Blaze King Ashford Or Hearthstone Manchester

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BKVP

Minister of Fire
By adding the cast shielding on sides and top, you can reduce ceiling and wall clearance requirements. On the back, same thing, just steel rather than cast iron.

Low clearance requirements often are favored to allow getting the stove "into" the corner or "upgainst" the wall and take up less floor space that can be used otherwise.

That is also why contributors here suggest proper sizing, not just to heat a home, but doing so without the stove room being excessively hot.

BKVP
 

Ashful

Minister of Fire
Mar 7, 2012
18,036
Philadelphia
Soapstone is indeed a better material than iron, with regard higher heat capacity, a trade-off for lower durability. But as bholler already noted, the difference in heat capacity + mass is not enough to make a very substantial real-world difference, against other larger variables between installations and conditions.
 

kennyp2339

Minister of Fire
Feb 16, 2014
6,831
07462
That is also why contributors here suggest proper sizing, not just to heat a home, but doing so without the stove room being excessively hot.
Ding, Ding, Ding, - please take it from my experience - I was one of the guys that bought a stove with little knowledge and installed it in my smaller living room with brand new chimney, my thought process at the time was... "so what if it gets warm, I'll just open a window." well... quality of life circled the drain for 2 years then I bit the bullet and took the same stove and re-installed it in the basement so i could watch tv and not sweat to death.
 
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Ashful

Minister of Fire
Mar 7, 2012
18,036
Philadelphia
Stove too big? I'd have used that as an excuse to put another addition on the house, rather than sticking my favorite appliance in the basement! ;lol
 

bholler

Chimney sweep
Staff member
Jan 14, 2014
31,043
central pa
I know many here don't like heating from the basement but I honestly think it works fantastically
 
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begreen

Mooderator
Staff member
Nov 18, 2005
97,811
South Puget Sound, WA
Having gone from a strongly radiant cast iron stove that was definitely pulse and glide, to a cast iron clad steel stove in the same location, the difference in room and house temperature swing between the two is exceptional. The radiant stove heated up the space faster and it cooled down faster when the fire died down. I agree that this may be in part due to the convective design. Having run our friend's Summit, I can say there is a similar effect, though the Summit is a bit more reactive. Still, that could be perception. Different house, insulation, etc. FWIW, I've been in a few homes with a T6 or T5 installed and they are experiencing a similar effect. These are heavy stoves to start with so there is a lot of mass regardless of cladding.

Note that the Manchester 8362 with the catalyst added is a new design. We have little user reporting on how this stove heats or is maintained over time. Most of the reviews have been for the non-cat version of this stove. The Hearthstone GM80 is similar and may offer more insight. The Ashford has a decade of user history. Most user reports are favorable if the draft is with spec. Another thing to think about with the Manchester is clearance for the side load door. It is primarily an E/W loader. This should be taken into consideration for a corner or fireplace installation due to side door loading. It can be loaded through the front door, but that is not as convenient. That said, it is a great-looking stove and may turn out to be a good fit. If you end up choosing it, please let us know how it works out over the winter.
 
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Jhelmick

New Member
Jun 6, 2022
31
Charlotte, VT
This has been a great thread for me as I am considering the Manchester 8362 and the Chinook 30.2. I don’t want to hijack the thread but maybe piggy back so everyone doesn’t have to repeat themselves. I’m very interested to hear what people think of the new Manchester.

I currently have a Summer’s heat 50-SHSW01. It’s a 2020 EPA stove with about a 2.4cuft box. It’s for sure a pump and glide style stove.

Our house (in Vermont) is a 1700sqft 1.5 story 20 year old house with average insulation and I’ve been working on sealing it up. So it’s not the most tight house but not drafty by any means. The stove is in the living room where it is open to the kitchen and dining room. The living and dining room is vaulted at about 20ft. The master is upstairs. The spare bedroom is in the corner downstairs (hardest to get heat to) but is hardly ever used. We heat with a heat pump down to 35. Below that I use the stove so we burn regularly December through March. We have a forced air propane furnace set at 68 that I try to keep off as much as possible.

We get great solar gain so we typically don’t have a fire from 10am to 3pm as it gets to be 80 inside even when it’s teens outside.

Our current stove does well down to 20. It does ok down to single digits. Below 5 it struggles and needs a good bit of help from the furnace. For this I would like a stove with more BTU/Hr.

My other complaint is that it is “pump and glide”. If I load it at 9pm, we get a lot of heat from 9-12. If it’s above 25 out, this is sometimes too much heat. Then heat output drops from there. It seems stove output is pretty low when it’s coldest outside at 4am so the furnace kicks on if it’s teens or lower outside.

We get great solar gain so we typically don’t have a fire from 10am to 3pm as it gets to be 80 inside even when it’s teens outside.

It would be nice to have a stove that can put out more even heat throughout the night so I’m still getting heat from 4-7am.

My stove is EPA rated at 11k-24k BTU/hr. Both the Chinook 30 and Manchester are in the range of 12k to 35k. It seems 50% higher BTU on high should be adequate on those cold nights. Box size for both is 2.9cuft so I can fit in a bit more BTU for a longer burn. We know the Chinook can do 30 hrs, and the Manchester says 30 hrs Heatlife (which sounds like soapstone/cast iron conduction rather than burn time) but I have heard that is wildly inaccurate. The same review described the new Manchester as a secondary air stove that has a cat added. They said they feel it adds efficiency and burns cleaner but doesn’t have long burn times. I don’t need 30hr burns times. It would just be nice to be able to spread the heat evenly over 10-12 hrs rather than a pump and glide effect. Appreciate any insight.
 

Jhelmick

New Member
Jun 6, 2022
31
Charlotte, VT
I should add that the wife’s priority is that it doesn’t stick into the room very far, which the Manchester wins due to its E/W oriented box. Additionally, with the stove in our living room, we both highly value a nice view through the glass, which it sounds like the Manchester wins there, too.
 

BKVP

Minister of Fire
Let me beat someone to this....

You will not get 30 hour burn times this time of year. You can, but your home may not be as warm as you'd like.

Our thermostat is known for the even heat, regardless of which way you go, both companies make great products.

Besides, Soapstone is beautiful!

EPA's NSPS has two definitions for 2020 approved stoves. Those with a catalytic element (catalytic) and those that do not (secondary combustion). I think both qualify for the Federal 25C tax credit.

For you current stove, have you tried to load really large pieces to reduce surface area exposed to combustion? It can really impact burn times.

BKVP
 

begreen

Mooderator
Staff member
Nov 18, 2005
97,811
South Puget Sound, WA
For you current stove, have you tried to load really large pieces to reduce surface area exposed to combustion? It can really impact burn times.
Yes, between burning large, thick splits and the cast iron jacket on the T6, we have reduced if not eliminated pulse and glide room temp swings.
 

Jhelmick

New Member
Jun 6, 2022
31
Charlotte, VT
Let me beat someone to this....

You will not get 30 hour burn times this time of year. You can, but your home may not be as warm as you'd like.

Our thermostat is known for the even heat, regardless of which way you go, both companies make great products.

Besides, Soapstone is beautiful!

EPA's NSPS has two definitions for 2020 approved stoves. Those with a catalytic element (catalytic) and those that do not (secondary combustion). I think both qualify for the Federal 25C tax credit.

For you current stove, have you tried to load really large pieces to reduce surface area exposed to combustion? It can really impact burn times.

BKVP
Yeah, totally makes sense. 30hrs on low during shoulder seasons. I don’t even burn really in the shoulders so I’m not looking for 30hrs. Just a more even 10 or 12.

The thermostat is what’s so appealing with your stoves.

Soapstone is nice but with the Manchester it’s inside the box and not visible. Not a big deal as we prefer a nice black, more modern looking stove- hence the Chinook.

Yes, both secondary air and cat stoves can qualify. I was trying to say it’s a 2020 EPA secondary air stove, sorry for any confusion.

And yeah, I’ve played around a good bit with different things on my stove. Split size makes a big difference. The other thing that seems to make a difference is loading E/W instead of N/S. The primary air inlet is up front in the center. It seems E/w loading slows air movement slowing combustion and makes it last longer. It can make it a little tougher to shut all the way down without choking it out too. It’s finicky.
 
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begreen

Mooderator
Staff member
Nov 18, 2005
97,811
South Puget Sound, WA
We get maybe a 2-4º room temperature swing between loadings and a 12 hr burn in milder weather, 8 hrs. when it's cold. In non-cats look at the cast iron jacketed Jotul F55 and the Pacific Energy Alderlea T6.
 
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Jhelmick

New Member
Jun 6, 2022
31
Charlotte, VT
We get maybe a 2-4º room temperature swing between loadings and a 12 hr burn in milder weather, 8 hrs. when it's cold. In non-cats look at the cast iron jacketed Jotul F55 and the Pacific Energy Alderlea T6.
I was actually looking at the T6 earlier based on your previous post. Intriguing stove, but I think it will stick out into the room too far for my application. The F55 has some impressive heat output and could work better for my situation.
 

begreen

Mooderator
Staff member
Nov 18, 2005
97,811
South Puget Sound, WA
Have you looked at Woodstock stoves? A Progress Hybrid combines good hybrid cat performance with a traditional soapstone look.
 
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Hoytman

Minister of Fire
Jan 6, 2020
541
Ohio
We get maybe a 2-4º room temperature swing between loadings and a 12 hr burn in milder weather, 8 hrs. when it's cold. In non-cats look at the cast iron jacketed Jotul F55 and the Pacific Energy Alderlea T6.
2-4 degrees temp swing isn’t bad at all. Which stove is that? The T6 you have? How many sq ft?
 

stoveliker

Minister of Fire
Nov 17, 2019
6,483
Long Island NY
Be aware you'd have to also make smaller fires in the Chinook in the shoulder seasons; the solar gain will be a beast if your Chinook is still simmering at 12k BTU after a night of burning.

So you'll always have to be good at estimating the duration your fuel is going to take to burn down.


That said, my Chinook has zero (or half a degree) of temperature swings in my home for my current 18-20 hr burns. Going from 68 to 64 (or 72 to 68) would be uncomfortable to me, as I dress different for these temps, also depending on whether I am actively doing anything or sitting and reading
 
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Ashful

Minister of Fire
Mar 7, 2012
18,036
Philadelphia
I have a BK 30 in an addition measuring roughly 1600 sf gross / 1200 sf net, which also suffers from a lot of solar gain, as one 500 sf room at the center of it has glass all around. The BK 30 is ideal on cloudy days, I load it at 6pm and set the dial for a 24-hour burn. It's usually just enough to keep the temperature right around 69/70F without central heating. I have a programmable thermostat set to bring that wing of the house up to 70F before the rest of the family wakes in the morning, which is just enough to level out the space. Ideal

On sunnier days, this can be a bit much, it can get a little too warm for us (eg. 76F) by sunset. So, before I load each evening, I look at the sun forecast more than the temperature, for the next day. If it's sunny and cold, I do 2/3 load. If it's sunny and warmer, I do 1/2 load, and if it's cloud and cool the next day... full load. I also have the option of doing a full load and setting the dial a little higher for more heat on those few blistering-cold nights of the year.

Now, I'm down near Philadelphia and you're up in Vermont. Normal winter for us is 20F overnight and 35F midday. "Blistering cold" for us is -5F to +10F overnight, and 15-20F afternoons. I'm sure you get colder, and your space is 45% larger (assuming you posted net s.f.), so you might be doing full loads when I'm doing half loads, and two loads per day when I'm doing a full load per day, on that stove.
 

Jhelmick

New Member
Jun 6, 2022
31
Charlotte, VT
Have you looked at Woodstock stoves? A Progress Hybrid combines good hybrid cat performance with a traditional soapstone look.
I’ve not until now! We actually don’t like the look of soapstone. But I do like the sounds of the Ideal Steel lined with soapstone. Seems like it might work well for me. Unfortunately the wife hates the appearance even with all the customizability. Apparently that one is out.
 
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begreen

Mooderator
Staff member
Nov 18, 2005
97,811
South Puget Sound, WA
I’ve not until now! We actually don’t like the look of soapstone. But I do like the sounds of the Ideal Steel lined with soapstone. Seems like it might work well for me. Unfortunately the wife hates the appearance even with all the customizability. Apparently that one is out.
No problem, my wife is of the same mindset. She does not like the look of soapstone and gives a strong thumbs down to the quirky steel stove styling. Their engineering is good. It's too bad they don't collaborate with nearby VC for a nicely styled cast iron jacket.
 
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BKVP

Minister of Fire
No problem, my wife is of the same mindset. She does not like the look of soapstone and gives a strong thumbs down to the quirky steel stove styling. Their engineering is good. It's too bad they don't collaborate with nearby VC for a nicely styled cast iron jacket.
They did at one time have OEM work done for them at that facility. It was easier to go with Belgium!
 

Jhelmick

New Member
Jun 6, 2022
31
Charlotte, VT
You guys have introduced me to a lot of stoves I didn’t know existed and I’ve had fun researching all of them. With the requirement that it doesn’t stick into the room too far (which is reasonable considering the room size and layout), I think I’m mostly going to be stuck with E/W loaders. That eliminates a lot. I looked at a T5 in person (they didn’t have a T6 on the floor)- really liked it but definitely too deep.

I looked at the VC defiant as well. It had a lot of cool features but sounds like a lot of maintenance and potential for problems I want to stay away from.

The Jotul F55 is intriguing. Good box size, emissions and output and would fit my space. The HHV efficiency seemed disappointing considering everything else. I wonder if this affects the new rebate starting Jan 1?

I was interested in the Woodstock Ideal Steel until the wife shot it down for appearance.

After considering everyone’s thoughts, here’s where I’m at. I need more heat and more controllability than what I have. Case in point last night. I loaded the box N/S instead of E/W. I also didn’t have as big of splits as I normally do at night and I was too lazy to go outside to restock. I put in seven 3-3.5 inch x 16 splits (normally pack it with six to eight 4-4.5inch splits). I let it get going then gradually shut it down completely at 400 degrees. It went along there for an hr, then it ramped to 650. Had to shut the damper to get it to calm down and ran the fan to cool the box some. Of course it was too hot in the house but by 2am it was a bit chilly. (Went to bed at 30 degrees, woke up at 7 to 22 degrees). I still had lots of coals and 300 degree stove by 7am.
When I get it right with log orientation and size it ramps to 500-550. Again too much at first for mild nights and doesn’t last as long as I’d like.

I need more control and more even heat distribution over time. Also I need to get more heat when it’s -15 outside.

The reason I keep coming back to the Chinook is controllability. I think I could talk the wife into it even though it would take up more room in the space. It has 50% more btu at the high end so I think it would provide enough heat. It has a 2.9 box so it should be able to provide heat through the night. I don’t burn in the shoulder seasons-I don’t burn above 35 degrees. So I don’t need a super long burn. I tend to need 10-12 hrs of medium heat or 8hrs of high heat. It seems the BKs can do this?

Still thinking about the Manchester as well. Would fit my space great. Like the looks, soapstone lining, cast jacket and convection ducts between the box and jacket. Seems it should have similar heat output. I was wrong earlier- the box is only 2.45 which is the same as mine now. Interestingly my manual says capacity is 35lbs while the Manchester says 60lbs but same box size. Obviously depends on species, etc. I weighed my typical nighties splits and I usually pack 50-60#s in of Cherry, maple, birch, ash and oak. The box being same as mine makes me worry about burn time. A review I’ve heard elsewhere says he only gets 6-8 hrs of burn. I also suspect it still doesn’t have great control. Also, I have a wall to the left but not right. 16 inches of clearance is fine to the left but I suspect that means I couldn’t use the side door. Sounds like previous versions of the Manchester had left and right options but not the 8632.

I briefly looked at the GM 80. Again, love the looks and would fit my space. Same output as the Manchester and Chinook. 3cuft box is a plus. I actually like the sounds of all that better than the Manchester. I stopped looking when I saw the 8inch flue. My chimney (framed, inside, about 26ft) and current double wall pipe is 6 inch. I’m assuming it’s not a good idea to reduce the 8 inch outlet to a 6 inch pipe. Any thoughts on this? Would that increase or decrease draft? Make the stove not function properly?

Overall that’s where I’m at.

Happy Turkey Day everyone
 

Jhelmick

New Member
Jun 6, 2022
31
Charlotte, VT
No problem, my wife is of the same mindset. She does not like the look of soapstone and gives a strong thumbs down to the quirky steel stove styling. Their engineering is good. It's too bad they don't collaborate with nearby VC for a nicely styled cast iron jacket.
Totally agree. That would be sweet!
 

begreen

Mooderator
Staff member
Nov 18, 2005
97,811
South Puget Sound, WA
I tend to need 10-12 hrs of medium heat or 8hrs of high heat. It seems the BKs can do this?
Yes, they can, but based on the requirements it doesn't sound like a cat stove is needed. The Lopi Liberty, Osburn 3500, Pacific Energy Summit or Alderlea T6, all fall in the 12 hr. mild weather burn and 8 hrs in cold weather but they have a higher top-end output. In hybrids, the Manchester or GM80, the Regency 3500 are available options.
 

Ashful

Minister of Fire
Mar 7, 2012
18,036
Philadelphia
A Woodstock with VC collaboration would make for one hell of a nice stove, assuming they went with VC styling on Woodstock engineering, and not the other way around! Unfortunately, for anyone who has worked in engineering or manufacturing business long enough, the possibility for this going wrong is greater than the likelihood of it going right.
 
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