the stairs. A bedroom wing could easily be kept closed off until an hour or so before bed time, then opened, and a fan turned on at the farthest point of that area. Within an hour I would expect, from my experience, that the area would have warmed up quite a bit.

With insulation between the first floor and basement, you will not get heat through the floor, but should still get plenty up the stairs. A finished well insulated basement should heat a first floor nearly as well as a finished first floor heats a second floor- a tiny bit less because of the ceiling insulation in your basement, but most of the heat moves up the stairs, not through the floor. Having a warm basement, the floor on the first level will not be cold and will reduce the heat needed on the first level anyway. With your heat retention, I would not expect you to have trouble heating from the basement, especially since you aren't committed to heating 100% from wood. Although I suspect you will, given your home.

 

[Nelson]

Here's our Propane usage/bill info:

Nov. 11: 89 gallons
Dec. 13: 111 gallons
Jan. 17: 202 gallons
Feb. 25: 225 gallons

all @ $2.59 a gallon

Those are actually pretty decent numbers for a house your size. What do you keep your thermo set at typically?

For some perspective, we have a similar set up with a ranch with partial exposed lower level. Our home was built in the 70s so not as well insulated. We are at about 4,000 sq ft (2000 up and 2000 down). Last year, we went through 1600 gallons of propane. Approximately 400 (say, 30-40 gallons per month) of that was for hot water so 1200 gallons for heating. Looks like you will be around half that so, from my perspective, you are doing well.

We put in a Summit PE Insert in the basement this past fall and i'm guestimating that we have cut that 1200 gallons, for heating, by at least half. Probably going to end up on the order of 400-500 gallons for heating this season.

As far as basement heating goes, I have found that the heat does a pretty good job of moving upstairs. Our stairwell is similar to yours with the exception that it is open on one side and it has a railing (as opposed to your finished wall).

As others have mentioned, it's nice having easy access to the basement for bringing wood in. It also keeps the mess in the basement. We do have a fireplace upstairs. At some point down the road, we may look to put a smaller insert in that one to help with heating. However, getting ahead on wood is hard enough with one stove so I'm not in a hurry to add another stove to the mix until I am more comfortable with how much wood I can proces in a given year.

Anyway, we've been really happy with the Summit. Great burn times and it can chrun out the heat with properly seasoned wood. Word of advice, though, it really does need seasoned wood. You will see that mentioned over and over and over and over again on this forum. Don't discount it. I wasn't ahead on my wood this year and ended up burning some less than desireable wood and the difference in heat output, versus truly seasoned wood, is absolutely incredible. With that less than desireable wood, it was a constant battle. I ended up burning some nice seasoned cherry at the end of this season and it was a totally different burning experience, in a good way. Soooooo much less work.

Hope that helps!

 

[BsFire]

Those are actually pretty decent numbers for a house your size. What do you keep your thermo set at typically?

For some perspective, we have a similar set up with a ranch with partial exposed lower level. Our home was built in the 70s so not as well insulated. We are at about 4,000 sq ft (2000 up and 2000 down). Last year, we went through 1600 gallons of propane. Approximately 400 (say, 30-40 gallons per month) of that was for hot water so 1200 gallons for heating. Looks like you will be around half that so, from my perspective, you are doing well.

We put in a Summit PE Insert in the basement this past fall and i'm guestimating that we have cut that 1200 gallons, for heating, by at least half. Probably going to end up on the order of 400-500 gallons for heating this season.

As far as basement heating goes, I have found that the heat does a pretty good job of moving upstairs. Our stairwell is similar to yours with the exception that it is open on one side and it has a railing (as opposed to your finished wall).

As others have mentioned, it's nice having easy access to the basement for bringing wood in. It also keeps the mess in the basement. We do have a fireplace upstairs. At some point down the road, we may look to put a smaller insert in that one to help with heating. However, getting ahead on wood is hard enough with one stove so I'm not in a hurry to add another stove to the mix until I am more comfortable with how much wood I can proces in a given year.

Anyway, we've been really happy with the Summit. Great burn times and it can chrun out the heat with properly seasoned wood. Word of advice, though, it really does need seasoned wood. You will see that mentioned over and over and over and over again on this forum. Don't discount it. I wasn't ahead on my wood this year and ended up burning some less than desireable wood and the difference in heat output, versus truly seasoned wood, is absolutely incredible. With that less than desireable wood, it was a constant battle. I ended up burning some nice seasoned cherry at the end of this season and it was a totally different burning experience, in a good way. Soooooo much less work.

Hope that helps!

This definitely helps - thanks! Probably one of the best comparisons I've gotten.

In regards to the Summit you have in the basement... does it overheat the basement? Are you able to hang out down there comfortably? Are you able to "dial it back" if need be? The Summit is on my list - so would love some insight.

Thanks!!

 

[Nelson]

@BsFire

The Summit does not overheat the basement at all. However, we have uninsulated concrete floors (I know, that sucks ) so definitely losing some heat to that. If you're within 5 feet or so, it's going to be hot but the heat spreads out nicely from there. Also, the room we have our stove in is pretty wide open so no chance for the heat to stay in one area. In addition, a lot of that heat is making its way upstairs too. We keep a small fan blowing towards the stove, at the bottom of the stairs which helps to move the air around. We actually have a few bedrooms down there and it's hard to get them in the 66-68 degree range. So, unless the room you have the stove in is closed up, you should have no issues.

I haven't really had a need to build smaller fires, since the house is fairly large and we only have the one stove going. That said, I have built smaller fires in it and it is just fine. However, I will say, the Summit loves a fully loaded stove!

All in all, given your footprint and square footage, I don't believe there is a stove on the market that is going to heat you out of that house or the basement. It's just too much sq footage for any one stove.

Finally, I will just say that we've been really happy with the Summit!

Good luck!

 

[BsFire]

@BsFire

The Summit does not overheat the basement at all. However, we have uninsulated concrete floors (I know, that sucks ) so definitely losing some heat to that. If you're within 5 feet or so, it's going to be hot but the heat spreads out nicely from there. Also, the room we have our stove in is pretty wide open so no chance for the heat to stay in one area. In addition, a lot of that heat is making its way upstairs too. We keep a small fan blowing towards the stove, at the bottom of the stairs which helps to move the air around. We actually have a few bedrooms down there and it's hard to get them in the 66-68 degree range. So, unless the room you have the stove in is closed up, you should have no issues.

I haven't really had a need to build smaller fires, since the house is fairly large and we only have the one stove going. That said, I have built smaller fires in it and it is just fine. However, I will say, the Summit loves a fully loaded stove!

All in all, given your footprint and square footage, I don't believe there is a stove on the market that is going to heat you out of that house or the basement. It's just too much sq footage for any one stove.

Finally, I will just say that we've been really happy with the Summit!

Good luck!

All sounds good. I really appreciate the info! Now I need to start checking them out in person.

Thanks!

 

[Nelson]

Happy to help. I was in a similar situation before we purchased so I know how valuable some perspective and experience is! This is a great place to get it!

 

[Grisu]

All in all, given your footprint and square footage, I don't believe there is a stove on the market that is going to heat you out of that house or the basement. It's just too much sq footage for any one stove.

I beg to differ. We already know that the whole house can be heated with less than 200 gls of propane in one of the coldest months we had for years. That's roughly 15 mBTUs which you can get out of one cord of hardwood. I can burn one cord of wood in my 2 cu ft PE Super in one month. Anything substantially bigger would be a waste of money, IMHO, plus running small fires all the time won't get you the efficiency that the stove can provide. The real problem will be to get the heat from that one basement room throughout the house.

 

[Nelson]

@Grisu Fair points. I missed what temp OP likes to keep the home at. I think that could make a difference. If OP currently keeps house at 66 and desires to keep at 70, that could make a big difference in propane usage and, thus, how much heat you're looking to get out of the stove.

As I mentioned, my lower level isn't insulated as well so can't necessarily compare apples to apples. I still maintain, regardless of how well insulated the home is, you can't buy a big enough stove for 5,000 sq ft. if you are looking to reduce propane use as much as possible.