Garage Chimney Repairs & Planning Ahead

[mnowaczyk]

I thought I’d give an update. Our natural gas bills keeping the house as chilly as I can and not heating a drafty addition, we are still getting natural gas bills over $300 and the electric usage is up there too. Next month’s combined bill will be about $575 for gas and electric. The natural gas is also hot water and range usage too. So the heating cost is certainly below $10/day. Feeding an insert will certainly be working for <$10/day. So I guess it might just make sense to stick with the open fireplace, even if that costs me money. I should figure out what our baseline and max natural gas usage is and maybe figure out how much electricity the hydronic pumps are using too.

I rarely drop the thermostats we use below 60 F, and try to make sure they are always under 68 F too. 65 is pretty common. I try to open the blinds every sunny day for as much solar gain as possible. I think insulation and perhaps power blinds (scheduled to open when sun is shining) for these windows might make more sense.

Thermostats:
one for all the first floor other than the drafty addition, and one for second and third floors. We keep the addition off and have rarely used that nice room all winter bc of that.

I still struggle a little as to whether burning wood in my scenario is a lot greener than burying the carbon from the wood in the ground, slowing its release into the atmosphere.

 

[mnowaczyk]

I have a detached garage with a chimney that I plan to get repaired and capped with a concrete cap like that on the house in the coming week.



I think I want to put one liner in each floor of the chimney planning ahead for whatever various thinks could possibly be done inside this garage that has a 100 amp power panel, natural gas, water and sewer and also houses the pool pump and filter stuff. I hope to build a bathroom in there and maybe create a guest house some day.

But now I need to protect the chimney and it’s stucco. Water obviously enters the chimney and shows cracks in the stucco every time we get a lot of rain. I have a great stucco and chimney guy that is willing to do the work, but I want to make sure I choose the right chimney liner materials for this all masonry chimney:

- double wall?
- Terra cotta?
- stainless?
- galvanized?
- aluminum?
- vermiculite?

While I understand as a GARAGE the space may not legally house a wood stove, I could see possibly getting around that in the future somehow, like maybe removing the garage door, or dividing interior space. You never know.

Now upstairs, the floors are wood. And heat rises so well, I don’t see ever installing a fireplace or wood stove upstairs. Maybe a heater, water heater etc could possibly go upstairs.

So maybe two different types of liners should be installed. Then fill with vermiculite. Then somehow block off the top around the liners with some non-flammable material. I’m thinking of something like plywood but obviously not plywood. Maybe concrete tile backer board would work well. Then the chimney can be capped with concrete like the house.



wood stove? Well, it would be wonderful to be able to have an open fireplace which would require a big flue. Right? I’ve only really got a max of ~8”x8” x2 that I can fit in the chimney. Maybe that’s plenty. Just do terracotta?

My chimney guy is ready to start, but I want to make sure this gets done right. I will post some video I took.

 

[mnowaczyk]

3rd of 5 videos:

To view this content we will need your consent to set third party cookies.
For more detailed information, see our cookies page.

Accept third party cookies

4th video of 5:

To view this content we will need your consent to set third party cookies.
For more detailed information, see our cookies page.

Accept third party cookies

 

[mnowaczyk]

So I guess I need to figure out what appliances I want to install in order to figure out what size liver(s) I should install. I’d love to get this chimney situation all ironed out, but I guess the fact is that I may be trying to plan too far ahead.

BUT… if I could always slip a smaller liner inside a larger one, that may be an argument for just installing two 8” round liners now to have something done.

Whatever I do, I’m going to need rain deflectors on the tops of the liners so I don’t just have water draining inside the liners into the living space below.

Maybe I should really be investigating caps like a spring loaded cap for an open fireplace. Hmm

 

[bholler]

So I guess I need to figure out what appliances I want to install in order to figure out what size liver(s) I should install. I’d love to get this chimney situation all ironed out, but I guess the fact is that I may be trying to plan too far ahead.

BUT… if I could always slip a smaller liner inside a larger one, that may be an argument for just installing two 8” round liners now to have something done.

Whatever I do, I’m going to need rain deflectors on the tops of the liners so I don’t just have water draining inside the liners into the living space below.

Maybe I should really be investigating caps like a spring loaded cap for an open fireplace. Hmm

There is absolutely no reason to have it lined until you know what is being installed it would be a waste of money otherwise

 

[mnowaczyk]

There is absolutely no reason to have it lined until you know what is being installed it would be a waste of money otherwise

Contractors are hard to get a hold of, and I really want to make sure this chimney doesn’t fall apart and was planning on having it capped with concrete like the house was done (off at the edge of the picture in the top post). But not knowing what liner needs to come out the top is what I’m struggling with.

If we went with two 8” terracotta, liners, which I believe would fit nicely, they’d have to be stacked all the way to the bottom of the second floor where the chimney gets narrower on both sides. If we did this, I’d still likely have to bust out some terra cotta in order to get metal liners in later.

So I’m thinking that just putting in the largest possible metal liners might make sense. Maybe just doing that with the cheap corrugated stuff would be good enough, as this chimney might never even get used. However, this video shows how going for “light heavy weight” smooth wall makes a ton of sense if you want something strong.

To view this content we will need your consent to set third party cookies.
For more detailed information, see our cookies page.

Accept third party cookies

But again, without having a defined purpose, I understand this is premature.

Could the mason just put a single section of terracotta at the top to be able to make his concrete cap? If so, what would support the Terracotta? Terracotta seems cheap enough, and when I only really need about 30 feet total, about 16’ - 17’ to get to the first floor opening, and about 10” to get to the second floor where I could envision a second opening, it’s hard to call it a waste of money if it will make the chimney usable. Right now, it’s just a single layer of brick that can’t really be safe for any type of use. Maybe I could put a tailpipe exhaust tube into it for working on vehicles, but even that isn’t safe. LOL.

 

[mnowaczyk]

So i called up the HVAC supply house to give them a rundown of what I’m looking to do, and they said they only inventory/carry a 6” stainless corrugated liner that comes in a 35’ length which is $765. This could be an option for me, but they are out of stock, and with this week being a holiday, it sounds like it’s not coming in this week.

That gets me thinking crazy thoughts…

If I’m just looking to build a conduit to later put a smaller liner into, terracotta makes sense, but maybe just using some frigging HVAC duct will make just as much sense for what I’m trying to achieve here. Even that would be better than just a single layer of brick. I could easily stack 8” galvanized HVAC pieces screwed together from the inside out so the screw points don’t stick into the inside of the duct. That seems like it would be better than nothing. But I don’t know, especially if it’s just bound to rot away into a huge mess to need to be removed.

 

[mnowaczyk]

So I talked to Delaware Brick before they closed at noon on Saturday, and they’ve got 8x8 Terra cotta in stock, $20 each. So with less than 30 feet needed, 15 sections, that will be $300. That sounds like it will be by far the most cost-effective option to have some type of liner installed.

Figuring out how to drop the liners in, preferably side-by-side and stacked nicely may be the challenge. I feel like this is some old-world work we are about to embark on, but I’m a little excited.

Making openings to assure that appliances can be hooked up in the future will be a concern too.

The first floor work will require that the liner be cut so the bottom where the liner sits doesn’t become a problem where it necks-down on the first floor. So cutting the middle wall out a little for each of the bottom liners will be required.

The second floor requires giving out where we want to put the hole in the chimney on the inside. That requires determine required clearances to combustible surfaces. I would guess the worst case scenario would be a water heater. A wood stove on the second floor of the garage would make no sense IMO. I’ve seen some neat tiny little wood stoves in a “tent dining” restaurant a few years ago. So MAYBE a tiny little wood burner could be very cool to have. Water heaters can be electric. But maybe also run indirect off a modcon or even a tankless. I had considered planning to buy a modcon for the house and buy an identical one for the garage that I could pilfer for parts in the event of a failure in the house. So really a modcon is the ideal heating option. I could vent that through the short second story chimney. That would likely have far less issues with distance to combustibles. So… maybe wood stove / fireplace on the first floor of the garage and modcon on the second would be the most ideal setup.

To take it to the next step. Since pool equipment is in the garage, the ability to have heat exchangers from both a modcon and also a wood-burner would be awesome,

So not to figure out where to bust into the chimney on that second floor.

 

[stoveliker]

Regardless of this all, if you have wood (roof etc.) or other combustibles touching the 1 course brick of the chimney, any liner needs to be insulated.
So if you put 8x8 terracotta in there, is that the outside or inside dimension? If it's the outside, it's going to be tougher to get a 6" insulated liner down later.

Make sure you can insulate the liner later on, i.e. leave enough space.

I think therefore why put a terracotta liner in there at all? Just have it capped with a solid slab. They can cut a hole later when you are installing an insulated liner? (But my cap knowledge is not great... So I may be saying something stupid.)

 

[begreen]

I think therefore why put a terracotta liner in there at all? Just have it capped with a solid slab. They can cut a hole later when you are installing an insulated liner?

I agree with bholler. It looks well maintained, just not safe for fire. At this point, it doesn't look like anything need be done. If the intent is to plan for the future a blank stainless (or copper) cap could be put on for now. If liners go in, I wouldn't do terracotta. Instead, I'd have 2, insulated, stainless steel liners put in and they would be 6" which covers most modern wood burning appliances.

Seeing this is a garage, check with the insurance company first. They may flat out say no for a wood stove in any place where gas powered equipment is located. However, that may only apply to the first floor. Check with them and the inspecting authority before investing.

 

[mnowaczyk]

Thanks guys. TerraCotta seems like the cheap and fast option to get work done early this week. I guess if there’s a way to just put in and support a small piece of terracotta or other liner at the top of the chimney so we can build the cap, that could be sufficient. Maybe I just buy 1-2 pieces of terracotta or heck, even some 8” round Galvanized duct work to only put at the top right now makes the most sense. That can enable us to build the concrete cap but still get into the chimney easily later. I’d prefer to not have to cut a cap in a few months or years after pouring it this week. Hmm…

Two 8” round galvanized duct work with an and cap on each to keep water out might be all I need.

 

[begreen]

Even with a terracotta liner an insulated stove liner would have to go in to be code-legal for a woodstove. The chimney does not have the required 2" clearances from combustibles that is required. This needs more thought and planning or it will be money wasted.

 

[stoveliker]

The point is you can add a cap/slab/metal sheet closing the whole thing off *without* a (terracotta or other) liner.
Cheapest option with all future options still open.

Just put a slab on top of the brick and be done for now.

 

[bholler]

Thanks guys. TerraCotta seems like the cheap and fast option to get work done early this week. I guess if there’s a way to just put in and support a small piece of terracotta or other liner at the top of the chimney so we can build the cap, that could be sufficient. Maybe I just buy 1-2 pieces of terracotta or heck, even some 8” round Galvanized duct work to only put at the top right now makes the most sense. That can enable us to build the concrete cap but still get into the chimney easily later. I’d prefer to not have to cut a cap in a few months or years after pouring it this week. Hmm…

Two 8” round galvanized duct work with an and cap on each to keep water out might be all I need.

You are really over thinking this. A crown with 2 8" holes formed in it would be fine. A stainless top plate is probably what I would do though

 

[mnowaczyk]

The stucco is/was falling off the sides. The chimney guy didn’t plan on taking it all off, but ended up doing so. I said I’d pay extra for his extra materials. He says he will be sure to leave as large an opening in the top to assure I can fit two insulated 6” liners in there if needed. The most likely thing will be a 6” insulated liner to the first floor for a wood burner I think. However, it would be nice to be able to install a high efficiency boiler on the second floor too. The problem with that is the lack of separation from a hot stainless liner. So I guess PVC for a high efficiency boiler I t he same chimney just won’t work. I don’t know if there are stainless options. I can punch through the stucco wall of the garage instead of the chimney though. So I guess it’s unlikely to really need a second flue from the second floor.

 

[mnowaczyk]

So I am starting to think that getting rid of my old Vermont Stove Company inserts (2x of them) may be harder than I thought and I’ve got them. So why not just keep them and put one of them to use in the garage. It probably makes more sense than spending thousands on an unknown or new one.

The only problem is that they call for an 8” liner. I have about 8.5” so I can possibly fit an 8” liner down there. This kit seems pretty economical, which is probably ok because I will be able to clean this chimney from the top or bottom on my own. https://www.northlineexpress.com/8-...-liner-kit-with-tee-sm825k-adapter-19721.html


I know fireplace inserts are not supposed to be used as wood stoves, but the prospect of getting more stuff before getting rid of what I’ve already got seems a bit problematic.

Also, I have pipe dreams of installing a fireplace insert in my existing heater chimney in the basement of the big house after converting it to a modcon. So maybe having two of these inserts might not be all that bad. Maybe the insert won’t be so loud when running on a concrete floor instead of a fireplace on the first floor.

One major problem with the way I ran the insert in my old house was the Slammer install. I shouldn’t have done that. I expect that with a positive connection, it should be a better insert. I can easily install a smaller liner if I get a wood stove, but these stoves are also cool to be able to run like open fireplaces. I’m not sure many wood stoves have that option.

 

[stoveliker]

Does the 0.5" space allow for insulation?
You need that.


Second I don't understand the "opening at the top" the chimney guy would leave. You don't need an opening now. Just close.it off until you are going to install and use a burner.

 

[mnowaczyk]

Does the 0.5" space allow for insulation?
You need that.


Second I don't understand the "opening at the top" the chimney guy would leave. You don't need an opening now. Just close.it off until you are going to install and use a burner.

Well, since I’ve got two inserts, I think it would be good to try and wrap up this project sooner rather than later if possible… at least know what I’m planning for. Also, if I can get the liner before the scaffolding comes down, that would be easier than doing the job on a ladder.

I found a Vermont Castings Encore (that takes a 6” liner) for pretty cheap. That could be cheaper overall and nicer than the fireplace insert stuff (not counting any money I might get for the inserts whether sell or scrap).

So the insulation, that is required by Code. Correct? I understand that corrugated cheap liners can expand and contract moving against the brick potentially wearing holes in the liner. So that makes sense if using a cheap liner, but with a more sturdy liner, is anything other than vermiculite insulation required? I understand that vermiculite settles, but since I can get to the top of this chimney, I could add more later if that’s a problem.

And all of this is for a garage wood burner which will be technically illegal until I make the garage no longer a garage by at least sectioning off the space if not completely removing the garage door. So trying to meet code for either legal or efficiency could just be wasted money. But the opportunity to feel like this project is “done” and having the possibility of enjoying a fire one time with a cleared out garage sounds cool… especially after spending thousands to re-stucco the chimney.


And BTW, it looks like it was originally a brick chimney with no stucco.

 

[begreen]

I know fireplace inserts are not supposed to be used as wood stoves, but the prospect of getting more stuff before getting rid of what I’ve already got seems a bit problematic.

That is against code and the insurance company is sure to frown on this. Put in a proper and safe wood stove.

The old inserts are not worth much. Try selling them for about $200 in the fall to get rid of them.

 

[mnowaczyk]

So I wonder if finding the connector for an Encore will be possible or if it will need to be fabricated. I think I saw a parts list in one of my searches.

 

[mnowaczyk]

I am back.

We burnt open fires in the open fireplace this past winter and I did a decent job eliminating wood. On the coldest days I was able to sit next to the fire while working from home instead of keeping the whole house warm. I assume a saved a few bucks that way. We had a screen in front of the fire and a spring loaded cap on the clay liner. I swept out the firebox but haven’t swept the chimney yet. The smoke/ash smell would fill the livingroom on odd warm days when I assume the airflow would reverse (or perhaps just stop the natural chimney effect).

This spring, I found a neighbor throwing out a nice glass door front with vent controls and side/top insulation, grabbed it from the trash pile and put it in front of my fireplace. It seems to have helped with the smoke.

I still think about installing an insert or wood stove, but have mostly given up and decided I do not want to move the old Vermont Stove Company Shelburne insert(s) into this livingroom. The fan is too loud. Being able to burn it like an open fire is nice, but the front top outlet makes a positive connection too difficult IMO, and with the current chimney liner and spring cap, and the difficulty in getting to the top of the chimney, I’ve decided to leave things be in the house for now.

I still hope to free up the basement chimney by replacing the heater and water heaters with a modcon setup. That would be a big job and really get into a total basement renovation, rerouting hydronic pipes and AC ducts, all the plumbing and electric too. But I could see a wood stove in the basement being awesome.

That’s the house. I will start a new post on the latest item….

 

[mnowaczyk]

So, being tired of looking at the open top, unused chimney on the garage falling apart showing moisture through stucco every time it rained. So we are having the garage chimney redone.

I would like this chimney to be usable, especially if the garage is converted to livable space. I figure I might as well “get on with it” and have considered:
A) using the fireplace insert(s) I already have and have served me well, potentially building a fireplace to surround it myself with brick and mortar.
B) Buying an old period-correct wood stove that would perhaps look original to the garage. I found one for under $300 that looks like it doesn’t take up too much floor space.
C) VC Encore used stove probably needing repairs and replacement parts, but also under $200. I found more than one of these for sale. So I don’t have too much concern of the difficulty in obtaining them or parts. Having something easy to get parts for sounds nice. It gets me thinking about how it would be ideal to have a catalytic setup even if these do not. I’m going to guess that people scrap the catalytic converters in these just like they get stolen from cars. So finding a catalytic unit cheap used probably isn’t going to be likely, nor is it required for a garage setup that has no daily or even weekly use in any near future.

The last option gets me thinking about how it’s not that hard to find nice stoves and for the basement idea I mention above, getting a second encore could be very cool too. And heck, even in the livingroom one of these could be very cool. However, I guess that’s the last place I’m currently looking to put a wood stove or insert right now. Holes in the wall/chimney seem less of an aesthetic worry. So I’m now all about getting something cheap and useful setup with a liner in the garage this summer/fall. The wheels are turning for the basement and the livingroom hearth too. Maybe when I sell the old house we can afford to do the modcon heater opening the basement chimney project too.

 

[mnowaczyk]

So while I’ve got this really good stucco guy working at the house, I’m thinking I should have him make the holes required for PVC for whatever high efficiency appliances I want to run, putting PVC through the walls. That might be a topic for another forum, but trying to figure out how many potential PVC intakes and vents I want and where is the challenge.

Basement:
- Intake for a modcon heater (3” I believe)
- exhaust for a modcon heater (3” I believe)
- Intake for an OAK (outdoor air intake for a wood burning device). I have no idea what diameter is required for this.
- second Outdoor air intake for a basement wood burning device
- maybe additional intakes and exhausts for additional equipment like a water heater not on the modcon or a second modcon.
- maybe a dryer vent to two and maybe even a basement bathroom fan for basement ventilation too.

I’d have to think through where these items above make the most sense. They also need to be a certain distance from window openings. Some could be run through basement windows like the dryer vent is currently, but ideally we would let the most light in the basement as possible.


Then on the garage, I’d like to have an identical modcon as the house to alleviate the issues with modcon boilers of obtaining parts in a rush. If I’ve got an identical unit in the garage, then I will never have the fear of unobtainable parts. So on the garage:
- 3” intake for modcon
- 3” exhaust for modcon
- bathroom vent needed?
- dryer vent seems like overkill
- water heater exhaust and intake also seems like overkill.

Just thinking it though, knowing NOW is the time to get this done if I have the stucco guy on site.

 

[begreen]

Merged threads to reduce redundant responses

So while I’ve got this really good stucco guy working at the house, I’m thinking I should have him make the holes required for PVC for whatever high efficiency appliances I want to run, putting PVC through the walls. That might be a topic for another forum, but trying to figure out how many potential PVC intakes and vents I want and where is the challenge.

Basement:
- Intake for a modcon heater (3” I believe)
- exhaust for a modcon heater (3” I believe)
- Intake for an OAK (outdoor air intake for a wood burning device). I have no idea what diameter is required for this.
- second Outdoor air intake for a basement wood burning device
- maybe additional intakes and exhausts for additional equipment like a water heater not on the modcon or a second modcon.
- maybe a dryer vent to two and maybe even a basement bathroom fan for basement ventilation too.

I’d have to think through where these items above make the most sense. They also need to be a certain distance from window openings. Some could be run through basement windows like the dryer vent is currently, but ideally we would let the most light in the basement as possible.


Then on the garage, I’d like to have an identical modcon as the house to alleviate the issues with modcon boilers of obtaining parts in a rush. If I’ve got an identical unit in the garage, then I will never have the fear of unobtainable parts. So on the garage:
- 3” intake for modcon
- 3” exhaust for modcon
- bathroom vent needed?
- dryer vent seems like overkill
- water heater exhaust and intake also seems like overkill.

Just thinking it though, knowing NOW is the time to get this done if I have the stucco guy on site.

These specific questions would be better posted in the DIY forum.

 

[mnowaczyk]

Merged threads to reduce redundant responses


These specific questions would be better posted in the DIY forum.

Thanks for the Merge. On the DIY stuff, do you mean a non-hearth.com forum? I understand that ordinary masonry holes don't really need mention here. So many forums. DIY chatroom seems pretty good overall, but HeatingHelp seems like the best place for hydronic I think. I think I can keep it to those three.

Anyway, I think the woodstove and fireplace insert, and open fireplace stuff and even chimney stuff is probably best covered here. So, I will continue with this thread on the Garage Chimney Project.

I'm continuing my collection of junk:
- Two identical ~1981 Vermont Stove Company Shelburne fireplace inserts (8" flue spec)
- A few days ago picked up a total-project unknown model (probably 1450) Vermont Castings Encore for $120. I assumed 6" round was the flue size but now see 8" oval might be correct for the 1450. Hmmm.
- The above has no flue connector, so I bought a 6" round one on ebay for $65 shipped.
- This morning, I picked up 20.5' of smooth-wall 8" with a hinged chimney cap for $200 (plus 2 hours of driving, in which I wish I'd stopped by to look at a Defiant Encore, but spaced out on work calls on the drive home).
- I found a chimney sweep selling 16' of 6' liner (with insulation I believe) for $150. So while I'm tossing money around, I'm tempted to buy this and shove it inside the 8" liner I hope to install.

So, I don't know which direction I'm going. The old VSC Shelburne inserts are something I don't want to bring into the house with the freshly done wood floors and the fact that they sound so darned loud, at least in the old house with the fireplace in the corner. Also, this new house isn't setup as well for fireplace heating IMO with a door frame between the center hall and livingroom that will trap heat in the top foot or so of the livingroom. So maybe just open-fireplace is how I will keep the house. It looks like the basement wouldn't have much more in restriction of rising heat. So the plans for a wood stove in the basement and open fireplace may be the plan I continue with. While the insert could work in the basement, and maybe on the concrete floor it won't be as loud as it was in the old house, it's a beast that is a single piece and there's currently no fireplace in the basement. So, a wood stove (Encore?) would be better in the basement, especially if I can disassemble the whole thing and rebuild it in the basement.

So I'm thinking this all through before I buy more wood stoves. I've got lots of other projects, but if the insert is going into the garage here, that could help with the cleanout of the old house garage which does need to happen.

What's most urgent TODAY:
I need to get a liner down that garage chimney before the mason removes his scaffolding. If I only had 16' of liner, there's not much to figure out as that would only reach the existing 6-foot-high 4.5" hole in the chimney that I'd probably be looking to 90-degree into if that's not a terrible idea. BUT, I've got this 8" liner that could go all the way to the top of a stove or insert. That means I might want to cut a long slot in the chimney for the liner to come all the way to the stove. So I really need to figure out what type of hole I'm making inside the garage.

I can possibly just try to get 16' of the liner into the chimney for now and plan on cutting excess on a ladder later, but it would be best and probably make it easier to get the liner the last several feet if I have the hole in the bottom of the chimney cut out before I start feeding liner. (I will add pics from my phone when I edit this)

Thinking about what type of hole I need to create, I thought I'd research the most ideal option of all, an open fireplace setup. After watching the video below, I think that a high one would be so friggin cool. I would imagine a project like this would be so much fun.

https://www.finehomebuilding.com/pr...asonry-work/video-build-fireplace-brick-brick