Buy a Woodlot

[Henz]

I have been hearing alot about the price of logs/split wood and how it is increasing. and how wood dealers are hard to come buy etc. What about this, maybe, just maybe, those of us who are no doubt going to burn wood to heat our homes should look into the purchase of property that has free standing wood on it. the way I see it, depending the the property, you could obtain your wood from it for "x" amount of years, and then when you are done with you, you could always sell it, particularly as a building lot. It would be interesting to hear if anyone has done this before. I ahve 50 acres of mixed hardwood but mostly hemlock and pine. I probably have 20 years worth of hardwood on it. I havent really even cut a hardwood tree and this is my second year of burning. I figure that right now, or at least the past two years I am getting decent deals on logs delivered so I am basically just saving the trees that I currently have on my property. When the time comes that delivered wood is too expensive, I will simply start harvesting from my property. any thoughts??

 

[Backwoods Savage]

50 acres of mixed hardwoods? You'll never run out in your lifetime. For sure I think it could pay, if the price was right, for someone to buy a 5 or 10 acre woods and do as you propose.

 

[Henz]

well like I said, by guess is that 80% of it is hemlock and pine

 

[Backwoods Savage]

Hang on to it. Even that pine might be worth a lot in a few years the way things are going.

 

[colebrookman]

That's what we did. We have plenty of hardwood and mother nature just keeps on planting. They say a five acre wood lot can supply enough heat for a family as long as needed. Barring beetles, bugs etc. But in many places lots are sold an acre or less. According to the National Woodlands magazine more than 80% of the 300 million Americans live in cities, with fewer connections to rural or natural areas. A bleak picture for our future but we wood mavericks will keep on .

 

[Henz]

thats interesting. I guess it all depends on your basile sp? density. or the amount of next generation trees you have on the property. Well that makes me feel better, cause I have a lifetime of wood then!

 

[Jags]

thats interesting. I guess it all depends on your basile sp? density. or the amount of next generation trees you have on the property. Well that makes me feel better, cause I have a lifetime of wood then!

I have also heard 7 acres is the magic number. I am sure it depends on whether you burn 3, 5, or 7 cords per year, and location of the timber. That being said, with 50 acres, you should never have to worry.

 

[savageactor7]

I have 30 acres and have harvested about 25-30 FC's for the last 30 years...my wood lot is in better shape now than when I started back in 77. If I were Adirondackwoodburner I save some coin and start harvesting.

When we 1st got here it was like a triple canopy jungle with elder brush etc now I nearly have 5 miles of intersecting trails. My priority of cutting goes like this; biggest trees, dead trees, multi trunked trees, junk trees that I don't want more of I can't name some of those evasive species so I wack 'em with the brush hog or weed wacker when they're small.

80 years ago this was a potato farm..then it was abandoned...so it was a wild wood lot. Within the last 3 years I've noticed 'white oak' trees appearing so I put red engineer tape on trees like that cause I want to save 'em to enhance our ratio of hard wood which as of now consists of elm, cherry, ash and maple. Got about 75 marked so far. (I still remember the 1st oak leaf we saw on a trail back in the fall '03 but as hard as we looked couldn't find the tree.)

But we'll burn anything though even willow and poplar is good at certain times of the year...like right now ie when in 30 in the morning but may get close to the 50's by afternoon.

 

[Henz]

thats great advice.. I hav been considering haveing the property logged of the hemlock and white pine just to make way for future hardwood. The hemlock and pine are so large the small hardoods taht are under it cant get enough light to grow. I do have quite a nice layer of hardwoods trees taht are like 15' tall but only about 3-4" in dia and I bet they are 10 years old!

 

[savageactor7]

I was watching Axemen last night and they were saying this is the worst time (lowest prices) for loggers ever. But it's a good idea when the market goes up to harvest those fur trees...hardwood will always be worth more in the long run.

 

[Henz]

yeah I agree..I know a couple of loggers I should contact them to look at my property

 

[lumbajac]

I have been hearing alot about the price of logs/split wood and how it is increasing. and how wood dealers are hard to come buy etc. What about this, maybe, just maybe, those of us who are no doubt going to burn wood to heat our homes should look into the purchase of property that has free standing wood on it. the way I see it, depending the the property, you could obtain your wood from it for "x" amount of years, and then when you are done with you, you could always sell it, particularly as a building lot. It would be interesting to hear if anyone has done this before. I ahve 50 acres of mixed hardwood but mostly hemlock and pine. I probably have 20 years worth of hardwood on it. I havent really even cut a hardwood tree and this is my second year of burning. I figure that right now, or at least the past two years I am getting decent deals on logs delivered so I am basically just saving the trees that I currently have on my property. When the time comes that delivered wood is too expensive, I will simply start harvesting from my property. any thoughts??

From a forest management point of view, I would say you should be managing your property whether you are burning firewood or not. Managing a forest for optimal growth is like compounding interest. Taking out the bad investments (weak or dead trees, low quality trees, etc) leaves more room for growth (due to increased sunlight, more space for root structure, more water to less trees,etc.). An immediate benefit for managing one's forest would be firewood production, especially on 50 acres... you might think you have 20 years of hardwood available, but managed properly you should have a sustainable firewood operation for yourself virtually forever through proper harvesting, which leads to increased growth, some death, more harvesting, more growth, etc. I don't think I would even consider the pine and hemlock for firewood. I would suggest managing those for maximum growth and timber characteristics. Then, when they begin to reach their full potential, sustainablly harvest them, get a sawyer with a portable mill to your woodlot, have him cut the timber into lumber of various grades, keep some for yourself, and sell whatever is left to pay for the sawing and you should have a few dollars left for yourself.

Check out http://www.timbergreenforestry.com/Video Article.html and www.timbergreenforestry.com. Lots of good ideas - order his book Full Vigor Forestry and/or the DVDs. The book will teach you how to manage your property sustainably.

lumbajac

 

[Henz]

thats good advice. There are a few portable mill guys around here. Put it this way, I have mature hemlock that is probably 40" plus in diameter and the pine is close to that or more as well. Never thought about the sawing of it though, although the pulp prices here are decent

 

[Bill]

A number of my friends have bought land, that they new had good timber, sold enough timber to end up with the land at little to no cost. I have lots of woods around my house and I am able to heat with the trees that blow over in wind storms. Matter of fact I lose more trees than I can burn. So some of my wood is going to get punky. I have a three year supply already and I have not started bucking and splitting this year.

As you thin out the dead trees, it makes more room for young trees to thrive. But young hard wood trees will heat your grandchild's house not yours.

I bought land around my cabin the last few years and last winter I had the black walnut logged and I got enough to pay for one parcel of land. But wood prices are way down. A friend of mine owns a mill and he has laid off 50% of his employee's. I asked him the other night when he expects it to turn around and he said a few years yet. By the way when I logged, no one wanted oak, or black cherry. So they left those lay in the field and only took the walnut. But down the road hardwood is worth money. As soon as construction of new homes takes off, wood will jump in price.

 

[savageactor7]

Adirondackwoodburner if you had a big enough tractor you could probably haul out the trunks to a staging area but 40" in diameter but I dunno...sounds like the work for a log skidder. Besides if you think limbing a hardwood tree is hairy wait till you try doing that with an evergreen. I have and it's not a pleasant chore.

lumbajac is correct you have to manage your lot, left on it's own nature will not do the trick. What lumbajac said is almost word for word what a DEC agent told me when he came up to give me a permit to remove beavers that were flooding me out back in the 70's...

...I did what he advised and my woodlot is better now than when I first got here.

 

[JustWood]

thats good advice. There are a few portable mill guys around here. Put it this way, I have mature hemlock that is probably 40" plus in diameter and the pine is close to that or more as well. Never thought about the sawing of it though, although the pulp prices here are decent

If your hemlock and pine is that big, it is beyond prime . It's losing value daily. Red rot ,wind shake, and hollow. I would advise doing something soon. Pulp is out of the question being that big except for the smaller top logs. If you have any Amish in your area that would be a good place to start. Amish will pay more for it and probably skid with horses. Don't expect to get rich on softwood ,just get it out of your woods. It's a weed. I wouldn't get a paid forester to handle a low doller sale like this. Ask around and find a reputable logger or amish mill to handle it. You'll be money ahead.

 

[Henz]

thanks, no amish around here though

 

[johnsopi]

Land @ me is running over 100k an acre so that would not work well.

 

[Henz]

yeah, definatly not cost effective

 

[lumbajac]

thats good advice. There are a few portable mill guys around here. Put it this way, I have mature hemlock that is probably 40" plus in diameter and the pine is close to that or more as well. Never thought about the sawing of it though, although the pulp prices here are decent

Don't pulp the pine... especially if red or white pine... especially if as big as you say they are... especially if they are straight. Big, straight pine is in high demand by Scandanavian scribe-fit log home builders and smaller diameter, but straight are very marketable for utility poles if such a buyer is within a couple hundred miles of you. No matter how decent the pulp prices are there is no way they'll be the price for sawlogs. As someone else said, you may have rot, disease, etc. being as big as they are. However, only you know your trees and if this is the case or not as they stand on your lot. With that said though, I've milled white pine and other species that have been quite large only to get a few good boards from the outer wood and find rot in the middle of the log. Quite often aspen will end up the same... looks like a nice, straight, healthy tree standing on the stump but find that its rotten in the middle once you knock it down and mill into it. I've also had both aspen and pine snap in two as they hit the ground if their middles have been rotted out... again, nice looking trees, but rotten in the middle. The hemlock will likely be less valuable as it is not generally a species that is highly sought after. However, it can make good fence posts since it is quite dense. If you have the hemlock sawn into boards you generally would use it green since when dry it is nearly impossible to hammer through... although you can also drill pilot holes. Another think to consider would be to leave the hemlock grow. Hemlock can grow to 600+ years old and is an excellent wildlife habitat tree given its canopy cover and shelter characteristics. Wildlife habitat is another aspect of your property that you may want to consider in the overall management scheme. Lastly, you don't have to harvest all trees at once. In your situation, I'd look at harvesting poor quality trees first to open up the healthier trees to more sunlight and water... again, money in the bank. Then, look at harvesting the good mature trees as they near the end of their productive life or as they die off.

Don't just take my word for it thought. There's a lot to managing a forest properly and a lot of different techniques to consider based upon your wants and needs. I would start by ordering a copy of Full Vigor Forestry as mentioned previously. You could also probably get some free forestry assistance from your local conservation district if they have a forester on staff.

Regardless, look at beginning to start some management regimes this summer to grow your investment... it sounds like a valuable piece of property both ecologically and financially. Managing it properly will make it that much more valuable, but it will take 10's of years to compound its value as trees and the property they grow upon are a longterm investment.

Best,
lumbajac

lumbajac

 

[lumbajac]

A number of my friends have bought land, that they new had good timber, sold enough timber to end up with the land at little to no cost. I have lots of woods around my house and I am able to heat with the trees that blow over in wind storms. Matter of fact I lose more trees than I can burn. So some of my wood is going to get punky. I have a three year supply already and I have not started bucking and splitting this year.

As you thin out the dead trees, it makes more room for young trees to thrive. But young hard wood trees will heat your grandchild's house not yours.

I bought land around my cabin the last few years and last winter I had the black walnut logged and I got enough to pay for one parcel of land. But wood prices are way down. A friend of mine owns a mill and he has laid off 50% of his employee's. I asked him the other night when he expects it to turn around and he said a few years yet. By the way when I logged, no one wanted oak, or black cherry. So they left those lay in the field and only took the walnut. But down the road hardwood is worth money. As soon as construction of new homes takes off, wood will jump in price.

Morso makes some good points regarding the current timber market. Prices are indeed down significantly and not looking to rise in the near future. But think again as your woodlot as an investment. Leave it on the stump to grow as prices will inevitably come up again... when they do, harvest if you have harvestable timber. In the meantime, start thinning out the poor quality trees and cut it up into firewood if a good firewood species. You may have enought firewood in the end to sell some of it to pay for gas, parts, etc.

lumbajac

 

[Henz]

definatly wont sell any hardwood, that is mine for firewood.

 

[JustWood]

thats good advice. There are a few portable mill guys around here. Put it this way, I have mature hemlock that is probably 40" plus in diameter and the pine is close to that or more as well. Never thought about the sawing of it though, although the pulp prices here are decent

Don't pulp the pine... especially if red or white pine... especially if as big as you say they are... especially if they are straight. Big, straight pine is in high demand by Scandanavian scribe-fit log home builders and smaller diameter, but straight are very marketable for utility poles if such a buyer is within a couple hundred miles of you. No matter how decent the pulp prices are there is no way they'll be the price for sawlogs. As someone else said, you may have rot, disease, etc. being as big as they are. However, only you know your trees and if this is the case or not as they stand on your lot. With that said though, I've milled white pine and other species that have been quite large only to get a few good boards from the outer wood and find rot in the middle of the log. Quite often aspen will end up the same... looks like a nice, straight, healthy tree standing on the stump but find that its rotten in the middle once you knock it down and mill into it. I've also had both aspen and pine snap in two as they hit the ground if their middles have been rotted out... again, nice looking trees, but rotten in the middle. The hemlock will likely be less valuable as it is not generally a species that is highly sought after. However, it can make good fence posts since it is quite dense. If you have the hemlock sawn into boards you generally would use it green since when dry it is nearly impossible to hammer through... although you can also drill pilot holes. Another think to consider would be to leave the hemlock grow. Hemlock can grow to 600+ years old and is an excellent wildlife habitat tree given its canopy cover and shelter characteristics. Wildlife habitat is another aspect of your property that you may want to consider in the overall management scheme. Lastly, you don't have to harvest all trees at once. In your situation, I'd look at harvesting poor quality trees first to open up the healthier trees to more sunlight and water... again, money in the bank. Then, look at harvesting the good mature trees as they near the end of their productive life or as they die off.

Don't just take my word for it thought. There's a lot to managing a forest properly and a lot of different techniques to consider based upon your wants and needs. I would start by ordering a copy of Full Vigor Forestry as mentioned previously. You could also probably get some free forestry assistance from your local conservation district if they have a forester on staff.

Regardless, look at beginning to start some management regimes this summer to grow your investment... it sounds like a valuable piece of property both ecologically and financially. Managing it properly will make it that much more valuable, but it will take 10's of years to compound its value as trees and the property they grow upon are a longterm investment.

Best,
lumbajac

lumbajac

NYS has some very good quality white pine. I would agree on marketing the white pine as saw logs and top logs as pulp .The size of these trees is what would concern me as a timber buyer. Wind shake is very common in large softwoods here because of their height. Hemlock on the other hand is pretty poor quality in NY ,thats not to say that there aren't good pockets of it here and there. The pulp markets in eastern NY are pretty good, I have heard as high as $80/ton which would be better than saw log prices. Any way you look at it if he wants to see max income and firewood production from his lot the softwoods need to bo removed.

I have bought several pieces of property for timber management purposes and the first thing I did was drop all the hemlock and beech to lay and rot. None of it was marketable as the property had been clear cut hard 15 years ago. The growth I got from the cherry after opening it up was incredible.

Lumbjac is right you might be able to get some free advice from NYS DEC. I wouldn't sign up from any landowner program they might try to push but they should have some good advice.

 

[RedRanger]

Land @ me is running over 100k an acre so that would not work well.

Yes,I`m thinking the same thing,land is too expensive. Just half a mile from me a 11 acre wooded property with nothing on it,not a house,nor a well or anything just sold for 500k.. It would be sweet though to be able to harvest one`s own firewood.

 

[lumbajac]

thats good advice. There are a few portable mill guys around here. Put it this way, I have mature hemlock that is probably 40" plus in diameter and the pine is close to that or more as well. Never thought about the sawing of it though, although the pulp prices here are decent

Don't pulp the pine... especially if red or white pine... especially if as big as you say they are... especially if they are straight. Big, straight pine is in high demand by Scandanavian scribe-fit log home builders and smaller diameter, but straight are very marketable for utility poles if such a buyer is within a couple hundred miles of you. No matter how decent the pulp prices are there is no way they'll be the price for sawlogs. As someone else said, you may have rot, disease, etc. being as big as they are. However, only you know your trees and if this is the case or not as they stand on your lot. With that said though, I've milled white pine and other species that have been quite large only to get a few good boards from the outer wood and find rot in the middle of the log. Quite often aspen will end up the same... looks like a nice, straight, healthy tree standing on the stump but find that its rotten in the middle once you knock it down and mill into it. I've also had both aspen and pine snap in two as they hit the ground if their middles have been rotted out... again, nice looking trees, but rotten in the middle. The hemlock will likely be less valuable as it is not generally a species that is highly sought after. However, it can make good fence posts since it is quite dense. If you have the hemlock sawn into boards you generally would use it green since when dry it is nearly impossible to hammer through... although you can also drill pilot holes. Another think to consider would be to leave the hemlock grow. Hemlock can grow to 600+ years old and is an excellent wildlife habitat tree given its canopy cover and shelter characteristics. Wildlife habitat is another aspect of your property that you may want to consider in the overall management scheme. Lastly, you don't have to harvest all trees at once. In your situation, I'd look at harvesting poor quality trees first to open up the healthier trees to more sunlight and water... again, money in the bank. Then, look at harvesting the good mature trees as they near the end of their productive life or as they die off.

Don't just take my word for it thought. There's a lot to managing a forest properly and a lot of different techniques to consider based upon your wants and needs. I would start by ordering a copy of Full Vigor Forestry as mentioned previously. You could also probably get some free forestry assistance from your local conservation district if they have a forester on staff.

Regardless, look at beginning to start some management regimes this summer to grow your investment... it sounds like a valuable piece of property both ecologically and financially. Managing it properly will make it that much more valuable, but it will take 10's of years to compound its value as trees and the property they grow upon are a longterm investment.

Best,
lumbajac

lumbajac

NYS has some very good quality white pine. I would agree on marketing the white pine as saw logs and top logs as pulp .The size of these trees is what would concern me as a timber buyer. Wind shake is very common in large softwoods here because of their height. Hemlock on the other hand is pretty poor quality in NY ,thats not to say that there aren't good pockets of it here and there. The pulp markets in eastern NY are pretty good, I have heard as high as $80/ton which would be better than saw log prices. Any way you look at it if he wants to see max income and firewood production from his lot the softwoods need to bo removed.

I have bought several pieces of property for timber management purposes and the first thing I did was drop all the hemlock and beech to lay and rot. None of it was marketable as the property had been clear cut hard 15 years ago. The growth I got from the cherry after opening it up was incredible.

Lumbjac is right you might be able to get some free advice from NYS DEC. I wouldn't sign up from any landowner program they might try to push but they should have some good advice.

Some good points above. Sounds like NY has some different market characteristics going on with pulp in high demand. I'll second that one looks to max income from firewood production, timber sales, etc. Get the most out of your property that you can... financially and otherwise. I'll also second to be weary of any state landowner programs or incentives that the NYS DEC may try to sell you on. A lot of these programs sound great up front and may even offer some financial assistance, but they can come back at you with certain criteria that you MUST follow such as timber harvesting via a certified plan and other issues.

Good luck,
lumbajac