Big Run up in Heating Costs this winter - No urgency?

[begreen]

The Energy Star program has been quite successful in raising overall energy efficiency, but I still expect the typical consumer would rather get an optional icemaker than pay a bit more for a refrigerator that is more efficient.

Energy Star is one thing, but reliability is another. We upgraded to ES appliances in 2010-2012, but I checked repair records first. A friend bought a Samsung refrig at the same time we got our GE, both the same design. Within 2 yrs they were having the Samsung serviced. 10 yrs later and the GE has been flawless.

 

[Poindexter]

I do think life cycle cost is an important thing to look at. Not just energy consuming things like cars, but also landfill choking items like furniture, curtains and carpeting. Clothing.

As our particle board furniture with the plastic veneer layer furniture wears out, I am replacing with home made hardwood. When the furniture I build wears out you can at least cook food on it, I am using natural finishes like beeswax and so on. Carpet we are replacing with marmoleum.

 

[vinny11950]

Energy Star is one thing, but reliability is another. We upgraded to ES appliances in 2010-2012, but I checked repair records first. A friend bought a Samsung refrig at the same time we got our GE, both the same design. Within 2 yrs they were having the Samsung serviced. 10 yrs later and the GE has been flawless.

I bought a Samsung refrigerator in 2010 and I had to change a bunch of parts in 2017 just to keep it going. Tech support is awful, parts diagrams are difficult to read, parts are hard to find, customer support is bad when you ask them how to troubleshoot their product they tell you to schedule a service call. Occasionally and randomly the control will start beeping for no reason. But I am determined to get 20 years out of the appliance.

 

[Ashful]

Just bought a Samsung dishwasher, being the only thing available at the time from Lowes, other than real low-end $400 Maytags. Wanted a Bosch, as I've had real good luck with other Bosch appliances, but they've been having massive delivery problems (like consistently quoting 2 weeks and then taking 5 - 7 months). Hopefully I have better luck than you, so much of this stuff seems to be luck of the draw, anymore.

But you guys bring up a good point, re: the contribution of energy consumed in manufacturing and disposing of an appliance, in figuring it's net lifetime energy usage. Personally, I couldn't care less how much electricity any appliance I own uses while I own it, the difference from one to the next is truly not enough to waste a minute of thought on it. But if the damn thing dies on my five years in, and costs me a week of evenings to repair or replace, I'd pay an extra $500 up front just to avoid that hassle.

I guess in a round-about way, I'm greener than I realized, as reliability and expected lifetime are always at the top of my priority list when shopping any home appliance.

 

[EbS-P]

I bought a Samsung refrigerator in 2010 and I had to change a bunch of parts in 2017 just to keep it going. Tech support is awful, parts diagrams are difficult to read, parts are hard to find, customer support is bad when you ask them how to troubleshoot their product they tell you to schedule a service call. Occasionally and randomly the control will start beeping for no reason. But I am determined to get 20 years out of the appliance.

My parents gave up on theirs. Soda stream and ice maker quit. It’s runs ok. It’s my second fridge now. I didn’t feel bad sawing a hole in the side. It really is a piece of junk as service bulletin said to add a piece of insulation to the back so condensation would not drip down the back to the floor.

 

[peakbagger]

I have a 25 year old Staber washing machine (I have mentioned it before). I paid a premium to begin with but it just keeps on running. Made in USA. Very low electric and water use. They have not changed the design for decades, they do not have any service firms as they are designed to be repaired by the owner. Only four moving parts (drum, belt, motor and pump), no transmission. The timers and switches are mechanical, and they use a very robust variable speed drive that has been around for decades. The pump has a rubber liner and impeller, if something does manage to get in it, no damage. Stainless drum, no seals. Add a coin box and it could be used commercially (and reportedly is). My guess is it will be running as long as I am around.

Unfortunately their business model is a tough one, they run forever and the upfront cost is high so a typical consumer probably will not look at them.

 

[begreen]

What surprised me with my friend's Samsung was what a pain it was to work on. The problem was relatively simple, but getting at the part took major surgery.

 

[Rusty18]

There’s a smoke pen in my Amazon cart, I’ve plugged all the leaks I can find with incense sticks. Electric bill is less than half what it was when we moved in 4 years ago(all electric house). I’d like to cut another 20% off if it and think it’s doable just on hvac losses through poor design and maintenance.

As far as electric usage this winter...I strongly suspect my wife is ready to learn how to run the stove. She don’t like those big electric bills.

 

[ABMax24]

Price gouging is really having an effect here, our gas and diesel prices haven't really dropped since oil peaked at over $120/barrel.

Standard fuel price markup is 14 cents/liter, right now retailers are taking about 42 cents/liter.

It's caught the attention of those in government, be interesting to see if anything happens.

Edit:

Here are the Canadian Wholesale Rack prices for fuel in $/liter. Excise tax, carbon tax, and provincial fuel tax is additional to these prices.

Petro-Canada Rack Price - Terminal Rack Prices

If you're interested in our Petro-Canada rack price, here are Suncor Energy's latest terminal rack prices for resellers and wholesale customers. Our rack pricing includes Intra-day, daily, weekly average and twice-weekly average rack prices.

www.petro-canada.ca

 

[sloeffle]

But if the damn thing dies on my five years in, and costs me a week of evenings to repair or replace, I'd pay an extra $500 up front just to avoid that hassle.

All day long.

Since we are bashing appliance makers, I'll take my shot. Bought a supposed top of the line Kitchen Aid refrigerator a number of years. First one was DOA. Should of bailed out of the deal that point but didn't. Second one died after 6 months, died again a month or so later, and then died again a month after that. Old school repair guy ended up using Frigidaire parts to fix our Whirlpool product. It's been fine since. The $300 Frigidaire fridge I bought off of the floor to use when we were having problems at Lowes is still kicking at the ex's house.

 

[sneefy]

Samsung appliances are known for being terribly unreliable. Their other electronics are solid, so they apparently ride on that reputation.

 

[Ashful]

All day long.

Since we are bashing appliance makers, I'll take my shot. Bought a supposed top of the line Kitchen Aid refrigerator a number of years. First one was DOA. Should of bailed out of the deal that point but didn't. Second one died after 6 months, died again a month or so later, and then died again a month after that. Old school repair guy ended up using Frigidaire parts to fix our Whirlpool product. It's been fine since. The $300 Frigidaire fridge I bought off of the floor to use when we were having problems at Lowes is still kicking at the ex's house.

My last refrigerator was a KitchenAid, came with our house. Compressor failed within 2 years of manufacture, and even though I didn't have a receipt (prior homeowner had that), KitchenAid did honor the warranty to me, based on the manufacture date. Of course I didn't tell them I wasn't the original owner, that shouldn't matter when you make and sell products that die so fast.

Lifespans of major household appliances started really dropping 20 years ago, and at the time, I remember feeling it was justified by the (then) low price of purchase. Sure, my parents' refrigerators lasted 20-30 years, and mine only lasted 10 years... but they were paying two weeks' salary for theirs. whereas I was paying two days' salary for mine. In the end, the total cost of ownership was similar or better for me, and I didn't have to subject myself to looking at an out-dated 20 year old refrigerator in my kitchen while waiting for the damn thing to earn back its initial price.

But recently, the price of these cheaply-made appliances has sky-rocketed. Whereas very nice refrigerators cost $800 just 15-20 years ago, now the mid-range is around $2k! With that, the lifetimes have stayed short, or even reduced further, making for very poor overall value.

 

[brenndatomu]

KitchenAid did honor the warranty to me, based on the manufacture date.

I bought a used 8 month old Champion inverter genny and it turned out that it didn't work right at all...I called them and they said send it in for warranty repair...until I said I bought it used and have no receipt...but based on the build date they did send me a new controller (most expensive part on the whole machine according to them) for free, but that did not fix it
After a little research I called them back and suggested that another small electrical control could be the culprit...they agreed and sent me that for free too...that did fix it then, and color me impressed with Champion Power Equipment!
I like to buy USA made when possible, but nobody makes inverter gennys totally in the USA anyways (as far as I found) and this one was used anyways, so I just went with the machine I wanted when the "deal" popped up.
More so on topic...I had a 13 month old Whirlpool fridge crap out just weeks after the 1 year warranty...replaced the bad evap fan motor with an aftermarket motor and its been fine since 2009

 

[Montanalocal]

This is a Youtube segment by a service person that lists good brands and models of appliances that he thinks have the best quality. There is a listing under the “show more” link when you watch it on Youtube.

 

[sloeffle]

This is a Youtube segment by a service person that lists good brands and models of appliances that he thinks have the best quality. There is a listing under the “show more” link when you watch it on Youtube.

When the service guy was here, I asked him which manufacturer was the best. He said "none of them". At that time he recommended staying away from imported brands because he said parts were hard to get ahold of and you generally have to use that companies support people. He also didn't work on them so I'd say there was some job security there. With that said, I bought a Bosch dishwasher years, and years ago. Never a lick of problems out of it( knock on wood ).

 

[vinny11950]

I add that my old 12 year old window mounted Fregedaire 12,000 btu AC just died last Friday (hot day). It was rated 10 amps. I found a LG unit of 8,000 btus ($300) that only uses 6.2 amps. So far so good. It has kept me cool and, more importantly, it is saving me electricity money.

I guess you can try to make some appliances last, but at some point it is counter productive.

I have a 50 pint dehumidifier in the basement that uses 4.6 amps and I am thinking it may be oversized and a new, smaller and more efficient unit might save me more money in the long run. $10 a month adds up over the years.

 

[brenndatomu]

I have a 50 pint dehumidifier in the basement that uses 4.6 amps and I am thinking it may be oversized and a new, smaller and more efficient unit might save me more money in the long run. $10 a month adds up over the years.

What do you have for a water heater? I replaced my 50 gall electric with a 50 gall HPWH and have been saving an average of $15/mo since...some of that is because I don't have to run a separate dehumidifier anymore, the HPWH does it well enough by itself.

 

[vinny11950]

What do you have for a water heater? I replaced my 50 gall electric with a 50 gall HPWH and have been saving an average of $15/mo since...some of that is because I don't have to run a separate dehumidifier anymore, the HPWH does it well enough by itself.

I followed your other thread on that closely and I want to do the same thing. Right now I have an on demand electric water heater that was installed in 2010. I am angling to replace it with a hybrid water heater in the next few years. when I have the time and money. And I have to move some stuff around in the basement to make it work. But it's on my list. Like everything else, the AO Smith model I was looking at went from $1300 to $1750. The Christmas before the pandemic I could have bought it for $650 after utility company rebates. Oh well.

 

[begreen]

Thought for the day from Neil deGrasse Tyson as gas prices start to decline nationwide:

Do the Math:

1962
Gas: 30-cents/gallon
Median Household Income $6,000
Mileage: 14 mpg
Distance per 1/1,000 of income: 280 miles

2022
Gas: $5.00/gallon
Median Household Income $75,000
Mileage: 25 mpg
Distance per 1/1,000 of income: 375 miles
We travel farther today on earned money than we did 60 years ago.

Unfortunately, one thing that skews this proposal is how "median household income" has been skewed with so many millionaires and billionaires. It's a case for how to lie with statistics. Not too helpful for a nurse, teacher, or carpenter.

 

[Ashful]

It's a case for how to lie with statistics. Not too helpful for a nurse, teacher, or carpenter.

View attachment 296878

Good post, begreen. But your graph is actually a prime example of how to lie with statistics.

The one percentile individual income in 2021 was $357,552, and the median was $44,225, a ratio of 8:1. Adjusting for inflation, the ratio in 1996 (the earliest year for which there is data easily available) was $254,590 to $34,130 = 7.6:1. There is NOT a growing disparity between 1% and medium income, it is actually shrinking. The numbers don't lie.

I’ll agree the gap may be growing in dollars, dollars are worth less each year. As a true ratio of income, the trend is toward a decreasing gap. Your graph is just plotted in a way to make it appear that the gap is growing, but you can clearly see that even by 1985, the ratio of growth from 1980 is greater than the ratio today.

 

[begreen]

That seems to be a question of where the data is pulled from. A quick google check came up with the average "wage" of a top 1%er in 2020 at $823,763. The bottom 90% average wage was $40,085.

The latest available data from the EPI show that in 2020 annual wages for the top 1% reached $823,763, up 7.3% compared to 2019. How much do you need to earn to be in the top 0.1%? A hefty $3,212,486, which is almost 10% more than that group earned a year before. Wages for the bottom 90% rose at a much more modest rest of just 1.7% over the same period, with an average income of $40,085.

Wage inequality continued to increase in 2020: Top 1.0% of earners see wages up 179% since 1979 while share of wages for bottom 90% hits new low

Newly available wage data from the Social Security Administration allow us to analyze wage trends for the top 1.0% and other very high earners as well as for the bottom 90% during 2020. The upward distribution of wages from the bottom 90% to the top 1.0% that was evident over the period from...

www.epi.org

 

[Ashful]

That seems to be a question of where the data is pulled from. A quick google check came up with the average "wage" of a top 1%er in 2020 at $823,763. The bottom 90% average wage was $40,085.

The latest available data from the EPI show that in 2020 annual wages for the top 1% reached $823,763, up 7.3% compared to 2019. How much do you need to earn to be in the top 0.1%? A hefty $3,212,486, which is almost 10% more than that group earned a year before. Wages for the bottom 90% rose at a much more modest rest of just 1.7% over the same period, with an average income of $40,085.

Wage inequality continued to increase in 2020: Top 1.0% of earners see wages up 179% since 1979 while share of wages for bottom 90% hits new low

Newly available wage data from the Social Security Administration allow us to analyze wage trends for the top 1.0% and other very high earners as well as for the bottom 90% during 2020. The upward distribution of wages from the bottom 90% to the top 1.0% that was evident over the period from...

www.epi.org

Interesting. Not sure if you listen to Common Sense by Dan Carlin, but this is one of his frequent themes: "How can we debate the meaning of the facts, when we can't even agree on the facts?"

I'm not sure if my source had bad data, it's very possible. But I have even more trouble believing 1 percentile for individual income was $823,763 in 2020, that sounds more like a total household income number, if not even optimistic for that.

No horse in this fight, I think the underlying point of your post was excellent, with regard to miles driven per hour of income. But I do think the graph on income gap was plotted in a way that appears very deceptive, no matter what the actual numbers may be.

 

[begreen]

I know, it's staggering how much of the nation's wealth is now in the hands of relatively few and out of circulation. The numbers are from the SSA so I would assume individual and not household income.

 

[peakbagger]

Most of the wealth increase is in capital gains not wages. Capital gains are taxed low and in many cases are not really taxed at all if passed on to heirs.

 

[ABMax24]

I think what's most interesting is the near stagnant wages of the middle class. Leaders are quite happy to promise help to the poorest of the population, as long as they don't pay for it.

So the lowest income earners get tax breaks, rebates, grants, social assistance, etc. The rich hide their wealth in corporations, paying tax only as capital gains, if even that. And the middle class are stuck footing the bill for more than their fair share.