Bit of a scare tonight...

[syd3006]

Came home tonight been gone since Thursday. 24 deg. outside, about 45 deg. in the house no heat on since I left. Turned on the heat pump and proceeded to put on a fire in the wood stove. Was unpacking in the bedroom and noticed it was getting smoky in the hallway! Dashed out to the front room where the stove is and smoke was pouring out the closed door, room was full of smoke!! The damper on the stove was wide open but the stove wasn't drafting for some reason, my first thought was the chimney must be plugged! I shoveled the contents of the stove newspaper, kindling and small splits into the ash pail and threw it out on the back lawn, took several trips! Opened windows and doors to let out the smoke then got the ladder and went up on the roof. Took of the chimney cap and shone a flashlight down the chimney, was clean as a whistle! Once the smoke had cleared somewhat I crumpled up a piece of newspaper and lit it in the stove, it didn't burn very well and smoke seemed to be coming into the room so I picked it up with my stove shovel and threw it out in the snow. In all this commotion with the house full of smoke the smoke detector didn't even go off! I am sitting here now wondering what when wrong and what I should do next. I am definitely going to replace the smoke detector, it beeps when you push the test button but smoke doesn't set it off. Can anyone help me out, never had a problem like this before, have been burning in the stove on a regular basis. Am a little leery to try it again, what is wrong and what is the solution.

 

[fossil]

The air outside is cold, and so is very heavy...so even though the air inside is a bit warmer and lighter and wants to rise, it can't, until you establish a draft through the stove/stovepipe/chimney. Try cracking open a window, and twisting up a piece of newspaer pretty tightly, and making sure your stove air controls are wide open, then light the paper and hold it as close as you can get it to the flue outlet in the firebox. You should be able to warm the air in the flue & chimney to the point that it begins to draw on its own. Have more paper ready in case one piece doesn't do it. Have a small fire ready-built for ignition in the stove and get it burning just as soon as you get the flue to draw...then you should be OK. Rick

 

[snowtime]

Ok I think this is not a big problem you just have not seen it before. The house cooled off so much that there was not much difference between inside and out plus the big thing is your stove was so cold that you needed to get a draft going before anything else. If you had put maybe 4 crumpled newspapers in and left the door open a little it would have worked as far as getting the draft going. If not do what some others have done. I am thinking hair drier etc. Your stove is cold so get that draft going first.

 

[LLigetfa]

If there is any breeze, go to that side of the house and open a downstairs window wide open so the wind blows in pressurizing the house. Make sure you are not running a clothes dryer or exhaust fan at the time. If the house has a HRV, make sure the intake vent hasn't clogged with fluff. Service the HRV filters and balance the dampers if need be. Make sure there isn't an open window upstairs drawing air out.

 

[fugazi42]

Snowtime- I started a similar thread a while back with regard to getting the draft going on my Jotul 500 Oslo when it's cold. I got a lot of good responses. The thread is here: https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/22237/

To summarize, I tried the heat gun method and liked it. I didn't try a hair dryer since it puts out relatively little heat while blowing a lot of air and making a mess. The heat gun worked until it got really cold, then even that couldn't get the draft going. I now use the "newspaper stuffed in the chimney trick via the clean-out T" and it works beautifully. Just have a small hot fire ready to start, light the paper, hear the "wooosh!", and start the fire. It's fool-proof.

Josh

 

[eightpilot]

My Oslo did the same exact thing to me a few weeks ago. I was gone for a week and when I tried to start it up it billowed smoke out of every crack and seal on the darn thing. I couldn't open the door because the smoke would just pour out. So I lit up a wad of newspaper and held it until it was really flaming and then opened the door and tossed it in then closed the door right away. This got the draft going in the right direction then once the smoke cleared out of the firebox I started over with some dry kindling and a wax starter. Been working well ever since... 8

 

[Shari]

I've read this thread and the one linked. My dummy question is this: We are about to install our liner in inside our masonry interior chimney. Could we avoid having this same problem with a cold pipe by installing insulated pipe? We will also have a "T".

Shari

 

[branchburner]

I've read this thread and the one linked. My dummy question is this: We are about to install our liner in inside our masonry interior chimney. Could we avoid having this same problem with a cold pipe by installing insulated pipe? We will also have a "T".

Shari

Well, in this instance of being gone several days the whole house was cold, so an insulated liner is not really the big factor. In a normal situation, your interior chimney should have much more residual warmth than an exterior one. So while an insulated liner is always helpful because it will keep your flue warmer and drafting better and gathering less creosote, it is generally less critical with interior chimneys.

 

[oconnor]

Sounds very similar to what I did wrong one day. My story is here. After that, I learned to always check for positive draft before I light the fire / walk out of the room - on my Kennebec, I open the doors while I set my paper/kindling, and if my hand doesn't detect a positive draft, I light the newspaper in the flu path, and then recheck for draft before I get the kindling lit.

All the other comments about windows on the windward side of the house etc will all help get the draft going. But in the end, checking for draft before you light the cold stove will que you to a reversed flow in the flue in a more pleasant way than what I went thru.

If you always check for positive draft in a cold stove (a wet finger held near the flue vent path works well, just like checking the wind direction), and don't walk away until you see solid flames, you will be better off.

As for the smoke detector not going off, you just discovered the difference between an ionization and photoelectric detector - most are ionization detectors, and don't alarm as readily with a cold smokey fire - they are designed around a hot flaming fire. I suspect yours is an ionization detector. You may want to invest in a dual sensor unit - a little more, but worth it.

For Shari - an insulated flue may not prevent this on a cold startup - but it would help during a refiring from coals (That is what happened in my story up in the link above) as the flu would not cool down as quickly, therefore maintaining a better draft longer. Insulating the liner is always a good idea - read the Best Practices link in my signature for more info.

 

[syd3006]

I really appreciate the response's folks. After reading the replies and the additional threads I see this is something that I should definitely be careful about on cold start-ups. House still has a lingering smell of smoke, but I think it will clear away. Left the heat pump on last night and didn't try to light the fire again. I don't think I will light a fire until after work tonight when I have the smoke detector replaced and I have time to deal with any trouble that my arise. Oconner I appreciate your insight on the difference in smoke detectors, I am shocked that there can be that much smoke and a functioning smoke detector will not go off. It's great to be a part of a community like this where answers to concerns such as this can be addressed, thanks again all.

 

[Corey]

It's interesting that you mention you had the heat pump on AND lit a fire in the stove. Have you run in this configuration before? This could be a simple flue reversal, but could there also a chance that the heat pump is pulling air from the house? Typically this wouldn't be the case, but if you have an air duct that runs into a garage, into a separate room with the door closed, or even a duct that might have come loose in an attic or basement, you could be pulling air out of the house which would easily overwhelm any natural draft the stove make.

 

[luv2byte]

We often crack a livingroom window a couple inches open or the front door when we start a fire, it helps the smoke go up not come in the room. Once the first is started in the first 5-10min you can close the door/window and all will be well again.

 

[caber]

Standard Operating Procedure whenever we're starting a fire in a cold stove regardless of the outside temps. Build up the splits and the kindling. Roll a piece of newspaper long-ways and light the end. Put the burning end up the pipe. After 5-10 seconds, you can hear the draft change and take hold. Use the burning newspaper to light the kindling. Never had a backdraft issue this way. Easiest just to do it the same way each time. Fire always starts faster with the pipe pre-heated.

 

[mayhem]

I'm not 100% clear on exactly what a heat pump is, but if you're burning some sort of fuel to make heat in it (like a furnace for example) then you may have put your house under negative pressure while it was running...coupled with a very cold chimney and you're gonna get the smoke coming back inside. Or is a heat pump just the fan for a forced hot air system and you were just running it to circulate the air?

Just a guess.

 

[fossil]

Heat pump's all electric, mayhem. A system that will heat in the winter and cool in the summer. Pretty effective in some climates, not so effective in others, but it really should have no bearing on the problem of establishing draft in a cold stack with a cold house and a cold outside. Rick

 

[LLigetfa]

Generally, a heat pump is an air conditioner in reverse. Many heat pumps use air exchangers and air handling to distribute the heat but there are also radiant floor systems available. Any air handling system that is not properly balanced can cause a negative pressure situation.

 

[fossil]

The air handler unit in a heat pump system is just like that in any other central system. Unless you have a provision for fresh air dilution from outside, which very few residential systems do, all your air handler is doing is taking living space air from the return registers, pumping it through the filter, then the heat exchange unit where the air either gets warmed or cooled/dehumidified, and then returns the conditioned air to the living space through the supply registers. The system does not move air in either direction between inside and outside the house, it simply recirculates inside air through the heat exchanger system. The unit outside the house acts as an evaporator in the winter when the system's refrigerant is trying to extract what heat it can from the outside ambient air to transfer over to the air handler to warm the "house" air going through the other side of the handler's heat exchanger. In summer, the outside unit is a condenser, where the refrigerant is giving up its latent heat of vaporization to the outside atmosphere and then returning to the air handler as a liquid to reabsorb heat from the "house" air. Heat pumps (absent some sort of fresh air makeup feature) do not move any air from inside the house to outside the house or vice versa. The air moves in a closed loop, all internal to the structure...only the refrigerant travels between the internal and external machinery components. Rick

 

[downeast]

May not be any of the above. Yes, get the flue warm with paper, or try a top dwn fire.
We always come back to a cold house where the Oslo is--no plumbing, no backup. The ash door is always left cracked for a startup fire.
The flue is ~ 22' straight up. With plenty of paper on top, kindling under, then splits on the grate the method never gives off smoke. Works even in low barometric pressure days, such as in storms and rain. With the ash door cracked, keep an eye on the fire, not allowing it to get over ~ 500 F on top. Then close the ash door, enjoy.

 

[firefighterjake]

I really appreciate the response's folks. After reading the replies and the additional threads I see this is something that I should definitely be careful about on cold start-ups. House still has a lingering smell of smoke, but I think it will clear away. Left the heat pump on last night and didn't try to light the fire again. I don't think I will light a fire until after work tonight when I have the smoke detector replaced and I have time to deal with any trouble that my arise. Oconner I appreciate your insight on the difference in smoke detectors, I am shocked that there can be that much smoke and a functioning smoke detector will not go off. It's great to be a part of a community like this where answers to concerns such as this can be addressed, thanks again all.

OConnor is spot on . . . which is one reason I prefer having either a dual ion/photo smoke detector or one of each kind in my house.

However, in theory, the folks that make up the NFPA Committee on Smoke Detectors/Fire Alarms (I forget the exact Committee name) have stated that both ion and photo-electrics should go off eventually in time regardless of the type of detector and the research supposedly shows that even though it may be quite smoky and unpleasant both types of detectors will go into alarm mode before the situation gets to the point where it is not possible to escape from a home . . . that said . . . I like having plenty of advance warning regardless of the type of smoke/fire and when I can visually see smoke I want to have a warning going off (especially when I'm sound asleep) and the smoke is to the point where it is unpleasant to smell/breathe I don't honestly care what the NFPA Committee says -- I want to have that early warning well before hand . . . which is probably why most fire experts also recommend having a combination ion/photo unit or one of each kind.

 

[RedRanger]

My only fear is waking up to a cold house. If ya have a big enough firebox, no need to worry about that. Even if all ya have to burn is softwood? hh:

 

[colebrookman]

. . . I like having plenty of advance warning regardless of the type of smoke/fire and when I can visually see smoke I want to have a warning going off (especially when I'm sound asleep) and the smoke is to the point where it is unpleasant to smell/breathe I don't honestly care what the NFPA Committee says -- I want to have that early warning well before hand . . . which is probably why most fire experts also recommend having a combination ion/photo unit or one of each kind.

Great advice "firefighterjake". Most fatalities in home fires are from smoke inhalation. If you're sleeping and the detector does not pick up the smoke, Co will give you the big sleep. There is a big to do in Vt. because of the detector problem. Use both kinds and be safe. Also remember if you have children, even as old as 21, the detectors will not wake them up. Have a plan to rescue them. Today's newer homes with truss construction and petroleum based products, foam, plastic, insulation etc. burn 3 or 4 times hotter than wood. One lb. of wood equals 8000 btus. One lb. of petroleum products equals 16 to 24 thousand btus or more depending. Have a plan . Be safe.
Ed

 

[velvetfoot]

I always seem to get a downdraft in my new-ish house when things cool off.
Maybe there is a leak upstairs? I wonder maybe the bathroom fans?
I'll have to check with the IR gun.

 

[CK-1]

You had a "Cold Stove". I sometimes get that as well, when the firebox seems extremly cold. When this happens, I leave the door open for about 30min so that the warm air in the house will cause a draft back into the stove. Seems like thats a small problem compared to the frozen water pipes you could have had by leaving the heat off during those cold temps..

 

[velvetfoot]

I have to read more about downdraft, but that's a good point about using smoke to track air leaving the house.
IR would be useless there.
I like the fizzing beer analogy too.
Thanks.

 

[firefighterjake]

. . . I like having plenty of advance warning regardless of the type of smoke/fire and when I can visually see smoke I want to have a warning going off (especially when I'm sound asleep) and the smoke is to the point where it is unpleasant to smell/breathe I don't honestly care what the NFPA Committee says -- I want to have that early warning well before hand . . . which is probably why most fire experts also recommend having a combination ion/photo unit or one of each kind.

Great advice "firefighterjake". Most fatalities in home fires are from smoke inhalation. If you're sleeping and the detector does not pick up the smoke, Co will give you the big sleep. There is a big to do in Vt. because of the detector problem. Use both kinds and be safe. Also remember if you have children, even as old as 21, the detectors will not wake them up. Have a plan to rescue them. Today's newer homes with truss construction and petroleum based products, foam, plastic, insulation etc. burn 3 or 4 times hotter than wood. One lb. of wood equals 8000 btus. One lb. of petroleum products equals 16 to 24 thousand btus or more depending. Have a plan . Be safe.
Ed

RE: Vermont's legislation requiring photo-electric smoke detectors

I was able . . . priviledged even . . . to attend this year's NFPA Conference in Vegas (although to be truthful it was pretty hot there and Vegas' glitz and glammor isn't really my thing -- although I did take a rental car out to some state parks nearby which were fantastic).

Anyways, I was able to attend a class offered by the Vermont FD that pushed for the legislation for the Vermont PE smoke detector . . . as you may or may not know it was born out of a multi-fatal fire in their hometown where the ion smokes apparently did not activate . . . although there was some question in the follow-up discussion afterwards as to whether this was due to loss of power, tenants disabling the detectors, placement, etc. As a result of this and some informal studies and experiments several of these firefighters pushed for the PE smoke detector requirement.

Personally, I am of the mindset that both ions and PEs are useful and that neither one or the other is better or worse and as such I have a concern "advocating" or "pushing" one type of detector over another. Instead, I think it is much wiser to suggest to folks that having a detector incorporating both types or one of each type is a better way to keep the family safe.

One minor disagreement . . . not all children fail to hear the smoke detectors . . . but as you have mentioned there have been some studies where a statistically significant number of children do not wake up from their deep sleep when the detectors commonly found in most homes activate. Further studies have shown however that different pitched detectors with varying pitches or (even better for children) detectors with voice prompts (either pre-recorded at the factory or personally recorded by the mother or father) can improve those response rates.